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jc55
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 03/14/2013 : 16:32:19
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Hello, This is my first post. I discovered this forum last Saturday. I consider this discovery most timely, as I've been pondering a TMS issue and eagerly solicit the feedback of all forum members. First, I need to set the stage, i.e., my TMS background.
I've dealt with lower back pain for over 40-years. Last Sept, I encountered sciatic pain on the left side of one thigh. Pain like I'd never experienced before. The trigger was 'improperly' lifting a new 70-lb freezer. It was a bulky thing - made picking it up awkward. The next morning, I woke up with BIG sciatic pain. Soon I was ingesting 2400 to 3200 mgs Ibuprofen to quell the pain. I followed the standard protocol: orthopedic doctor exam, review of MRI [herniated discs, stenosis, degenerated discs = all 'causes' of sciatica]. My refusal to consider steroid injections led me to PT. The PT was functioned as a placebo. However, I soon became aware of several disconcerting things: 1) Robin McKenzie recommended extension exercises [selected by PT therapist]; 2) Paul Williams, MD recommended flexion exercises. These were direct opposites!; 3) I learned that if 100 folks with no back pain were treated to an MRI, approx 80 would exhibit 'problems' similar to mine. My placebo effect was rapidly wearing off.
Then, a genuine God-send occurred - I discovered "Healing Back Pain." I knew THIS was the answer! The timing was perfect. I was primed for TMS. I also purchased "The Mind Body Prescription"; "The Divided Mind"; and Dr. Sopher's "To Be or Not To Be - Pain Free." I purchased Sarno's $100 DVD - and his 3 CDs on "Healing Back Pain." All this arrived by Feb 1st. You might be thinking this guy went "Whole Hog." I did. I'd discovered something that actually made sense. For 6-weeks, I've devoured Dr. Sarno's materials - literally all day long, 7 days a week for 6 weeks. I kept rotating and re-reading the three Sarno books. [Being retired made that easier]. By mid-February, all sciatica pain in my thigh had been eradicated. It worked just like Dr. Sarno said it would. I was/am a firm disciple of Dr. Sarno.
Now, the reason for my post - and my earnest solicitation of the viewpoints of the forum members. I call your attention to page 88 of "The Mind Body Prescription." Dr. Sarno's comments on page 88 grabbed my attention in a big way. Following is an excerpt:
[In Dr. Sarno's own words]: "A number of years ago I had an episode of dental nerve pain that could not be explained. After suffering it for a few months, I was looking at anatomical drawings of the nervous system with patients one day when I came upon a particularly vivid depiction of the nerve supply to the teeth, branches of the fifth nerve, and immediately wondered if the dental pain might be TMS of the trigeminal nerve. I concluded that it was - and the pain was gone in less than forty-eight hours. This is an example of the therapeutic power of awareness as will be described in Part III of this book."
I had no difficulty in locking onto the reality of TMS and sciatic pain. There were thousands of documented cases in evidence. My conscious mind had ample leverage to issue orders to my unconscious mind. It amounted to a 'slam-dunk' 'case closed' issue. My unconscious mind capitulated. No more sciatic pain.
TMS and the trigeminal nerve? My conscious mind is acutely aware of only one documented case, albeit Dr. Sarno himself. It's as though my unconscious mind is looking back at me with the question, "You expect me to take on my powerful unconscious counterpart with one documented case and expect him to rollover?"
This is my dilemma. This is why I'm seeking all the forum feedback I can get. I need enough feedback to establish a healthy consensus of the reality {or lack thereof} of TMS and the trigeminal nerve. I need to know if I'm looking at a horse of a different color - or, just another example of the far-reaching TMS.
More than two years ago, I bit on something hard. I felt something akin to a faint electrical 'bite' from a lower molar. Ever so often, when chewing I'd feel a 'twinge.' This twinge has come-and-gone for nearly 2½ years. Over time, the sensation has grown to discomfort/pain. You can well imagine, I Googled a great deal. What's been called 'cracked tooth syndrome' surfaced as a potential cause. More specifically, a below gumline crack. These are nearly impossible to detect. X-rays often will not reveal it. There's no evidence of a crack above the gumline. My regular dentist thumped, prodded and employed a 'bite-stick.' No pain nor evidence of a cracked tooth. I'm sure the dentist looks at me with a jaundiced eye - and is probably convinced I'm imagining things. Another dentist looked and poked and gave up. But as time passed, the discomfort has escalated. I can employ my own version of a bite-stick - no pain. There's pain only at times when chewing. Cold/hot normally doesn't effect. [this is a lower second molar - #31]
To further add to the mix: about a month ago, I was scheduled for a teeth cleaning session {regular dentist's office}. In advance I requested the dentist 'check again' for evidence of a crack in #31. I let him know if he could confirm/strongly suspicion it was cracked - I wanted it extracted. [below gumline cracks are poor candidates percentage wise for root canal procedures]. The hygienist never said boo about seeing a crack. When she finished, the dentist prodded with dental pick {only}. He then remarked, "It's cracked - I can see and spread the crack with my dental pick." At which point, the hygienist appeared to agree. The dentist then recommended he install a crown on the molar to prevent the crack from spreading. I made an appointment for the procedure. After reflecting what/how everything unfolded, I canceled the appointment. End of talks with dentist.
My take: I think he got tired of all the 'nonsense' and decided once and for all to bring this 30-month game to a close - and maybe sell a crown job in the process. IMHO, the whole scenario had a funny/phony ring to it.
NOW, my query/dilemma: I'm 80-90% convinced this is TMS of the trigeminal nerve as described by Dr. Sarno on page 88. However, as we all know, 80-90% is 10% short of convinced. No worth-his-salt unconscious mind is going to rollover at the conscious mind's 90% positiveness. This requires 100% conviction. Currently, my results are varying - depending on the forcefulness of my conscious mind-set. I have observed one thing: whereas before the pattern was consistent - intermittent pain only when chewing. Now, there are times I experience hot/cold reactions and no chewing pain. According to Dr. Sarno, this reflects the unconscious is attempting to 'relocate' the pain - a good sign. I've elected to inform my unconscious mind {with vigor}, I refuse to be deceived by the tooth pain and am proceeding to ignore any and all counterfeit tooth pain. Heretofore, I obviously favored chewing on the left side of my mouth.
This is why I'm seeking max feedback. If the forum consensus is, "Yes, it's just another example of TMS" - I can add the forum's consensus to my one documented case of TMS and the trigeminal nerve being responsible for my tooth pain. That will greatly raise my 'convinced' level towards the required 100%.
If on the other hand, the consensus favors the 'horse of a different color,' I'd like to know that too.
Based upon all the above, do you recommend I take the same approach as with the eradication of my sciatic leg pain? Should I give TMS the benefit of the doubt - refuse to accept the 'but what if the molar really is cracked' possibility? From my point of view, the hit-and-miss molar pain bears all the earmarks of TMS. It's just that little if any has been said or documented relative to TMS of the trigeminal nerve and the fifth cranial nerve.
I apologize for the 'long read." It seemed necessary. Thanking you in advance for your response(s) ~ james
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2013 : 17:03:47
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James, welcome to the madhouse and to someone with a similar problem. Numerous dentists have found nothing wrong and yet and yet... It's enough to drive one insane especially when you've licked other pain issues. I remember reading Sarno's words on this and deriving some comfort but no benefit.
I do believe it's TMS.
And a particularly ugly form at that but hey, if the man himself beat it I'm sure we can.
It's late here and high time I checked out for the night. There are some dance floor divas who are worth watching. Search for wavy soul, she's the forum's tooth fairy.
More later.
Bed beckons. X |
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RikR
USA
94 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2013 : 17:45:37
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| Have you considered a bruised jaw bone from clenching - especially during sleep |
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jc55
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2013 : 17:51:07
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| No, but I will ~ james |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 08:50:24
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James,
Rik is right. Clenching is invariably the culprit, (certainly so in my case), and an unconscious behaviour driven by stress. However it's not confined to night-time clenching, if you tune into yourself, you may notice you do it during the day too. The jaw is a very typical place to hold tension, and many people including Louise Hay, suggest it is where we store unexpressed anger. This ties in with both the fight aspect of the sympathetic nervous system and Sarno's conviction that unconscious rage lies behind it all.
Before finding Sarno I engaged in the usual round of reading and exploring, and through this learned a lot about the various muscles involved. I also experienced some success with trigger point work, particularly of the masseters. Before this I couldn't bear anything to touch my face. It was terrifying and crushing. Aside from this sole success with tp's, the main thing I took from conventional books was that intense stress and a revved-up nervous system were the cause.
It seemed entirely logical to address these issues and it was at this point that I discovered Sarno. Like you I craved some mention, some assurance that my pain was tms and became quite demoralised by the endless back-cure cases. I felt left out in the cold and on a limb.
About a year or so ago I found this forum and lurked. I searched for fellow sufferers and fell upon Wavy Soul. Her story is dramatic and worth reading. I'll see if I can find it in the archives for you to post later. While not experiencing anything like this myself, I am sufficiently comforted and assured this is tms.
One brief story to illustrate. A couple of years ago, over a period of days, my pain levels ratcheted. I could have quite happily decapitated myself to be free of it. Went to the dentist like a good 'un and he took a look and told me my wisdom tooth was coming through and had caused a minor infection. Minor! God help sufferers of anything serious! I was sent home with anti-biotics and an appointment to have it removed. The deed was done. Now I must point out that all this adventure is happening on the same side, my tms and wisdom tooth are buddies.
After the little op and healing time had elapsed, my old pain returned. Dentist can still find nothing wrong but tells me I have stupidly tight jaw muscles. My necks not too clever either.
All in all a particularly unpleasant variant of tms. Having had and healed from tendonitis and back pain I know it is possible. However I feel bound to say that I believe tms has settled here because I find it so frightening. Back pain, as awful as it was and as vulnerable as it left me feeling, simply didn't generate this level of fear.
Hope I haven't rambled too much and that you derive some measure of what you're seeking from my words. (Also my apologies for typos and spelling errors. Having lost one post I'm firing without a read-through and edit.) |
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jc55
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 09:40:25
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RikR and plum,
Food to 'chew' on here. Plum, I appreciate your follow-up on RikR's query. Interesting! I'd never ever thought I clenched or ground my teeth during sleep. However, the hygienist who didn't make any comment relative to a visible crack - did make a comment which was a first to me. She asked if I was aware I ground my teeth? I replied, "I don't grind my teeth." She replied it probably occurred during my sleep. She added that my teeth bore 'wear' signs of grinding. "News to me." I'd totally forgotten what I perceived as an non-relevant bit of questionable information.
However, since both of you [RikR and plum] made mention, maybe it is relevant. In fact, as I'm typing this reply, I'm experiencing a touch of left jaw joint 'sensitivity' {very light pain}. A first for me. I don't normally experience pain/discomfort in my jaw joints. It's as if the TMS is 'moving-about' - a sign the unconscious is aware of being hassled by the conscious and is reacting.
To be honest, I'm not at all sure how to process/proceed with this new insight. {??} ~ james |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 10:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by jc55
...Now, the reason for my post - and my earnest solicitation of the viewpoints of the forum members. I call your attention to page 88 of "The Mind Body Prescription." Dr. Sarno's comments on page 88 grabbed my attention in a big way. Following is an excerpt:
[In Dr. Sarno's own words]: "A number of years ago I had an episode of dental nerve pain that could not be explained. After suffering it for a few months, I was looking at anatomical drawings of the nervous system with patients one day when I came upon a particularly vivid depiction of the nerve supply to the teeth, branches of the fifth nerve, and immediately wondered if the dental pain might be TMS of the trigeminal nerve. I concluded that it was - and the pain was gone in less than forty-eight hours. This is an example of the therapeutic power of awareness as will be described in Part III of this book."
...TMS and the trigeminal nerve? My conscious mind is acutely aware of only one documented case, albeit Dr. Sarno himself. It's as though my unconscious mind is looking back at me with the question, "You expect me to take on my powerful unconscious counterpart with one documented case and expect him to rollover?"
...NOW, my query/dilemma: I'm 80-90% convinced this is TMS of the trigeminal nerve as described by Dr. Sarno on page 88.
Hi James, I believe I've seen "trigemental" mentioned here, have you done a "SEARCH", using the tab above? You might find some useful discussion.
No one at a message board can dx you, only lay the odds on it. It's about 80% it could be TMS given the percentages from Dr. Sarno's clinical experience. TMS can effect any bodily part that has nerve endings and blood-flow--it's a mind-game the subconscious gremlin plays with us, and not a "science".
If the Good Doctor told me my "trig" was TMS, that's all I would need and I would walk out of his office "cured". You are different, try a search there have been discussions of tooth problems, trig, etc.
G'luck!
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
Edited by - tennis tom on 03/15/2013 10:38:54 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 10:44:52
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quote:
Originally posted by jc55
...I'd never ever thought I clenched or ground my teeth during sleep. However, the hygienist who didn't make any comment relative to a visible crack - did make a comment which was a first to me. She asked if I was aware I ground my teeth? I replied, "I don't grind my teeth." She replied it probably occurred during my sleep. She added that my teeth bore 'wear' signs of grinding. "News to me." I'd totally forgotten what I perceived as an non-relevant bit of questionable information.
My previous hygienist told me the same thing, she also told be she suffered from "new building syndrome". She was constantly pressuring me to purchase a $500 night guard--(maybe she was a Liberian princess?). My solution was I changed dentists offices and they have NEVER mentioned it.
Cheers,
tt/lsmft |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 10:45:15
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James, do nothing. Muse on things a while but do bear in mind that by it's very nature, clenching is an unconscious behaviour. I didn't realise I clenched for a long time but realised I'd probably done it on and off for years. My best advice, irrespective of whether you clench or not, is to focus on reducing your stress. Clenching = tension = tms. I've used a hypnosis recording in the past and it focuses primarily on relaxing deeply before sleep.
I'm embracing a combination of Sarno, Claire Weekes and Ace1's keys. Since doing so my pain levels have fluctuated a lot, diminished, moved a bit, flared...
In sum I suspect that focusing on clenching is equivalent to the myriad of do's and don'ts of back care, in that you blame it and start accomodating the behaviour etc. Classic tms bear-traps.
I'm still in the thick of it so this is a missive from the field but I hope your faith in tms is renewed. |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 10:50:02
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
quote:
Originally posted by jc55
...I'd never ever thought I clenched or ground my teeth during sleep. However, the hygienist who didn't make any comment relative to a visible crack - did make a comment which was a first to me. She asked if I was aware I ground my teeth? I replied, "I don't grind my teeth." She replied it probably occurred during my sleep. She added that my teeth bore 'wear' signs of grinding. "News to me." I'd totally forgotten what I perceived as an non-relevant bit of questionable information.
My previous hygienist told me the same thing, she also told be she suffered from "new building syndrome". She was constantly pressuring me to purchase a $500 night guard--(maybe she was a Liberian princess?). My solution was I changed dentists offices and they have NEVER mentioned it.
Cheers,
tt/lsmft
Oy vey. I endured 'recalibration' (they file your teeth down so the proud teeth don't cause problems when grinding.) Ker-ching! £600. Works about 60-70% of the time. Welcome to the exception. |
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jc55
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 11:17:11
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Originally quoted by tennis tom:
quote:
Hi James, I believe I've seen "trigemental" mentioned here, have you done a "SEARCH", using the tab above? You might find some useful discussion.
HI, tennis tom, I researched "trigemental" and came up with one - mine. I've searched for "trigeminal" and explored the few instances relating to 'trigeminal.' Not a very fruitful endeavor.
Originally quoted by tt:
quote:
My previous hygienist told me the same thing, she also told be she suffered from "new building syndrome". She was constantly pressuring me to purchase a $500 night guard--(maybe she was a Liberian princess?). My solution was I changed dentists offices and they have NEVER mentioned it.
Interesting . . . ~ james |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 11:28:05
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James, I've fruitlessly searched for this too. You're more likely to find something useful under *tmj*. Not exactly the same but it flags related issues. I had a look for the particular post by wavy that I have in mind but it's proving elusive. Maybe someone else can help? It's the post where she was heading a workshop and completely licked her pain but my memory may not be serving.
Incidentally, my dentist assured me that the pain would cease once I stopped clenching. Good days, where my jaw is calm, bear this out.
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balaenoptera
Germany
15 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 12:55:52
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I knew a woman, the former girlfriend of a close friend, who had severe trigeminus neuralgia. I don’t know for sure how this resolved because I didn’t have contact with her during that time. The only thing I can tell is that numerous dentists and other practitioners could not find a reason for it. One day this tooth was the culprit, the other day another one. She had several teeth removed to no avail.
And this woman also had very difficult personal traits, she was/is a perfect worrier for example. Her pain disappeared several years ago but she still has other health issues. In my opinion it was psychologically induced, but I’m no expert. |
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jc55
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 13:22:12
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quote:
Originally posted by balaenoptera
And this woman also had very difficult personal traits, she was/is a perfect worrier for example.
Hi balaenoptera,
Who me a worrier? Unfortunately, that's one of my best foibles. I'm a worrier par excellant. Hard for a life-long worrier not to worry. That heads my list of projects. I've discovered I fit the TMS profile over-and-over. ~ james |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 13:34:35
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Is there something stressful playing out in your life right now?
Aside from the various dimensions of personality I know that my problem is in no small way associated with an ongoing stress. My dentist knows and agrees but can do nothing to stop the madness. What's happening in your world? |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 13:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by balaenoptera
I knew a woman, the former girlfriend of a close friend, who had severe trigeminus neuralgia. I don’t know for sure how this resolved because I didn’t have contact with her during that time. The only thing I can tell is that numerous dentists and other practitioners could not find a reason for it. One day this tooth was the culprit, the other day another one. She had several teeth removed to no avail.
And this woman also had very difficult personal traits, she was/is a perfect worrier for example. Her pain disappeared several years ago but she still has other health issues. In my opinion it was psychologically induced, but I’m no expert.
balaenoptera,
Thanks for that. From my readings it appears that TN is only ever resolved through psychological means, aka tms work. |
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jc55
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 14:35:42
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quote:
Originally posted by plum
Is there something stressful playing out in your life right now?
What's happening in your world?
plum,
Good questions. The one 'happening' I'm aware of is my aging 75-yr old body. I've always been concerned with 'physicality.' Everything seems to be on the wane. Yes, I know I have much to be thankful for in the 'physical' area - but none-the-less, it stresses me. I'm sure it's a source of anger/frustration. With the aging body comes the loss of physical strength for one. Loss of strength takes me back to the inception of my sciatic leg pain - lifting the freezer [trigger? Yes]
Adjusting to my aging body is another one of my projects. But, yes, it's a stressor ~ james |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 15:09:50
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James, I believe ageing is a huge stressor. This alone suffices. (Transitions and physical changes are the pits!) However I do favour the soulful approach and feel the world has lost more than we can comprehend with our cultural fascination with youth. God Bless the elders. In my world you are venerated and deeply respected for your wisdom and while this cannot change the natural, physical process of maturation, it renders it exquisite. I'm finding peace with where I am in life, may you do so too.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2013 : 18:50:22
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quote:
Originally posted by jc55
Originally quoted by tennis tom:
quote:
Hi James, I believe I've seen "trigemental" mentioned here, have you done a "SEARCH", using the tab above? You might find some useful discussion.
HI, tennis tom, I researched "trigemental" and came up with one - mine. I've searched for "trigeminal" and explored the few instances relating to 'trigeminal.' Not a very fruitful endeavor.
 Ha, ha, I miswrote "trige-MENTAL" instead of "trigeminal", that's what I call a REAL Freudian slip, how apropos to TMS!
Have a look at SteveO's book on page 355, he mentions TN in his Appendix A.
SteveO also mentions fear of ageing as a huge source of TMS.
G'luck,
tt/lsmft
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
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Edited by - tennis tom on 03/15/2013 20:13:00 |
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plum
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2013 : 06:30:12
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Tom, think 'mental' is entirely appropriate. *smiles*
Thanks for the reference. |
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TMS and the trigeminal nerve
