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pspa123
672 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2012 : 19:23:20
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It seems millions of people visit chiropractors for chronic pain, and if we are to believe chiropractors (and some of their patients), they successfully treat millions of them. Just one example of such claims -- here is a guy touting his successful treatment of all sorts of maladies through correction of the "atlas subluxation."
http://mindenchiropractic.com/as.shtml
Now obviously TMS would teach that any such structural thing, even if it existed, is largely irrelevant to chronic pain. So how do we explain his claims of success? Lying? Confirmation bias? Placebo?
Chiropractic, acupuncture, etc. etc. never did a thing for me, but I remain curious about it. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2012 : 20:06:56
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| I know a lot of people swear by it, but I say PLACEBO! I have my own chiro story, which I have mentioned on here. During a 10 year period many years ago, I went to a chiro on a regular basis because of chronic back pain. It was only after insurance stopped covering it and I stopped going that the back pain disappeared once and for all. |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2012 : 20:07:03
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| Temporary placebo |
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SteveO
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2012 : 20:37:42
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People have no idea how powerful the mind is regarding placebos. That's why I put those examples in my book. The last rites given to a dying man, who dies, then it's discovered he wasn't even sick enough to die, and was the wrong guy.
The woman confined to a wheelchair in the double blind Parkinson's study who was given sham surgery. She began skating and running because she thought she was "healed." 2 years later they told her she wasn't given an embryonic cells, only an incision mark.
The 2 psychiatrists who on a bet wanted to show how powerful the mind was, told a man at a diner he looked sick, the man went home, crawled into bed and died.
The famous Klopfer/Krebiozen case cited by many books, including me and the good doctor.
This can be seen in every type of chiro, magnet, glucosamine and new fad on the block. And you can see people swearing by these things all the time. They also don't know it was their belief that altered their brain's perception of events.
The same works for the nocebo. I can increase certain people's pain on the spot by feeding them doubt in themselves. Not intentionally of course, but I learned very early on to be careful of the words I chose or people fell off the planet at the drop of a doubtful hat.
Steve |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2012 : 20:52:57
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I have no doubt placebo explains many of the quack therapies being touted on the internet. There is no other logical explanation, this crap can't work in the ways claimed. Some of my favorites are Matrix Energetics, Field Control Therapy, and Nutri-Energetic Systems, all of course based on quantum physics (a red flag if ever there was one). If you want a laugh, look these up, or look on the website drkaslow.com.
The Klopfer case is amazing, how is this not widely known and discussed? |
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SteveO
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2012 : 14:16:40
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One of my favorites was the magnets. They even lowered your golf scores, the commercial proclaimed. I laughed when they said it made your balance better. But as you watch the ad-video they pulled hard sideways without the magnet to make the subject fall, then they put the magnet on and then pulled straight down along the body line so the person wouldn't fall. They made a fortune on those.
Then there was Dr. Frank's mouth spray, it even worked on the dog's pain when you sprayed it in his mouth. I don't know what the dog told them about his pain but that dog was fooled by a placebo. Dog's are just too naive sometimes. That's why we love them.
But I'm glad you brought this topic up. It's important in most cases that people realize that you're actually looking for the placebo, like in the Klopfer/Krebiozen case. The word placebo has taken a beating and in some ways has become the pejorative. But all healing is based in belief. The word placebo means "I will please." Physicians are seeking that very thing that the individual feels will help them, or is pleasing them, so the person's own healing mechanism will ratify the process. Many things that work for one group do not work for another group. The reason is unknown but it appears that what the person believes is working, is the thing that will work.
Who really cares if chiropractic adjustments stop disabling pain? I was so relieved after many of them. I was desperate in agony, and I believed the snapping sound was taking pressure off nerves. The placebo worked short term. If you're dying of cancer and they give you sterile water, who gives a rat's furry behind if it's false? The key is if your immune system accepts it, no matter what the mechanism.
So the physician is a facilitator seeking that very placebo that the person will suddenly, and unconsciously, accept. The placebo may lead to permanent healing, depending on various factors. Someday we will discover that chemotherapy was a placebo, and as unnecessary as back surgery. IMHO.
Ultimately it is the person who heals himself, with or without the aid of a good facilitator, like Ace. How many people here wish they had a doctor as unpretentious and open minded as him? There is hope.
Steve
good video, but long, check out the 6:20 mark if time is your enemy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zy7D7X4Ejg&feature=relmfu
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2012 : 18:22:04
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My MD brother told me tms treatment is placebo too. He said my strong belief in Sarno, Claire Weekes, Herbert Benson,... is what relieve my pain. As long as I still believe in their teachings I will stay well. :)
He said it has the same effect as accupunctures and chiropractic. If you believe in the health provider, if you trust his treatment method, if he has earned his "expert" credential (years of education and practice), the outcome usually good.
I gave up arguing with him long ago. He is still waiting for my back pain to come back to prove him right.... it's going to be a long long wait for him.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
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pspa123
672 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2012 : 21:08:42
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Sorry I just had to post one of my favorites, from an MD's site.
For a quack therapy, it is imperative to talk about detoxification.
Photon Directed Action (PDA)
Shining light through a homeopathic vial has been shown to promote the release of a toxin or resolution of a condition if the homeopathic solution resonates with the body. Photon Directed Action (PDA) has been reported to help detoxification, reduce allergic reactions, reduce autoimmunity, and promote an effective response to and apparent resolution of infections. PDA has been reported to enable much more rapid and deeper detoxification of specific toxins compared to other techniques. Some medical doctors using PDA report clearing of chronic deep-seated infections, resolution of auto-immune reactions, and elimination of allergies.
In Photon Directed Action (PDA), light passing through a glass vial containing a specific homeopathic substance is swept over your body enabling/directing you to release toxins and/or resolve infections. The substances in the vial are determined by kinesiologic or electrodermal screening (ASYRA). A PDA treatment takes 5-10 minutes. PDA is a safe and rapid way to "remove" infections or toxins in 24 hours that otherwise might take 50-100 days to release.
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Chiropractic
