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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
 Posted - 10/06/2011 : 21:38:34
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Hey TT,
Thanks, and yea... I've looked into the test. My feelings on it are mixed.
Pros: I absolutely believe these items can cause stress, and many positive life events cause internal turmoil, even though we don't realize it. So recognizing that stress or attempting to be aware of it is very important. I think a lot of things on this list are accurate, and may surprise people. I think it's a good idea to try to quantify our state of life to the best extent we can, and even if tests like this provide SOME insight... they're probably worthwhile.
Cons: Being imprisoned has got to be worse than being divorced. Sorry, but it just has to be. I saw my parents get divorced and it was hard all around, but not as bad as prison, I'm sure. This scale seems to be questionable in a few places, and frankly... I agree with the notion that all of us would have different scores for different events. There are also a lot of events left off this list. What about the death or sickness of a pet? That would devastate a lot of people. What about flood damage to your home? (Etc.)
So, in short... the one-size-fits-all nature and some omissions leave me a little skeptical. On the plus side, I think it illuminates a lot of life events we might otherwise overlook as potential sources of stress.
Sarno (and others) focus on unconscious events... but they also recognize that daily, tangible stresors also contribute. This list might shed a little light on both.
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2011 : 21:41:40
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Oh, and I should mention that my score was between 225-275 (or so)... depending on how far I went back.
In the past 5 years, I've had a kid, gotten married, had a step-son come into my life, taken on a full-time staff position instead of free-lancing and purchased a home here in Los Angeles.
So, I'd be foolish to suggest that all of this is unrelated to my current condition. (Though until I discovered TMS, I was somewhat doing that.)
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2011 : 07:11:38
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| Just to note, the R-H test was devised in 1967! The world has changed a whole lot since then. For instance, the Summer of Love, rock and roll, the Viet Nam war, etc., etc., etc. A revised R-H list, taking into account a changing world and mores, I'm sure would look much different. Things have changed a lot. Divorce no longer holds the stigma it once did, the prison system is now run by the criminals and being Bubba's bitch is not an attractive thought, single parenting is now more the norm, cell phones, pc's and world-wide terrorism, just to name a few examples. I would not use the 1967 list verbatim, it's more for example. Dr. Sarno has written four books and in each one he revises his theory. TMS is how our MINDBODYS respond to changes in our homeostasis. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 10/07/2011 08:53:49 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2011 : 07:40:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
...But where is the role of distraction in this? Our thoughts toward the situation are already unwanted. Distraction from what? Something worse? What could be worse than a pancreatic cancer diagnosis?
Getting angry at your doctor and shooting up the hospital and then committing suicide would be worse. At least with a dx like pancreatic cancer you have conscious choices for various courses of action. Life becomes real and finite. You know what direction you are headed in and can choose an alopathic or alternative medicine approach or a combination of both.
We just had a case in Cupertino, CA., where a seemingly normal man, cracked and murdered three of his co-workers, wounded seven others and then committed suicide by cop--that's much worse than getting a sore back and staying home in traction, until things emotionally cool-off, doing the "Western form of meditation" as Deepak Chopra characterizes it. The role of distraction is to give us a physical or affective TMS symptom to prevent us from acting out what we would REALLY like to do to our "friends", loved ones, colleagues and the a-hole who just cut us off in traffic. Those "primitive" reactions are not socially acceptable in our society generally. That's why when someone asks us how we are?, we "normally" say "Great", rather then how we really feel or they would think we were "crazy".
I don't know if that at all answers your concerns Hillbilly, but I feel better.
Cheers,
tt |
Edited by - tennis tom on 10/07/2011 08:48:16 |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2011 : 07:47:30
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One over-arching macro-stressor is one that was less evident than in 1967 is the social isolation of so many.
Having been on this orb before 1967 and after, it's amazing how much daily life has changed in so many ways.
One way I think of it, was a few summers ago the power just cut off in the middle of a beautiful July night. No storms were going on, nothing.
Suddenly people appeared on their front porches (no AC) and it looked like a time warp. When the power flipped on everybody went inside.
I will walk in the evening sometimes and the sidewalks and streets are deserted.
I know this isn't everywhere, but it is in so many places. People are "socializing" on Facebook -- or so they think.
I still think of that great book title, "Bowling Alone". I'll have to read it sometime. I think it reports on this situation.
I think one can debate the reasons for so many psychogenic illnesses. One camp can think repressed emotions, another current stressors. It's all probably tied in -- as we are the sum of all parts since birth -- and even before. We are walking and breathing tips of icebergs or the flower of plants with roots that go all over the place. The failure of so many social institutions -- family, church, community, government-- keeps many on the fringe.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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pan
United Kingdom
173 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2011 : 09:52:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
One over-arching macro-stressor is one that was less evident than in 1967 is the social isolation of so many.
Having been on this orb before 1967 and after, it's amazing how much daily life has changed in so many ways.
One way I think of it, was a few summers ago the power just cut off in the middle of a beautiful July night. No storms were going on, nothing.
Suddenly people appeared on their front porches (no AC) and it looked like a time warp. When the power flipped on everybody went inside.
I will walk in the evening sometimes and the sidewalks and streets are deserted.
I know this isn't everywhere, but it is in so many places. People are "socializing" on Facebook -- or so they think.
I still think of that great book title, "Bowling Alone". I'll have to read it sometime. I think it reports on this situation.
I think one can debate the reasons for so many psychogenic illnesses. One camp can think repressed emotions, another current stressors. It's all probably tied in -- as we are the sum of all parts since birth -- and even before. We are walking and breathing tips of icebergs or the flower of plants with roots that go all over the place. The failure of so many social institutions -- family, church, community, government-- keeps many on the fringe.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
Nice post and I totally agree.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2011 : 10:58:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
One over-arching macro-stressor is one that was less evident than in 1967 is the social isolation of so many.
Having been on this orb before 1967 and after, it's amazing how much daily life has changed in so many ways.
One way I think of it, was a few summers ago the power just cut off in the middle of a beautiful July night. No storms were going on, nothing.
Suddenly people appeared on their front porches (no AC) and it looked like a time warp. When the power flipped on everybody went inside.
I will walk in the evening sometimes and the sidewalks and streets are deserted.
I know this isn't everywhere, but it is in so many places. People are "socializing" on Facebook -- or so they think.
I still think of that great book title, "Bowling Alone". I'll have to read it sometime. I think it reports on this situation.
I think one can debate the reasons for so many psychogenic illnesses. One camp can think repressed emotions, another current stressors. It's all probably tied in -- as we are the sum of all parts since birth -- and even before. We are walking and breathing tips of icebergs or the flower of plants with roots that go all over the place. The failure of so many social institutions -- family, church, community, government-- keeps many on the fringe.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
I agree with you on this isolation thing as one of the main contributor to human's mental illness. The rate of mental illness in China has gone way up along with their economic success. Rich and middle class people in China start to spend money to buy their "privacy" at the same time making their doctors richer. |
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Javizy
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2011 : 11:11:52
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
The role of distraction is to give us a physical or affective TMS symptom to prevent us from acting out what we would REALLY like to do to our "friends", loved ones, colleagues and the a-hole who just cut us off in traffic. Those "primitive" reactions are not socially acceptable in our society generally. That's why when someone asks us how we are?, we "normally" say "Great", rather then how we really feel or they would think we were "crazy".
Isn't the whole reason emotionally unstable people wish to "do things" to the groups of people you mentioned because they were put under stress for a long enough period to create resentment? I don't think these sorts of people make a good case for the distraction theory, since anyone experiencing chronic stress is more than likely to develop one or more of the many ailments associated it. These people would be much better off learning to put every day, insignificant events like being cut-off into perspective, and not allowing them to negatively affect their health before their reactionary response to stress spirals out of control. |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2011 : 13:07:34
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TT,
Glad I could give you the opportunity to feel better, but no, that wasn't exactly what I was looking for. I don't care for debates anymore, but I would like to point out that the case you bring up is an illustration of someone acting out their anger and frustration to a sublime degree. We'll get somewhere when we realize that backaches don't take away the unwanted thoughts or feelings (there's no protection or distraction at all), they just add more problematic thoughts to the ledger, which is already unbalanced based on our life experience, hence the stress cycle. Food for thought. Now, I have to go take my child to basketball practice and watch other kids mug him and slap him around while I talk to the mothers of the kids perpetrating the mugging while I experience exactly zero back pain or psychosomatic distractions.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2011 : 08:09:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
...We'll get somewhere when we realize that backaches don't take away the unwanted thoughts or feelings (there's no protection or distraction at all), they just add more problematic thoughts to the ledger, which is already unbalanced based on our life experience, hence the stress cycle.
I do believe a TMS/psychosomatic "backache" does offer protection and distraction for your "average" sufferer. We here are not your average sufferer since our mindbodys have been opened up to the IDEA of TMS. But, as they say "a little bit of knowledge," in this case can be a dangerous thing. We are still part of the big problem, THE HUMAN CONDITION, and if we are here with a computer in front of us, there's no escaping the social interactions that osmotically flow in/out of our rage/soothe ratios.
If you're at this site you're searching for relief from pain, either psycogenic or affective. We're part of the small percentage that are open to Dr. Sarno's "knowledge penicillin". The Good Doctor does not waste his time or the time of those that are not psychologically suited to accept that the mind is creating their pain. He allows them to keep that defense mechanism--that protective device. There egos are not strong enough for the "fights" they would encounter, if they told the truth about their emotions, and the turmoils that would ensue. It's that "Don't let the bastards get you down," but they inevitably do because there are just so many of them. Acceptance is easier unless it's an all out frontal attack on our egos, save the psychic energy for another day.
Well, I think I'm off on a tangent and once again feel better, but once again probably not answering your question--maybe we're getting somewhere; and maybe we're not. I need to drink my coffee and eat my Pillsbury Pastry Strudel before they get too cold and I go to hell for it--also, attention spans are short and people generally don't like seeing long posts.
Let's see if I can get back on track to your question. Yes, TMS pain offers PROTECTION and DISTRACTION from socially unacceptable thoughts. For example, in Western culture, it is acceptable to discuss most anatomical ailments in polite company. It's not acceptable to reveal your inner most true thoughts accept to paid professional or trusted confidants, without people thinking you're "crazy". Unless they have the empathy of a saint, most folks we encounter down the road don't want to hear it, unless they're sitting at a bar, are well lubricated and have ulterior motives on your body for the night.
Hope your son's team wins, it is a competition, since they keep score, and you don't have to add to your rage reservoir by going mano to mano with the other parents.
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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Edited by - tennis tom on 10/08/2011 08:25:40 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2011 : 10:36:53
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Thanks, Tom,
My son is actually a very good player. He gets the attention he does in scrimmages and games because he is good, and other parents yell at their youngsters to "knock him down if he tries to drive on you." He's hacked and harassed constantly, even in practice, but he takes it well. I would be swinging on the first assault at that age. He's incredibly well composed, but I know he doesn't like it.
So, my point is that while it angers the hell out of me to hear and see such things from parents of 10-yr-olds, and while I would like to invite some of them outside to have a "little talk," I experience none of my former symptoms either in the moment or later in brooding retrospection. And I don't think I have fewer or less severe thoughts or emotions than I did when I was suffering. In fact, I am now frustrated about 75% of my waking minutes raising children and running a business with all the accompanying requirements of time, energy and cash.
BTW, I have been watching the goings-on on Wall Street and in other cities in our country recently and couldn't help but wonder why all those dispossessed people who've lost nearly everything, who realize what a fraud our world banking system is and are powerless to stop it, who are facing armed guards everywhere they turn in case they were to show their "true feelings," as your Cupertino example did, don't have crippling back pain to protect them and distract from their rage reservoir. Perhaps a case study should be conducted since it is in the shadows of the Rusk Institute.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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bryan3000
USA
513 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2011 : 22:44:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Thanks, Tom,
BTW, I have been watching the goings-on on Wall Street and in other cities in our country recently and couldn't help but wonder why all those dispossessed people who've lost nearly everything, who realize what a fraud our world banking system is and are powerless to stop it, who are facing armed guards everywhere they turn in case they were to show their "true feelings," as your Cupertino example did, don't have crippling back pain to protect them and distract from their rage reservoir.
How do you know some of them don't? Or won't? Or won't have other syndromes? Perhaps some of them aren't there yet? Or, perhaps some of them simply have the kinds of personalities that express these emotions instead of repressing them?
I'd think we'd need some pretty in-depth data on the control-group you're talking about before we could make blanket statements about them not having psychosomatic conditions.
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
Edited by - bryan3000 on 10/08/2011 22:45:01 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2011 : 09:16:28
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Hillbilly, a quick question, if you had never been aware of Dr. Sarno's TMS theory, would you be able to take such events with the equanimity and thoughtfulness you now have?
Cheers
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2011 : 20:15:43
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Yes, Tom, I have been able to approach life with equanimity and calm despite it blowing up around me for a very long time. Always have. What I couldn't do years ago that booted me over the edge and into a world of suffering was the inability to wrangle my way out of a job (in the banking business, no less) that made me aware daily of the suffering I was helping bring on the rest of the world, and in order to do it successfully and provide for my family, I couldn't ponder such things. I was considered an intellectual softie for daring to say "I don't think this is right," on more than one occasion. This eventually became a suspicion that I carried with me constantly that I was being watched, and eventually that led to dizziness, twitching, insomnia, back pain, diarrhea, and countless other things.
So, I believe the problem I faced was one of being trapped, forced by the cold, demanding hand of economics to do things I was unwilling to do, and should I walk away, face certain stress at home, risk financial ruin, and endure limitless questions from friends, family, etc. that I cared not to answer.
I don't know where you were heading with your question, but I give Dr. Sarno props for his bringing the notion that stress can cause back pain to a wider audience. I nearly said mainstream, but that hasn't happened, and I suspect it hasn't happened mainly because of the strict and stubborn adherence to distraction theory that he abides still.
I'm an economist by education. I understand human interaction with regard to exchanges of cash, barter, etc. very well. I also understand that there is a profit motive built into nearly everything in this wonderful country I call home. I also know that sometimes the motive to be a decent human being butts heads with the economic realities, and eventually we have to face ourselves and decide what we can and cannot do and remain mentally healthy. When that decision takes the form of a change of circumstance, it creates a flaming wall of fear for us that we simply have to either walk through or turn back from. I walked through and came out on the other side. I can beckon to others to make the steps, but they weigh their own odds and many simply stare frozen at the flames for years. Dr. Sarno's words helped me make my walk, but so many, many more could make it more easily, at least in my opinion, if the route were more clearly defined.
Now that I've mixed a half-dozen metaphors, I will await your response and give the the gentlemanly last word. We are far afield of where we began, and I realize many here care not to read this stuff.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 10/11/2011 09:30:00 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2011 : 00:13:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
...and I suspect it hasn't happened mainly because of the strict and stubborn adherence to distraction theory that he abides still.
... but so many, many more could make it more easily, at least in my opinion, if the route were more clearly defined.
HB, Thank you for your background information. Modern life is difficult and exponentially more so if you need to support a family. I've never been married and have never felt the desire to have children, but have seen the pressures on my brother, who has two children that he helicopters over and needs to spend big bucks on sending to private schools, etc., etc.
Frankly I don't comprehend the hang-up with "the distraction theory". It's just one of many words in the Good Doctor's books and I've never given it much thought. I think getting hung-up on a word or two, "DISTRACTION THEORY", can become the distraction from more fully allowing the "penicillin knowledge" to seep in.
I guess I'm just lucky that from the first moment I accidentally stumbled on Dr. Sarno's first little paperback, it resonated and it all made perfect sense. I never found the need to question how the mind can cause structural pain as well as affective emotional upheavals such as depression, OCD, anxiety, etc.
Dr. Sarno, says the convolutions of the mind are so complex we may never know the "mechanics" of TMS--and he says we don't need to know them to heal. I don't know what's inside my computer or my Tylenol, nor do I care, I just want it to do it's job. I don't need to know which polyneuropeptide distracts which propreoceptor in my hip causing it to stop producing synovial fluid and lock-up, I just want it to stop.
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Javizy
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2011 : 12:11:14
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quote:
I guess I'm just lucky that from the first moment I accidentally stumbled on Dr. Sarno's first little paperback, it resonated and it all made perfect sense. I never found the need to question how the mind can cause structural pain as well as affective emotional upheavals such as depression, OCD, anxiety, etc.
Dr. Sarno, says the convolutions of the mind are so complex we may never know the "mechanics" of TMS--and he says we don't need to know them to heal. I don't know what's inside my computer or my Tylenol, nor do I care, I just want it to do it's job. I don't need to know which polyneuropeptide distracts which propreoceptor in my hip causing it to stop producing synovial fluid and lock-up, I just want it to stop.
I just wonder where stress fits into this. Many people who suffer from chronic stress develop physical symptoms identical to those associated with TMS, the process of which has been well documented by biologists. There are no mysterious convolutions, but people end up dealing with GI problems, skin complaints, musculoskeletal pain, arrhythmia etc anyway that often goes undiagnosed.
So how do you distinguish somebody who's arguably too emotional, setting off a stress response at the slightest provocation and suffering the inevitable consequences, from somebody who's having symptoms created by their mind which (currently) can't be well explained by science because they're not expressing emotion? Isn't it important that people receive the correct diagnosis? Especially since the former doesn't casually exclude a majority of the public for lack of faith, as Sarno does.
By the way, you might want to know what's inside your Tylenol, especially if you take it regularly. That stuff's poison like just about any pain medication we're happy to spend billions on a year. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2011 : 15:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Javizy
[quote]By the way, you might want to know what's inside your Tylenol, especially if you take it regularly. That stuff's poison like just about any pain medication we're happy to spend billions on a year.
Thanks for the heads-up on the Tylenol--I'm living proof they are not poisonous, I took four this morning before playing tennis and I'm alive to talk about it. 
I'll take a look at your post and try to reply later, this damn work thing keeps getting in the way.
Cheers
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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Javizy
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 07:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Thanks for the heads-up on the Tylenol--I'm living proof they are not poisonous, I took four this morning before playing tennis and I'm alive to talk about it.
I wasn't worried you'd die. People who buy organic produce aren't doing so to avoid immediate death; they want to avoid toxins that slowly detriment their health, although they pale in comparison to the likes of Tylenol. I saw you mention an anti-depressant in another thread, and, honestly, I'm quite surprised at your willingness to use toxic chemicals to treat your problems, given your use of terms like "penicillin knowledge" and your conviction in Sarno's theory. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 08:47:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Javizy
I'm quite surprised at your willingness to use toxic chemicals to treat your problems, given your use of terms like "penicillin knowledge" and your conviction in Sarno's theory.
Hypocrisy is one of my key survival tools, it's part of the Hippocatic Oath. I also use cell phones, microvave ovens and am petitioning to get a cell phone tower on my roof for increased revenue and improved reception. But, I never go far without my tin hat. |
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Javizy
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2011 : 09:38:02
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| Right? A tedious argument is exactly what I was trying to start. I've witnessed enough unsightly manifestations of your personality disorder in other threads to know not to be drawn in, and I'm sure what keeps it going is your belief that the problem lies, quite coincidentally, in everyone but yourself. Have fun with that. I think I've had enough already. |
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Is it one thing or the other?
