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cnotes11
USA
49 Posts |
 Posted - 09/01/2011 : 08:33:33
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I recently read a couple of Dr. Sarno’s books and in particular was struck by the Mind Body Prescription. As I read it I found it amazing how accurately the concepts/descriptions seemed to apply to me. I had long suspected my problems were something like TMS simply based on my experience, but reading this has solidified my belief.
I won’t burden you with every detail but here is the quick overview of my problem. At 18 I sustained a sports “injury”, which “should have easily resolved”. This injury turned into repetitive back pain which, fast forward 7 years, is now generalized pain down R side of my body. All of this from an innocuous “injury.” In addition to the pain I have a number of other symptoms stomach, trouble sleeping, headaches, etc which also seem to implicate TMS. I have run the gauntlet of tests/treatments and feel relatively confident I have TMS or some approximation.
But here is where I run into trouble. In the book Dr. Sarno states that a large majority of people are cured simply with the knowledge. I have thought there was an emotional basis for my pain for quite awhile and have seen no benefit to this. Secondary to knowledge Dr. Sarno states that some people require group meetings or psychotherapy to “explore further’ if their pain persists. I have not tried these because I am currently in Asia and don’t know if there are any resources (groups or therapists) to look to.
Does anyone know if TMS related treatment is available in this part of the world? My googling has turned up nothing, and also does anyone have further input for me on ways to approach this problem? Any alternatives people have found effective in treating TMS? Really any thoughts or advice are appreciated. Thanks.
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2011 : 12:31:59
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First of all, I would like to state that you can do this without a doc, I am not sure if there is one in your part of the world. I live in Ohio and have not had the luxury of seeing a TMS doc. I do believe at least a couple of them do phone consultations, but i am not sure which ones. Yes, knowledge is what brings about healing to TMS disorders. It's not just the knowledge, but it is the understanding and applying of the truth that helps one get better. I believe the mind has to be renewed with this knowledge so that the fear starts to go away. This can be a gradual process, little by little. I feel strongly that we may fail at times, but we need to learn to pick ourselves back up.
We have to learn to take our thoughts captive. The I am not as good as such and such, I will never get better, so and so did it, why can't I? Self comparison can leaves us in a nasty cycle of fearful and tormenting thoughts. The thoughts can surely keep the pain alive, even if we have the knowledge of the TMS theory. So if you have a thought, like it is a structural abnormality, than replace it with a thought of truth, this is not structural, it is just caused by a thought, or whatever works for you. Part of it is just learning to change our thought patterns. If it doesn't happen overnight, don't beat yourself up. This is a learning process. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/01/2011 : 15:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by cnotes11
But here is where I run into trouble. In the book Dr. Sarno states that a large majority of people are cured simply with the knowledge. I have thought there was an emotional basis for my pain for quite awhile and have seen no benefit to this.
Knowledge alone is not enought to cure tms. The one that cured himself after he read the book is because he realized his pain were caused by his thought, not by some physical causes so he lost his FEAR of the symptoms. The key to a cure is to loose your fear of the symptoms, whatever it is. If you don't fear what the symptoms could do to you then it lost its purpose so it will cease. If you have the knowledge but you still fear the symptoms then it will still be there because it is still doing its job, even after whatever initially caused it is gone. |
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cnotes11
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 01:48:49
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@2scoops - I hear your point and it makes alot of sense to me. However I think many would agree that its very difficult to change your thoughts. Particularly if you've developed a pattern over time. But as you said its a learning process and takes time. i dont expect to change over night. My struggle seems to be more a practical "how to" issue. A patient in the book is quoted as saying you should repetitively read the book, other suggestions include meditation and writing a list of problems. I have tried all of these but have yet to see much change. I plan to give it more time but do you have any other advice on how to tackle this day-to-day?
@balto - Thanks for the response. Maybe you can help me clarify further? My understanding was the physical sympton was a manifestation of repressed emotions i.e. rage etc. So the idea is don't focus on the sympton don't think of your body as damaged but rather try to focus on whatever emotional cause may be. When you say fear of the sympton do you mean this as another emotion that can become engrained and continue to cause problems? I don't feel as if I repress my fear of the symptons, its with me daily. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting or misapplying the theory. Your advice is appreciated. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 10:12:23
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Damit, or is it dam it, or damn it? I'm on vacation and I should be in the pool and hot-tub, but I still have vestigal "goodist" and "perfectionist" tendencies compelling me to respond to a TMS'er in need. You are a very intellegent person, (and probably even know how to use spell check which I don't), as evidenced by your excellent writing skills for someone so young. My yoga teacher, Texas chainsaw Tony, used to say in class, that his biggest problem was that his students were so smart.
Over analyzing this TMS stuff can be a hindrance to winning the TMS wars--paralysis by analysis. It does not necessarily take a long time to fix things, that will vary for each indivdiual. "Healing" depends entirely on you, you're the boss of this. It's about acceptance. Think "light-bulb" going off in your psyche like in a cartoon--the ah-ha moment--then sleep on it. The TMS "knowledge penicillin" has to sink into your subconscious on a cellular level.
How long have you been at this? I would suggest to continue reading the books. There are a couple by other TMS authors that might resonate with you since you are athletic, Dr. Marc Sopher, Fred Amir, and Dr. Brady's.
Have you identified the life stressing incidents that have triggered your TMS? Look at the Rahe-Holmes list in my sig below for them. I would think most obviously, being in Asia, in a culture so different from ours, would have a significant impact on your homeostasis.
Good luck! |
Edited by - tennis tom on 09/02/2011 19:14:42 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 11:26:20
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cnotes,
I would suggest you pick up a book called "Hope and Help for Your Nerves" by Dr. Claire Weekes. In it, you will find the same "knowledge penicillin" offered in all books by TMS authors, except she simply explains how the nervous system works, why yours is under duress from the stressful ruminations you live with due to your symptoms, and what to do. In a nutshell all you need to know is that your symptoms are never going to cause the calamities you envision. The symptoms are simply symptoms of stress, no different from the heartbeat increase you get when you look over the edge of a cliff.
The same nervous system controls muscle tension that controls heart rate, digestion, and other things that are outside your control. They happen when you are sleeping, in a coma, etc. Somehow you stay alive. You have to allow your mind to allow your body to get back to a state of homeostasis. This doesn't happen quickly, under normal circumstances, and won't happen ever so long as you jolt your body with fearful thoughts constantly.
So, in my opinion, Balto is 100% correct. You simply have to start viewing your symptoms as nothing at all but a stress chemistry-nervous response your body is having due to the trouble in your mind. That alone can cure you forever. Accept your symptoms as normal nervous reactions, and you will understand them. Your mind is looking over the cliff all the time. That's it! Step back mentally from the cliff and carry on with normal life. You will be fine.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2011 : 13:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by cnotes11
[brThanks for the response. Maybe you can help me clarify further? My understanding was the physical sympton was a manifestation of repressed emotions i.e. rage etc. So the idea is don't focus on the sympton don't think of your body as damaged but rather try to focus on whatever emotional cause may be. When you say fear of the sympton do you mean this as another emotion that can become engrained and continue to cause problems? I don't feel as if I repress my fear of the symptons, its with me daily. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting or misapplying the theory. Your advice is appreciated.
The book Hillbilly suggested would be extremely helpful. He also said it much better than I could ever do.
I believe the cure for tms and anxiety is very very simple. And because it is so simple people don't believe in it. They keep going around and around looking for some sophisticate, complex, expensive treatments.
Here is what cured me:
- I read books. I realize that my pain, my anxiety, my panic attack, and all those countless mindbody illness symptoms were started by negative thought, negative emotion, negative events...
- I believe those symptoms will not get worse, will not have any do any damage to my body.
- I stop fearing what those symptoms COULD do to me, to my body.
- I gave brain sometime to recognize that I have no fear of the pain symptoms anymore then my pains ceased.
You see, your brain is just trying to help you. It see that you're are being bother so much by your emotions so it created some pain symptoms or some anxiety symptoms to diverse your thought away from your emotinal problem. Helping by hurting you. (just like my dad punished me to make me a better person). The brain want you to be scare of something else so you can forget your trouble life. Now, if you don't scare of it, if you don't fear it, don't fear what the pain would do to you then your pain will disappear. It doesn't do it's job. It's job is to create fear, and if you don't fear it then it will go away.
Don't question: what if I have a headache because I have a tumor, what if my back pain will get worse and I will be paralyze, what if my burning skin is a sign of skin cancer or some other crazy disease, what if my ulcer caused by stomach cancer... Don't what if this what if that. Just tell yourself it is just tms, mindbody symptoms. My brain is just try to fool me, just trying to help me forget my stressful situation, I'm not fearing you. It is harmless. No one in this world have die from insomnia, no one have ever paralyze from back pain... if you can stop fearing what the pain would do to you then you will be cure. And remember all this will take time. It took you a long time of living under stress to become ill from tms, it will take awhile to get well. So talk to your brain and be patient. Push yourself to do thing you affraid to do due to your illness to help desensitize yourself.
Goodluck |
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cnotes11
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2011 : 00:35:47
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@tennistom I think damnit can be spelled however you like. I see you picked up on my tendency to analyze things to death. I have little doubt years of overthinking has not helped my cause. I've been at things from the TMS perspective for a couple months, but have been thinking about an emotional basis for pain for well over a year. I will look into those authors.
I have not identified the stress trigger. At a conscious level I feel in a bit of a catch 22, the biggest stressor I can identify in my life is being in pain. Unsure what you meant by "Rahe-Holmes list" or where to find it? Thanks for your time especially being on vacation. |
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cnotes11
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2011 : 00:38:50
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@hillbilly Thank you for taking the time to respond. I will look into that book. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on what it is you and Balto are telling me. I especially appreciate Balto explaining what it took to find a cure on a personal level. But I am curious on one further point. What are your thoughts about conscious vs unconscious in all of this? Dr. Sarno describes one patient whose repressed emotions "exploded" into consciousness thus eliminating the symptons the brain had created to distract from these emotions. If there were a foolproof way to induce this it would be easy, clearly its not.
So obviously the most important thing is accessing, experiencing or altering unconscious emotions. But this begs the question can this be done consciously? Of course everyone is going to be different in this sense, but part of me feels as if there truly is no answer to that question. I can do my best to see the logic and intellectualize. I can consciously run in circles all day, asking every question I can think of, reading every book out there and still there is a chance I would get nowhere? Emotional imprinting takes place over the course of our entire lives and even before we are born. I am failing to see how to fix these emotional problems that are well beyond the scope of my conscious mind. Its as if I've been told to go somewhere but not been told how to get there.
It would seem Dr. Sarno (and you through your answers) have presented methods which have worked for many people, but the more honest answer to the question: how do we deal with unconscious emotional issues? Is I don't know.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2011 : 08:04:24
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Cnotes, by some magic of the internet (or the TMS Gremlin) my sig was removed for the first time I can recall. I was referring to the Holmes-Rahe list of stressful situations that can cause TMS. I'll copy it below:
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
BTW, It's interesting how our subconscious causes us to gloss over and miss things in the TMS books that most directly pertain to our issues.
Also, that in this case, the gremlin creates mischief to prevent one TMS'er from helping another.
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DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2011 : 08:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by cnotes11
...Its as if I've been told to go somewhere but not been told how to get there.
The question is where do YOU want to go? What is it you want to do if TMS wasn't there doing it's perceived unconscious job of PROTECTING and DISTRACTING? Although we have been imprinted/conditioned by our past, we have free will to change our futures--granted, easier said than done--but, SUCCESS BREEDS SUCCESS!
Just Do It! |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2011 : 08:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by cnotes11
[brI especially appreciate Balto explaining what it took to find a cure on a personal level. But I am curious on one further point. What are your thoughts about conscious vs unconscious in all of this? Dr. Sarno describes one patient whose repressed emotions "exploded" into consciousness thus eliminating the symptons the brain had created to distract from these emotions. If there were a foolproof way to induce this it would be easy, clearly its not.
I and many others who were able to achieved a "book cured" did not go or try to look for those happened long ago "repressed rages". We just simple realize the pain had emotional causation and they are benign so we stop looking for treatment from "modern doctors", we lost our fear of the pains and we were cured.
I don't believe in the subconcious/concious mind stuffs. I believe that tms is simply a normal human reaction to prolong stress. It is just like when you touch fire you will get burned. When you cut your hand it will bleed and hurt. When you're under prolong stress (usually when you have no one to share your trouble with) you will get tms symptoms.
Fire burn and hurt because due to it's high temperature. Tms symptoms hurt because of fear. When we are under stress we're fearing something. Divorce, you fear you losing something, someone, fear loneliness... lost job, you fear you will have no money, fear people will look down on you.... think about it, all stress happened when we fear something. So now the brain see that you are under stress, you are fearing something. It wait for you for awhile. It give you sometime trying to solve the problem on you own for awhile... and after awhile, your brain will jump in trying to save you. The brain will try to replace your existing fear with another fear, it will create some pain, some physical or some anxiety symptoms, it creates fear. something else for you to fear about so you can forget your other fear.
To me, fear is the cause of what pain you. Without fear you will have no pain. How you go about stopping that fear I'm not sure but if you can stop fearing it, stop fearing the pain you will be cure.
Rage is a form of fear too, you fear someone can hurt you, you fear you may loose something, someone... you fear living with that someone, you fear....
We all react differently to adverse situations. Some will react with fear, some will just acknowledge the situation and go look for solutions to solve the situation or just simply accept it and go on with life. The one that react with fear will normally get tms. The brain will create tms pain to introduce another fear for you to deal with in order for you to forget whatever you're fearing at the moment. Think about it, it is the fear of the adverse situation that brought on tms, not the situation itself. Billion of people around the world live in adverse situations their whole life and they don't get tms. Their trouble can be 100 times worst than our's. They don't get tms because they accept their situation, they expected it, they acknowledge it and go on with their life. It is a normal way of life for them.
So stop your fear then you will stop your pain.
To stop tms from coming back, stop your fear of your adverse situations.
How you do it I don't know. Each of us have a different way to deal with adverse situation. We just have to change our thought process. The way we deal with it before didn't work for well right? so we should make change to how we think, how we react to adverse situation.
for example: lost your job. You may go crazy worry about how you're going to live, to pay the bills, to buys foods.... you depress, desperate, loose sleep... -> tms.
how about changing your thought: that's ok, now I have time to retrain myself for a new job, I can have a new start... I can het some help from family, from the government for a while until I can get another job. No one die from hunger in American, England.... I will survive.... Things will get better... try to focus on the positive. Try to accept your situation and try to improve on it. Really, what else can you do...
I'm rambling, but I hope this help you see my thinking about tms. Dr. Sarno saved my life, he is god sent to me but I don't take everything he said or wrote in his book to heart. I don't believe my stupid subconcious mind can be that powerful. Our concious mind, concious thought is the most powerful. It can change the world for us. I also read books from other mindbody expert, like Dr. Claire Weekes, and try to pull what make the most sense to me and use it. Also, with 15+ years of suffering from tms, I found my own way to get well. It may not work for you, it may not make sense to you. I just hope it does.
again, goodluck. |
Edited by - balto on 09/03/2011 08:32:29 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2011 : 10:26:19
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quote:
Originally posted by cnotes11
But here is where I run into trouble. In the book Dr. Sarno states that a large majority of people are cured simply with the knowledge. I have thought there was an emotional basis for my pain for quite awhile and have seen no benefit to this.
This is a serious criticism I have of Dr. Sarno's books. He makes it sound too easy to recover from TMS. He implies that many get better simply by reading the book, and others get relief in days or weeks. In my experience, as well as many who have visited this forum, this is simply not true.
While I'm sure there are some people "cured" in days or weeks, I believe the majority of people need a lot of time to recover from TMS. I also believe that there is no such thing as a "cure" in that as human beings, we cannot forever banish mindbody symptoms. We will always be subject to flare-ups.
Thus, I believe the goal of TMS recovery should not be full and complete elimination of symptoms. This is unrealistic. Instead, the goal should be to disarm the symptoms sufficiently so that they no longer have the power to control you. Essentially the symptoms become a nuisance that you learn to accept as part of your life. You learn to stop focusing on them. You accept that they are benign and do not indicate a structural problem or serious disease. You banish the fear that the symptoms will continue or escalate into something worse.
By fully accepting the symptoms as benign, and that they are caused by emotional and not physical issues, and that they are nothing to fear, then you eliminate their power. As time goes on, they will fade on their own. You may not get 100% recovery but the symptoms will subside to a level where they no longer distract you from your day-to-day life. The more serious flare-ups will be fewer and far between, and of lower intensity. When they come, you will be trained to focus on the emotional triggers that might be causing them, instead of on the symptoms themselves.
In summary, recovery is a life-long reconditioning process and you must take a long-term view. You cannot have any unrealistic expectations about how quickly the pain will fade. Accept that you might have psychogenic symptoms for the rest of your life. This is nothing to worry about, nothing to fear. It is part of being human.
This mindset will ultimately lead to relief in the long-term. |
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balto
839 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2011 : 12:12:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
Originally posted by cnotes11
But here is where I run into trouble. In the book Dr. Sarno states that a large majority of people are cured simply with the knowledge. I have thought there was an emotional basis for my pain for quite awhile and have seen no benefit to this.
This is a serious criticism I have of Dr. Sarno's books. He makes it sound too easy to recover from TMS. He implies that many get better simply by reading the book, and others get relief in days or weeks. In my experience, as well as many who have visited this forum, this is simply not true.
I never say it is easy Dave. The idea is very simple but it is extremely difficult to achieve. It is not easy to stop your fear of anything. For some fears it would take months, years, and lots of soul searching, lots of practice to be able to stop the fears. Also, I didn't implied that many get better simply by reading the book, Dr. Sarno said that in his book and CD, I've just repeat what he said.
As I've said, it may not work for others, it may not make sense for others. But it worked for me. I've spent year searching for a cure. I did everything Dr. Sarno taught in his books. Went to countless doctors, hospital..., even tried accupunture, massage, meditation, yoga, CBT, chiropractor, herbs, biofeedback,... nothing would provide long lasting relieve, nothing, not until I was so sick and tire of my life and one day I just decided stop my fear. I told myself so what if I die, so what if I'm in pain, I refuse to fear it for another minutes.... then the pain, the anxiety just slowly disappear completely.
Dr. Sarno is a god sent as I've said, He explained many things about tms. He changed the way people look at tms in a completely different way than conventional medicine had. But I couldn't find any relieve following his theory that repressed rage is one of the causation of tms. My pain just got worse when I go looking for something negative happened long ago and had to re-lived it. the thought that something happened 30 year ago could cause pain to me now is very difficult for me to accept.
Now I try not to think of tms as a disease or illness. I want to think of it as a normal body sensation that happened when our brain is subject to fear of some extreme negative changes. It is like when the temperature is 110F, we feel hot. When it is 10F we feel cold. So when there is fear we feel the tms pains. If we change the air conditioner's temperature to remove the heat we will no longer feel cold. If we change our thinking to remove the fear then we will no longer feel tms pains.
Well, it sound very simple but it took me years to get rid of my pains and to minimize the chance that it will come back. You are right when you said there is no complete ellimination of tms. Tms is a normal human sensation just like hot and cold. And just like you've said: "By fully accepting the symptoms as benign, and that they are caused by emotional and not physical issues, and that they are nothing to fear." The last word of your sentence is fear. No fear, no pain. There is not much different from what you said in your post and from what I've said. In the end, the only way to remove your pains is to remove your fear of what your pain would do to you. It is not important to go find and identify what suppressed rage, what emotional issue that caused the pain. |
Edited by - balto on 09/04/2011 05:47:15 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2011 : 20:54:35
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| What Dave said X2! |
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cnotes11
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2011 : 23:36:16
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| Thanks everyone, I will continue trying and hopefully find my way out of this. |
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eric watson
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2012 : 15:47:32
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| this is an awesome thread-thought it should be read again |
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Looking for advice
