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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2011 : 17:23:53
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I am on page 35. If you have this book, would you please look at it and clarify one sentence for me? At the bottom of the top paragraph it says, "The symptom imperative tells us that taking away a symptom by the use of a placebo or an antidepressant will only give rise to another symptom, and the other symptom may be related to something serious, like cancer."
I understand this up to the part about the cancer. What is he trying to say by saying that the new symptom may be related to cancer? And so what? What does that imply/prove? The cancer is real..is he saying that the cancer is caused by TMS and why would the replacement symptom (symptom imperative) be a]worse than the initial symptom...as in cancer? Any clarification or your interpretation of this would be greatly appreciated. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 19:25:15
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I found The Divided Mind rather clinical and not too helpful in therapy. The chapters authored by other MDs and others were interesting, however.
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 06:45:20
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Don't you think cancer is more serious than (non-cancer-caused) back pain? TMS is real, by the way, whatever form it takes.
Like Back2, I also preferred the later chapters because I didn't feel Dr Sarno was saying anything new in his intro. Obviously it's necessary for people reading the book who haven't read his other books.
Hilary N |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 07:06:16
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| Of course I feel that cancer is more serious. What I am saying is that the sentence should have been taken a step further. I don't understand his point...if it IS related to something like cancer, so what, then what? What have we done wrong, overlooked? |
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avik
128 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 09:23:31
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quote:
Originally posted by susan828
Of course I feel that cancer is more serious. What I am saying is that the sentence should have been taken a step further. I don't understand his point...if it IS related to something like cancer, so what, then what? What have we done wrong, overlooked?
I agree Susan.
Bottom line, its just a poorly written sentence. There should be another sentence following it, that elaborates on whatever point is trying to be made. |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 09:44:57
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| Thanks, avik. I know without the book in front of someone, it's hard to answer this question but the next paragraph didn't follow the same thought. |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 17:00:08
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| Back-2-It, you said you didn't find The Divided Mind that helpful. Which book was the most helpful, by Sarno or someone else? |
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matty
10 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 18:43:44
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I found the book Pain free for Life by brady the most helpful of all TMS books.Gives a 6 week course of action which Im in middle of and all symptoms pretty much gone.Only gripe i have is he changes TMS to AOS for his own stated reason but its same thing.
matt |
Edited by - matty on 03/06/2011 18:49:31 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 09:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by susan828
"The symptom imperative tells us that taking away a symptom by the use of a placebo or an antidepressant will only give rise to another symptom, and the other symptom may be related to something serious, like cancer."
Since I'm traveling I don't have my edition of DM at my fingertips, but I'll give it a go, not allowing the facts to interfere with my opinions. I feel cancer can be caused by one's own mindbody. I won't elaborate here, read Bernie Siegel. I think the good doctor is saying that if you don't take your life into your own hands and deal with it head-on, you may eventualy make yourself so miserable it may effect your autoimmune system. Your subconscious will rebel so violenly, it may give you cancer as a major new distraction in order to take you off of life's battlefield.
Treating TMS mindbody disorders with placebos and pills, will only prolong the day of reconning. By then it may be too late to modify one's ways. If the Big C doesn't get you, the more then helpful oncologists and the chemo may. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 03/07/2011 15:09:21 |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 09:55:35
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susan828
quote:
Back-2-It, you said you didn't find The Divided Mind that helpful. Which book was the most helpful, by Sarno or someone else?
Healing Back Pain was by far the most helpful. Next Mind Body Prescription. Because I was so anxious and depressed, "Hope and Help for Your Nerves," by Dr. Claire Weekes, got me to the point where I could work on TMS.
Most of all it is posts on this forum that have helped me. For instance, "teachme's" recent post on fear hit a note.
I have to fight a fight that is a little different in that I have a neuropathy type pain, which is mentioned here and on Wikki, but is not much explored and is only touched on in the books. |
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jaya
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 11:34:41
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its funny you bring this question up, when i read the book, my ocd zeroed right in on it as if it were highlighted! but it didnt really stick with me though-i knew i was cancer free already.
must be the editors way of seeing if we were paying attention. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 15:00:28
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If TT is right in his interpretation, and it seems he is, the assertion bothers me.
First, Dr. Sarno simply has no shred of scientific evidence that cancer can be caused by negative emotions. It's a huge leap.
Second, if we do buy such a premise, the next step is blaming the victim for his terrible illness.
Third, and most important, it scares the hell out of me :>) |
Edited by - art on 03/07/2011 15:01:17 |
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 15:55:19
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I wish Sarno had elaborated on this or put in in a way that's more clear. It's scary to read for people who have a fear of cancer. I don't but I wish I knew just what he meant.
To Tom, I have read Bernie Siegel, I have 2 of his books. We know it's true that a weakened immune system can bring on a myriad of things. I have seen friends who are severely stressed out develop cancer after a divorce or death...but then, I have seen children and happy people develop cancer so who knows.
Thanks to the people who suggested their preferences of books. I am doing the Schubiner book now. I have had it for months collecting dust but started yesterday. I read the reviews on Amazon and it seems that those people found him more "hands on" than Sarno. I know it's an individual thing, which doctor will resonate just right with us.
Art, I don't know if it would be blaming...I think we should know the facts. No, Sarno has no scientific evidence but as it was stated by Siegel and others, stress leaves us open to anything. Example...I went through a pretty bad depression many years ago, but nobody blamed me for this illness. I myself learned from it though, and I knew the blame (wrong word, though...cause?) fell on me for not being able to manage the stress better and allow it to culminate into a severe, zombie-like depression. I learned to get a grip on stress before it gets me because I never want to go through that again. The body knew what to do...just like an animal goes into a corner or hides when he is in distress, I basically withdrew. But I wouldn't blame myself for that, or blame myself had it been cancer..and nobody with a heart blamed me for my lack of coping skills and I can't see anyone blaming a cancer victim for not nipping his stress in the bud.
I think Siegel's point and in this case, Sarno's point is just to be aware, keep our immune system well. I think Tom's post is on the money. |
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Back2-It
USA
438 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 18:35:08
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For some reason the cancer statements didn't bother me, and that was my greatest fear up until this latest problem. I think I've always believed that stress can cause cancer in some way, so I said, "so what?" and moved on.
In MindBody there is a contradiction of sorts where Sarno says that people with Fibro hardly ever get well, yet elsewhere in the book he says he has helped many.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 19:10:54
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Susan,
I'm always surprised, the things people will argue about.
You've never heard of someone blaming a cancer patient for his or her own illness? "Man, she's such a negative person. No wonder she has cancer." That honestly doesn't ring a bell?
If not, all I can tell you is it's a pretty well-known phenomenon, and follows upon the heels of relatively recent theories about cancer having an emotional component.
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Edited by - art on 03/07/2011 19:22:10 |
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jersmy
China
1 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 22:10:25
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susan828
USA
291 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2011 : 22:15:09
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| Art, I can't say I have ever heard anyone say that but I have heard people say that about people with ulcers or heart trouble. I see nothing wrong though with attributing some disorders to stress. We know it's true and we are trying to educate the public as to the connection. I think you are talking more about an obnoxious, blaming attitude than I am, which is never helpful to someone suffering. |
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jaya
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2011 : 05:40:14
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| lets face it.. our bodies were not designed for the daily stresses and anxiety of modern life-i feel most illnesses probably have a stress conponent- not to beat a dead horse-my mom died of lupus-there is no lupus anywhere in my family! she was high anxiety,ocd, bipolar, manic depressive with some eating disorder on the side-coincidence??? i dont think so. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2011 : 09:31:07
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quote:
Originally posted by jaya
lets face it.. our bodies were not designed for the daily stresses and anxiety of modern life-i feel most illnesses probably have a stress conponent- not to beat a dead horse-my mom died of lupus-there is no lupus anywhere in my family! she was high anxiety,ocd, bipolar, manic depressive with some eating disorder on the side-coincidence??? i dont think so.
I hear what you're saying, but I think it's a slippery slope. In my opinion it's important to remind ourselves that emotional illness is not a choice either. |
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Someone who has The Divided Mind...question
