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n/a
48 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2010 : 01:14:28
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Unfortunately, I feel that I am still not making much progress. I read some more of the books recommended here about anxiety and other things. I started seeing a very nice and smart therapist a few months ago, and I find it useful but am not seeing much improvement with my physical symptoms.
I have not sought physical treatments in a long time (in fact, I was pregnant until recently, so I really didn't take any meds, supplements, etc at all). While some of my symptoms wax and wane with stress etc, others (urgency) don't seem to budge, not for one day of the last three years, no matter how hard I try to ignore them, keep myself busy, etc.
I also have trouble understanding why some foods seem to cause bladder problems for independent people, including ones that never heard about other people's symptoms for years (i.e. why would unrelated people get "conditioned" to experience the same foods as issues?).
And please don't tell me I haven't "truly accepted" TMS and that's why I am not getting better. I have accepted that I have a mind-body issue as much as a skeptic like me will accept any theory, but when the treatment doesn't work for months and months, one must always be open to alternative explanations.
As people know from previous posts, I am quite aware of numerous things that I resent and I try to be open about my feelings and with myself. I am also not surfing the Internet for solutions all the time, and I have done my best to continue living my life despite the pain and stress of this condition (successful career, marriage and baby, travel, etc). As mentioned in previous posts, I have read two Sarno books and worked with the IC coach Abigail, too.
Thanks a lot for any help! |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2010 : 05:23:27
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Hi Jamie,
Welcome back,
If I'm not mistaking I remember your posts from a few months ago , I'm sorry to hear that you're still struggling with the same problems although you seem to have done your best trying.
The fact that you did not see any improvement yet may not necessarily mean that it's not TMS, or an anxiety related disorder or that you are on the wrong track as far as what the condition is but as you may have read already with TMS the cause for the emotions at play often remain unconscious and may never be found or is difficult to identify:
Sometime it is not necessary to know what these are to get better and just becoming aware that there is nothing wrong physically is enough to get better but sometimes it will require way more than that to access the underlying cause(s). In my own experience when I started dealing with the anxiety attacks I also had to modify my life style not to perpetuate the nerve wreaking patterns that had never been a problem before but that were definitely an issue once the nervous system became overloaded .
Although both condition appear to be mind/body syndromes I also came gradually to the conclusion that TMS and anxiety had to be treated differently when symptoms treated as TMS responded well to the usual methods used earlier and other symptoms remained or worsened until I identified them more as caused by anxiety than by TMS and worked on it accordingly. The surprise was to discover that these two can run side by side but which only started to make sense when I started to see some results using a different approach with some help from board members comments . It may sound confusing at first but of course one condition doesn't exclude the other..
You know it sounds like you have done all that it takes to succeed but it also sounds like you still have a fast paced stressful life style and maybe you haven't found a viable solution that would eliminate a lot of the stress while still offering a break in the responsibilities you feel towards your family if it turns out to be the cause.
Maybe the reason why you're not making progress is because there is nothing more that you can do and someone else should bear the burden and give you the break you need. I'm playing with suppositions here trying to unlock a mystery... and exploring ideas, the idea being that maybe this time it is somebody's turn to do something for you.
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Edited by - catspine on 06/07/2010 20:54:03 |
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n/a
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 00:07:30
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Yes, catspine, it's still me from a few months ago. I do think the stress is a lot to handle. I am doing my best in that area, but unfortunately my family can't help but rely on me in many ways (professionally and otherwise). Without going into details, I am still having to do a lot of things while on maternity leave, and while I am lucky not to be totally on my own with the baby or anything, it is a lot to worry about.
I just feel like there is a lot to handle, and sometimes I really don't know if I will get better because it's already been several years and the successes are small while the setbacks can undo weeks of any sort of progress. |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 03:47:22
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Jamie
you remember this person who told you he finally overcame the same problem you have after years of struggles?
Even if you fell like it will never happen sometimes maybe you should bookmark the page and look at it when you loose confidence. You can overcome this if someone else did it . Look at the skills you got...what makes you think you can't do it? You have a serious health problem, a baby to take care of now, a stressful job, a difficult family situation, less hour to sleep, and much more that may be pressuring you and in spite of that you're still functioning fairly well. When I think about what it takes to deal with all of this everyday it makes anything else look more feasible. It also makes me wonder why there is no improvements.
What I can tell you is that you did not come back to the forum by accident: you know that you have some doubt in the medical approach, you know that there is a high chance to treat this condition successfully as a M/B disorder, you know that there must be a way to heal because of the success stories you heard here just to keep it simple but there is still something you don't know if knowledge is what's will allow you to heal unless your body knows what it is it needs already but your mind doesn't let it happen or have it.
This is not a criticism of course. So don't give up it's only a puzzle where a few pieces are missing ...
Fortunately you appear to have all the skills to handle difficult situations and the stress that comes from it and you're even lucky enough to get some compensation for your efforts but although you already suffer from the syndrome you seem to disregard the impact it may have on you because of what might happen if you stop even temporarily. (I think that stopping would itself create an enormous amount of stress so obviously you're better of with a stress you know that is productive than a stress you don't and I understand your choice). But what about drafting a spare solution that would work in the worst case scenario? Even if it hardly ever works as planned the perspective would bring some relief.
On the other hand your body is trying to tell you something ... If this is a mind /body disorder or a physical condition which ever you believe it is you still have the problem because there is something you're not addressing |
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n/a
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 08:07:49
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Alright, so how do I figure out what the thing is that I am not addressing? The back-up plan that I have is to live off of family support (a huge strain on them, not a rich family).
I don't know that there is a "high chance" to successfully treat this as a mind-body disorder, I just feel like it's a better chance than of the other approaches for which there is close to a zero chance as far as I can tell. I come to this forum because I am desperate for ideas at this point.
The only reason I am still "able" to work is that I have a very flexible job where I can do a lot of things from home. Again, I cannot enter into details while remaining anonymous, but just trust me that I simply cannot leave my job right now without it resulting in dire financial circumstances.
Despite all the books I have read and techniques I have tried, I am for one simply unable to calm my mind down. I feel jittery, presumably from all the adrenaline etc. I absolutely can't stand yoga, meditation, etc - it drives me nuts each time I try, or I just fall asleep during some of this stuff. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 09:38:14
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quote:
Originally posted by jamie
Alright, so how do I figure out what the thing is that I am not addressing?
You say you have read the books but it's still not working. In the books it says that you do NOT need to look for or discover the gotcha' psychological moment in your life that "caused" your TMS.
You only need to accept the theory that the pain is real..the pain is harmless or benign...the pain is there to PROTECT you from dangerous emotions that your child-mind cannot handle at this time.
Stop the searching now...it won't make any difference if you do find it. Stop reading self-help books, they will only condition you to believing you need help...if you're feeling jittery do some active exercise for 30 minutes a day like running, walking or swimming.
Meditating is good but probably not for you now if all you will be doing is rumminating on what's wrong with you and what that moment was that brought all this about. Keep reading Sarno, that's all you need to study because you are not quite getting it yet...that's your TMS protecting you...maybe you should thank it, it's just doing it's job.
If you're not getting better through your therapist, try a new ones until you find one that gets you better.
Good luck!
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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n/a
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 10:54:06
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I am sorry I was unclear: I am not searching for some big psychological moment or realization because, I agree, that's useless. I went through months (especially while pregnant) of just trying to live life without reading any more books or anything and of doing just what you say: accept that it's a mind-body issue and do the best I can to keep going. Nothing changed in my symptoms between that time and times when I tried hard to "find the answer."
Also, let's assume for a bit that you are really correct and I am just not "getting" it. Alright, then how do I go about getting it if I haven't so far? How do I become as accepting as I need to be?
Unlike some of the other manifestations of TMS (as painful as they are!), IC also involves the constant decision-making process of "do I go to the bathroom now or wait? okay, how about now?". In social situations, this means weighing all sorts of pros and cons of going now versus later, and it also does on planes, various settings with limited bathroom access, etc. Having had all sorts of chronic pain (including a year and a half of excruciating migraines 4-5 times a week a few years ago), I can tell you that bladder urgency is much more stressful than most other types of pain out there. That doesn't make it "not-TMS", but the stress of the condition itself makes the process to heal even harder than it is already.
I continue to remain skeptical of the non-falsifiable nature of TMS. Whenever someone doesn't get better, he gets told on this board that he just doesn't understand or he'd be getting better - this is clearly not always true, as evidenced e.g. by those people who actually turned out to have a different (sometimes serious) disorder. Don't misunderstand me: I fully buy that I have a mind-body issue, I am just giving these people as an example of the problematic nature of telling people they're not getting it.
In short, here are the things I have done over the last three years and the results, as well as what seem to be some potential conditioning issues (?):
- Blood tests, urine tests, various ultrasounds (all showing no or minimal abnormalities)
- Avoidance of foods to which I tested as sensitive (didn't do much, though my symptoms seem to get worse with some of these - conditioning?)
- All sorts of traditional and alternative medicine/supplements/vitamins/bodywork etc (didn't do much)
- Therapy with a TMS therapist and now a different therapist (not seeing a whole lot of results for my symptoms)
- All kinds of books and trying to follow their advice on issues such as TMS, stress, anxiety, etc (didn't do much)
- Trying not to do anything in terms of treatment, continuing usual activities, etc (didn't do much)
- Yoga/meditation, hypnotherapy CDs for IBS (didn't do much and annoys me when I do it)
- Vacation (didn't do much; I sometimes got even worse while on vacation)
- Working lots / trying not to work much (lots of work can make it worse, but so can not doing much)
So, concretely speaking, what now? |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 11:32:23
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You've been checked out by docs and nothing serious found. Modern medicine has become very good at dx'ing disease. If you have any continuing doubts that the white-coats may have missed something, get second and third or as many opinions and all the tests you need to make you confident in the belief that there's nothing life threatening or seriously wrong with your body health.
Change your life, so you stop filling up your TMS tension reservoir, get help with the kids, activities that you look forward to, maybe a divorce or two (only kidding, but a forum member BaseBall65 has never sounded as happy as when he moved out and got a divorce).
Accept your TMS pain as a mysterious stranger. It is protecting you with body pain as a distraction from dangerous emotions. Your sub-conscious has decided these fearful emotions would be more painful to endure than your benign body pain.
Good luck.
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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Edited by - tennis tom on 06/12/2010 11:11:33 |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2010 : 22:30:12
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Hi Jamie
What is there you could tell us in order to help you without revealing yourself or compromising your privacy?
I think that you could benefit much more from the people willing to help you here if there was more material from you to work with and therefore more approaches you could try …
Whatever you’ll decide to do about this here are couple of questions for now... I have no need for the answers to this unless you wish to share but maybe you can make use of it for your own exploration in relation to TMS...
How important is having control in your life? How much control do you have if the final decision is in someone else's hand? Do you think of letting go as something negative like a weakness? The loss of control even potentially can be a huge source of anger especially unconsciously. The necessity to perpetuate something that forces you to perform also contributes to fueling the unconscious anger.
How far are you willing to go if the pattern you perpetuate can hurt you?
Your question: Alright, so how do I figure out what the thing is that I am not addressing? The back-up plan that I have is to live off of family support (a huge strain on them, not a rich family).
Easy: by questioning assumptions… and giving the answers a chance. Creativity thrives when the need comes.
e.g If you assume that the spare solution would be to live off family support maybe you omitted other options you haven’t thought of yet ( I imagine you went though this already but sometimes there is a door wide open and we just miss it ) including the one that you may be lucky and things would turn out even better.
Don’t forget that where there is a lot of dark shadows there is necessarily a lot of sunshine.
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Edited by - catspine on 06/09/2010 14:48:16 |
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RageSootheRatio
Canada
430 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2010 : 12:45:39
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Hi Jamie
sorry to hear you are still suffering so much. In case anything here might be helpful ...
How is your "rage / soothe" ratio doing? Are you getting enough soothing in your life, to make up for all the (known) stressors you are having to deal with?
I was dx'd with IC but that was long after I had used Dr Sarno's books to help with a chronic pain problem, and so completely dismissed the doctor's opinion. Can't say my "IC" has gotten better nor worse since then, but haven't really worked on it in any concentrated way either. It is more of an annoyance and inconvenience to me. Sometimes in the night I tell myself (like Brady's book suggests) that it is just TMS and it is time to go back to sleep; other times I will just like get up 5 times a night (literally) and just go back to sleep.
>Having had all sorts of chronic pain (including a year and a half of excruciating migraines 4-5 times a week a few years ago), I can tell you that bladder urgency is much more stressful than most other types of pain out there.
I don't find my bladder issues that stressful though, and compared to the chronic pain problems I had which were a LOT more stressful for me, my stress around it is *definitely* minor in comparison. If your knock-out migraines were less stressful than your bladder urgency, then your IC would clearly function as a major MAJOR "distraction" from other feelings.
In terms of anxiety issues, I found yoga, hypnosis and meditation less helpful than David Berceli's Trauma Release Exercise (TRE). There is a long thread on the boards here if you do a search.
Have you read Scott Brady's book? When I have a flare-up sometimes I think about committing to doing his program for 6 weeks (ie time-limited) to see if it will work for me, but haven't gotten to that stage (of commitment) yet. I am currently doing the Solution Method (currently called Emotional Brain Training - EBT) to deal with the longer-term stress issues in my life. It also involves a concentrated form of journalling. I am finding it one of the most helpful things I've done overall, along with the TRE and Dr Sarno's work. |
Edited by - RageSootheRatio on 06/11/2010 09:26:26 |
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n/a
48 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2010 : 18:14:32
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catspine: I really wish you would just believe me when I say that right now, quitting my job is simply not doable. Without going into details, my husband and I have a lot of educational debt to pay off and if I quit my job, we may no longer have an income, period, aside from however my family can help. Let's just leave it at that: right now, any ways to get better will need to happen in the context of remaining in my current career.
And yes, I am resentful of "having to" do things, and that we are in this situation, which makes it not particularly "unconscious". As to control: I am happy to give up control when someone equally competent steps up to the plate. My husband is not very proactive in some areas, and so often I have to be the one who figures out the direction and how to achieve our goals.
Rage: I do have a hard time finding soothing things. I like fast-paced stuff when it comes to fun (e.g. video games), but I don't think they end up being too soothing. ;)I am living in a city for professional reasons and none of my close friends are here.
I suspect that your bladder issues are less pronounced than mine and other people's because most people who have IC and other issues experience the IC as the worst. The pain is horrendous, and to be stuck in a situation without a bathroom when in such pain is a nightmare.
As to the distraction effect: if that's entirely the case and your bladder issues are not a major stress or something you've done much about (i.e. they're not a huge distraction and therefore don't really serve the purpose of TMS symptoms), then why do you believe they haven't improved at all?
I will look up the books you mentioned, but at this point I have read so many books that I have gotten relatively hopeless about finding help that way. What do you do when the mind-body work feels extremely boring and not soothing at all? And mind you, I have no problems thinking and talking about my feelings per se, even for prolonged periods of time.
Maybe part of my problem is that I don't really have a deep desire to find "happiness" and zen-like relaxation as such. As in, it would be nice, but to me it really feels like "work" right now. But perhaps I am just addicted to adrenaline in various forms (though not in the danger sports way or anything like that - more like, addicted to success/stress/etc) and so any other way feels like an insurmountable mountain right now.
I guess what I am trying to say is that it's very discouraging to feel as if regaining some semblance of health has to be achieved through more work, annoying things, boredom, etc. Has anyone felt that way and, if so, what did they do to make mind-body work seem like more fun to them? Right now, it just seems like another thing I "have to" do, which makes me angry on some level. Is there any mind-body stuff that doesn't require SLOW activities??
Thanks for the input! |
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catspine
USA
239 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2010 : 07:27:25
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It is psychological law that whatever we desire to accomplish we must impress upon the subjective or subconscious mind.
Orison Swett Marden
Jamie
Thanks for replying. Is there something that makes you think I do not believe you cannot afford to quit? It is obvious to me too that it would have serious consequences and that a different solution would be more indicated. My point was to try to determine what you were or were not aware of that could have been an indirect cause.
The reasoning behind that was that it's not what you are aware of that sustains the hidden rage responsible for the symptoms according to Dr.Sarno it is what you are NOT aware of . The former just helps to fill up the pool. In my experience I tend to agree with that but I also believe that if the symptoms disappear as long as the cause of the rage or other undesirable emotions remains unconscious a relapse later is more likely hence the need to bring it into consciousness smoothly if it is a matter for concern.
Dr Sarno's observations and experience led him to his theory that knowledge of the reason for the pain is sufficient to reverse the symptoms and having experienced that I believe it must be true at least for the number of people for whom it worked but in severe cases it's not enough.
You acquired the knowledge and believed enough in that theory to commit to it for a long time so I understand your skepticism if after all this time you're not getting much better but you still don't know what unconscious emotions is causing the conflict at this time and if it is too strong the process continues . One thing is certain: there is a conflict.
note:
It doesn’t matter how much time goes by with M/B issues because what‘s stored in the unconscious mind is not affected by time.. The content whatever it is can sit there intact ready to be utilized by the brain for a purpose unless it a better one comes to replace it to serve the purpose better or to eventually defeat it. Time can not affect the content, but awareness can. This is why the conscious mind under certain conditions can have an influence in the process. It is a long process.
Supposing you would also identify the emotion(s) responsible by a method of your choice and still after a while there is no real improvement, then you would know at least that TMS is not the cause of your problem.
Because you suspect the disorder to be a M/B syndrome for this reason alone it is already worth it to try to discover the nature of the emotion.
It is also important to discover the nature of the emotion(s) because in case of syndrome equivalents it is easier to address the emotions separately and treat them accordingly.
Nothing to worry about in the control area.
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Edited by - catspine on 06/12/2010 07:52:41 |
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alexis
USA
596 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2010 : 10:26:47
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Hi Jamie,
There's a real inherent conflict on a board like this, likely with no good resolution and no right answer. And unfortunately that's something that people who develop distraction syndromes seem to hate.
Here's the problem (well, a few related problems) that I think some of your posts are starting to get at:
1. Some people need to believe in TMS 100% to get a cure. Others don't. But because Sarno at one point implied that people do need to believe 100%, those in the "need to believe everything" camp don't believe a skeptic can recover. Hence the feedback you see on some threads where people are told "If you don't recover, you don't get it" or "you aren't believing 100%" or extremes like "you definitely have TMS.
2. Most, if not all, people with TMS, will take hearing about "real" conditions as a trigger for something new to worry about. So we try not to say things like "well, maybe you've tried this long enough and actually have physical condition X". Doing that can trigger a whole episode for someone who really *is* still out there picking up distractions. So, truth be told, maybe you do have something else, but here is unfortunately not the place to go into our various ideas on that. You know yourself best (we can only assume) and can judge that better than we can.
3. Some people with TMS are very anti-psychological medication and believe this a part of the theory. But in reality, not only might you have a physical condition, you might also have a psychological condition (TMS or TMS-like) that does require medication. But believe me - this is another topic that can cause a firestorm.
I and others only say this kind of thing rarely because we don't want to stir up worries in those working on their belief and understanding of TMS.
So all that's just by way of explanation. Personally, I'd say if you haven't seen much recovery after a few month's move on. And most of all accept that medicine, TMS or otherwise, is highly fallible and that you may never, ever know what's wrong.
Good Luck.
Alexis |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2010 : 10:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by jamie
I guess what I am trying to say is that it's very discouraging to feel as if regaining some semblance of health has to be achieved through more work, annoying things, boredom, etc. Has anyone felt that way and, if so, what did they do to make mind-body work seem like more fun to them? Right now, it just seems like another thing I "have to" do, which makes me angry on some level. Is there any mind-body stuff that doesn't require SLOW activities??
I'm afraid you may be overthinking this.
First, you seem focused on tracking your progress in terms of reduction in physical symptoms. This is a trap. Effectively, the distraction shifts from the symptoms themselves, to an obsession to get rid of them. It is important to take a long-term view and not get caught up in monitoring the details of the symptoms every day.
While it is important to "do the work" for TMS recovery, this should not become an obsession either. The most important thing is to change your habits -- to think about and react differently to the pain.
Trying too hard is counterproductive. Keep it simple:
1. Ignore the symptoms as best you can. When you experience them, remind yourself that they are psychogenic and shift your thoughts to emotional issues. Try to think about what is going on in your life that may be affecting you more deeply than you realize.
2. Resume physical activity. Try to lead a normal life despite the pain. Push through it and keep reminding yourself there is nothing physically wrong with you and you will not hurt yourself by doing normal physical activities.
Seems like you are trying too hard to find the "perfect" approach. It does not exist. Accept the symptoms as benign and trust that they will fade over time. Be it days, weeks, or months, you should not care. TMS is a bad habit that took a lifetime to develop. It is only natural that it will take time to break it. |
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RageSootheRatio
Canada
430 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2010 : 11:46:44
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Hi Jamie,
>As to the distraction effect: if that's entirely the case and your bladder issues are not a major stress or something you've done much about (i.e. they're not a huge distraction and therefore don't really serve the purpose of TMS symptoms), then why do you believe they haven't improved at all
I don't know ... the more I think about this issue (like, in response to this thread!) the worse it gets. At the beginning, about the time I was dx'd, I guess it was a lot worse, because I thought about it a lot. I noticed when I had a "sinus headache" flare-up (TMS), as it was settling down, I noticed my bladder bothering me more! So I guess it does go up and down.
One thing I like about Brady's book is that he gives some really great examples. For example, he talks about ABORTING the pain in his Achilles tendon (p 37) and what he did in the moment to do that. He talks about what did in the five minutes it took him to do this (what he used for self-talk, what mental exercises he did, HOW he "thought psychologically"). Even though I wasn't sure if Dr Sarno's TMS theory would work for me or not, what gave me confidence was that I had some very early successes in aborting (pretty severe) headaches. I couldn't (and still can't) do it EVERY time, but often enough for me to be pretty happy. :o) (I've never tried to abort a bladder "episode" actually... not sure why it never occurred to me to try that.) Brady also gives an example of one of his patients able to abort a pain attack by doing "depth journalling" for a few minutes in the midst of it. (p 207). So in Brady's book, it isn't so much about just ignoring the pain and putting up with it, while "thinking psychological" and getting on with one's life.
>What do you do when the mind-body work feels extremely boring and not soothing at all?
>Is there any mind-body stuff that doesn't require SLOW activities??
>Despite all the books I have read and techniques I have tried, I am for one simply unable to calm my mind down. I feel jittery, presumably from all the adrenaline etc
>But perhaps I am just addicted to adrenaline
If you are really looking for suggestions here, I would definitely suggest Berceli's Trauma (Stress) Relieving Exercises (TRE). Once you go through the exercises the first time, then you can just do the last one on its own (that's what I did) which can be done while watching TV, playing video games (if you have a handheld one you can use while lying down), reading a book, etc.
BTW, one "cause" of TMS according to Dr Sarno, is simply that the rage-soothe ratio has become too unbalanced, and "soothing" doesn't necessarily have to be something "slow." By definition, it can be "reducing pain and discomfort" ... so anything that does that, could "qualify." Is there ANYTHING that you do / can think of doing, that actually reduces your pain and discomfort? (ie that is soothing to YOU, not what others might consider "soothing".) |
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Still no progress (IC as main problem, IBS second)
