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Gibbon
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
 Posted - 10/07/2009 : 17:10:58
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When reading Dr Sarno's books i was reminded of the book I had previously read by Dr Ramachandran on "phantom limb" pain. I was wondering if the TMS community could benefit from incorporating some of his ideas/evidence. In short, people with phantom limb syndrome continue to "feel" pain in their amputated limb as though it was still present. The condition gives clear evidence that pain can originate in the brain, and not only that, but that pain can be entirely generated in the brain but perceived to be originating somewhere else entirely.
Here is a brief synopsis from wiki (not especially well written, but hey that's open source for you  )
quote:
When an arm or leg is amputated patients continue to vividly feel the presence of the missing limb a "phantom limb". In the early 1990’s Ramachandran began using this phenomenon as a probe for exploring neural plasticity in the adult human brain. Ramachandran suggested that phantom limbs might be due to changes in the brain, rather than in the peripheral nerves.
[snip]
Most patients with phantom arms feel that they can move their phantoms but in many the phantom is fixed or "paralyzed", often in a cramped position that is excruciatingly painful. Ramachandran suggested that this paralysis was because every time the patient attempted to move the paralyzed limb, he or she received sensory feedback (through vision and proprioception) that the limb did not move. This feedback stamped itself into the brain circuitry through a process of Hebbian learning, so that, even when the limb was no longer present, the brain had learned that the limb (and subsequent phantom) was paralyzed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilayanur_S._Ramachandran
At the very least I think that this condition gives weight to the notion of entirely brain generated pain manifested at least experientially as "physical". Taken one step further perhaps it even gives a different take on TMS? maybe the pain sensations notionally coming from one's back or arms etc. are actually entirely generated within one's brain. Any thoughts? |
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pandamonium
United Kingdom
202 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 02:43:27
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Hi Gibbon,
this is something that Dr Shubiner mentions on both his website and on radio interviews I have heard. I find it compelling evidence for TMS (in that the pain signals can still happen a long time after the real pain (eg disc herniation)has subsided)).
You might want to take a look at his blogs, they are very interesting.
http://www.yourpainisreal.com/blog/
Panda
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A beginner's guide to psychology: If it's not your mum's fault.... it's your dad's... |
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Gibbon
United Kingdom
138 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 10:02:45
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Hiya Pandamonium....
looks like i'm not the first to think of it then 
the blogs look good - there's a huge amount there.....
a recommendation for peopleto read Dr Ramachandran's book - it's a fascinating insight into the pecularities of the brain, as is Oliver Sach's "The man who mistook his wife for a hat." |
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pandamonium
United Kingdom
202 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 11:30:38
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If I get a chance I will look up those 2 books on Amazon and add them to the wiki.
Or you could add them to the books & DVDs section if you like, with a few words of your own?
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A beginner's guide to psychology: If it's not your mum's fault.... it's your dad's... |
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Texasrunner
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2009 : 09:50:49
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| Interesting, but not exactly the same thing. Sarno says the pain IS actually physical, just that it is your feelings/emotions that are at the root of it. He is not saying it's "all in your head." He says that your brain (because of supressed rage needing a painful distraction) is using the strategy of mild oxygen deprivation to muscles/tendons to cause very real physical symptoms. |
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pandamonium
United Kingdom
202 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 02:43:20
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I know they are not the same thing but I do think that it's a great illoustration of how we can be in real physical pain once the original source of the pain has subsided (in the case of a herniated disc/tms) or gone altogether (in the case of PLS)!
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A beginner's guide to psychology: If it's not your mum's fault.... it's your dad's... |
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Monte
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 07:50:50
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Interesting and a potential scary path to go down.
IMO, we should take the thought of pain being in our brain out of our thinking. Texasrunner is spot on. The pain and other symptoms in tms are generated through a bio-chemical process in our system...tissue, cells, organs that are deprived of oxygen manifest into pain.
I get the concept of phantom pain and know that it is real. This becomes a slippery slope in reversing tms because is gives the strategy a reason to stay with you and it gives you a reason to believe why you have not reversed the disorder yet. "oh, the reason I am still in pain is because of this phantom stuff I read about".
Now instead of doing the real work of reversing this disorder (changing the way a person generates inner tension and represses emotional energy through their thoughts and behaviors)they are stuck and keeping the strategy in their life trying to reverse phantom pain.
Just a thought.
Monte Hueftle
monte@runningpain.com |
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Peg
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 09:53:53
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>"Interesting, but not exactly the same thing. Sarno says the pain IS actually physical, just that it is your feelings/emotions that are at the root of it. He is not saying it's "all in your head." He says that your brain (because of suppressed rage needing a painful distraction) is using the strategy of mild oxygen deprivation to muscles/tendons to cause very real physical symptoms."
Well said.
>"Now instead of doing the real work of reversing this disorder (changing the way a person generates inner tension and represses emotional energy through their thoughts and behaviors)they are stuck and keeping the strategy in their life trying to reverse phantom pain."
Exactly.
Best,
Peg
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
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Dr Ramanchandran and the generation of pain
