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SarnoFan
USA
72 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2009 : 19:53:56
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Peg and Webdan,
I agree. I still suspect TMS. My son did start Shubiner's program on-line before the herniated disc diagnosis on June 2nd. He started journaling but did not do it regularly because he was busy with exams...and not that motivated to do it. 18 year old boys are not that diligent. Also, he's probably not convinced yet that it is TMS 100% and that the program needs to help him from the "inside out" not by "osmosis". I told him that just doing the course will not help. He really needs to understand his thinking process and how his body responds to stress. After the injection(s), he will move closer to TMS therapy, or be cured "physically". Either way.
Here's an interesting story for all TMS doubters (including my son, who heard it first hand today):
While waiting for my son's injection, there was a lady in the waiting room who brought her sister in for an injection as well. Her sister has pain from having broken her back from an accident and two surgeries and titanium rods put in. She is still in pain after two years.
Now, the interesting part is that the sister (who brought her in) told us that she ALSO broke her back and neck years ago, and then again broke her neck a second time falling down 3 flights of stairs. She has titanium rods in her back and rods in her neck. She showed me the scars in her back and the front of her neck from years ago. She said, "...and I have no pain, imagine that! Just had pain during the initial healing phase."
How is it possible to hurt yourself so badly twice, have surgeries with steel repairs, and be in NO PAIN?
Whereas the TMSers have pain with much less damage and repair?
This proves that pain is very subjective and can't be measured by type of injury or MRIs. I use her as an example to my son now. She is in her late 40's and healed, with no pain. Her sister has pain.
Different personalities? |
Edited by - SarnoFan on 06/23/2009 19:58:35 |
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PRCalDude
49 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2009 : 15:31:27
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quote:
Originally posted by SarnoFan
Peg and Webdan,
I agree. I still suspect TMS. My son did start Shubiner's program on-line before the herniated disc diagnosis on June 2nd. He started journaling but did not do it regularly because he was busy with exams...and not that motivated to do it. 18 year old boys are not that diligent. Also, he's probably not convinced yet that it is TMS 100% and that the program needs to help him from the "inside out" not by "osmosis". I told him that just doing the course will not help. He really needs to understand his thinking process and how his body responds to stress. After the injection(s), he will move closer to TMS therapy, or be cured "physically". Either way.
Here's an interesting story for all TMS doubters (including my son, who heard it first hand today):
While waiting for my son's injection, there was a lady in the waiting room who brought her sister in for an injection as well. Her sister has pain from having broken her back from an accident and two surgeries and titanium rods put in. She is still in pain after two years.
Now, the interesting part is that the sister (who brought her in) told us that she ALSO broke her back and neck years ago, and then again broke her neck a second time falling down 3 flights of stairs. She has titanium rods in her back and rods in her neck. She showed me the scars in her back and the front of her neck from years ago. She said, "...and I have no pain, imagine that! Just had pain during the initial healing phase."
How is it possible to hurt yourself so badly twice, have surgeries with steel repairs, and be in NO PAIN?
Whereas the TMSers have pain with much less damage and repair?
Exactly.
quote:
This proves that pain is very subjective and can't be measured by type of injury or MRIs. I use her as an example to my son now. She is in her late 40's and healed, with no pain. Her sister has pain.
Different personalities?
Yep. Anyone with more than one child or who has siblings knows that siblings vary widely in personality. It's probably a "portfolio diversification" by-product of our evolution. For example, Ghengis Khan produced many offspring. But, based on his personality, he was most likely to produce few and to be childless due to an early death. If a mother had children with identical personalities (ie, like that of Ghengis Khan), she would have fewer surviving children.
In this case, one sister has a ton of structural damage and no pain and the inverse is true for the sister. It has to be the effect of personality. |
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SarnoFan
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2009 : 17:17:31
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Update:
My son had the epidural injection 6/23/09 and we went on a long car trip the next two days (7+6 hrs). His sciatic pain was relieved but did have some outer ankle pain on/off. The injection site was very sore and we applied ice. He felt better after our vacation began, but he was still sore in the low back and right buttock. Especially after getting up from a sitting position.
I imagine that the soreness is from the muscle spasm/tension which is very slow to release (either from TMS or the herniated disc).
He has had some moderately active days and has felt better during the activity but ended up being very sore the following day.
Still struggling to confirm if it's TMS or true discogenic pain. Time will tell I guess.
I am keeping his spirits up by telling him that even if the pain is initially from the disc, it should subside within two months (it was at its worst 5/24/09 and diagnosed as herniation at 6/2/09) and the rest is TMS. He needs to remain active, and focus on returning to full activity and not fear further injury.
He is scheduled for two more injections(3 weeks apart).I am thinking he should not have them at this point because the Dr. said they are mostly for the sciatic pain and less effective for back pain. The sciatic pain is gone, therefore I see no need for more injections.
Now that we are back from vacation, he will try to focus on Dr. Shubiner's program. I am optimistic about it but he is gets down after having increased soreness the days following increased activity. I told him he must not let pain stop him and that eventually it will subside/disappear.
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SarnoFan
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 16:30:44
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INTERESTING ARTICLE (pasted below) ON TEENAGE ATHLETES SUPPORTS DR. SARNO's FINDINGS IN GENERAL. ALTHOUGH THE ARTICLE BELIEVES THAT THE EXCESSIVE TRAINING CAUSES DAMAGE, THESE ATHLETES ARE NOT IN PAIN! AND MANY PEOPLE IN PAIN AS ADULTS WERE NOT ELITE ATHLETES. KEEP THIS IN MIND AS YOU READ THE FINDINGS. I find this interesting for my son's case.
LONDON, July 19 -- Elite teenage tennis players with realistic visions of Wimbledon may be developing silent lumbar-spine abnormalities, researchers reported. Action Points
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Explain to interested patients that this small study suggests that the intense training techniques for young elite tennis players need to be modified to reduce the risk of progressive musculoskeletal damage during their vulnerable growth-spurt years.
Stress injuries during the growth-spurt years are thought to play a role in the increased occurrence rates of musculoskeletal injuries in players' late-teen years, David Connell, M.D., of the Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital in London, and colleagues reported online in the British Journal of Sports Medicine.
Until now, few studies have looked at the risk factors predisposing the athletes to these injuries, and, beyond rest, little is known about possible preventive measures, Dr. Connell noted.
In an observational study of 33 asymptomatic elite adolescent tennis players, MRI scans found injuries in 28 (85%).
The players (18 male), mean age 17.3 (16 to 23), were recruited from a national tennis center.
Sagittal T1, T2, STIR (sagittal short tau inversion recovery images), and axial T2 weighted MRI images were reviewed by two radiologists.
Five players (15.2%) had a normal MRI, and the rest had abnormal studies, including synovial cysts, disc degeneration or herniation, pars lesions (fracture or stress reaction), and facet joint arthropathy, the most common finding, the researchers reported.
Abnormalities occurred predominately in the lower lumbar spine, almost exclusively at L4/ L5 and L5/ S1. Pars injuries and facet joint arthroses (in 70%) were also present, the researchers said.
Nine players showed pars lesions (10 lesions; one at two levels) predominately at L5 (nine at L5; one at L4).
Three of the 10 lesions were complete fractures; two showed grade 1 and grade 2 spondylolisthesis, both of which resulted in moderate narrowing of the L5 exit foramen.
There were two acute and five chronic stress pars reactions.
Twenty three patients showed signs of early facet arthropathy occurring at L5 and S1 (15 of 29 joints) and L4 and L5 (12 of 29 joints).
These were classified as mild degeneration (20 of 29 joints) and moderate degeneration (nine of 29 joints), with 20 of 29 showing sclerosis and 24 of 29 showing hypertrophy of the facet joint.
Synovial cysts were identified in 14 of the 29 joints. Fifteen players showed some disk desiccation and disk bulging (mild in 13; moderate in two) most often at L4 and L5 and L5 and S1 (12 of 15 disks).
Some of these injuries are acute or chronic stress responses and may be related to rotation, hyperextension (especially during serve), and flexion forces on the lumbar spine during play, Dr. Connell said.
Also, compared with other sports, tennis requires considerably more repetitive and rapid rotation and stretching of the lower spine. Furthermore, he said, the increased speed and types of strokes used in modern tennis all cause wear and tear on the lower back.
For example, the ground stroke, which is more front-facing, may increase rotational forces about the facet joint, especially when topspin is added, and particularly on hard courts, and also when a two-handed stroke is used.
In addition, the researchers said, increased speed of the ball, especially on grass courts, may play a part in the increased degree of rotation needed to return and control the ball.
A limitation of the study was its small size, a consequence of the dearth of British elite tennis players, the researchers said. Whether the players in this study were actually asymptomatic could be another factor. High motivation to return to their sport and strong career motivation may have caused players to under-report pain.
The large proportion of asymptomatic abnormalities in the players underlines the poor specificity of these findings, and other sources of pain should be considered, the researchers wrote.
These findings can serve as the baseline for a future prospective longitudinal cohort study with the aim of following the natural progression of changes and identifying the radiological risk factors for morbidity, Dr. Connell said.
Recognition of these changes, he said, is important so that training techniques can be modified to prevent progression to symptomatic disease.
No financial conflicts were reported. This study was funded by the Lawn Tennis Association.
Primary source: British Journal of Sports Medicine
Source reference:
Alyas F, et al "MRI findings in the lumbar spines of asymptomatic, adolescent, elite tennis players" Br J Sports Med 2007 :11-6. DOI:101136/bjsm.2007.037747.
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JoeyT
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 19:01:05
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Interesting study.
If you did an MRI of all of the lower backs of all elite level athletes in all sports, I think you would be hard pressed to find a normal one..Look at football, there is no way ANY of them have normal lower back MRI. But back surgery is a very rare thing in football. Honestly I don't hear of very many in any of the sports...Also think about how much these athletes weight train all year...
In fact Sarnofan I would bet a lot of money that your son has teammates on his team with disc issues as bad as his but have no pain...Again I do not see how you can play elite level sports(especially football) and not have some back abnormalites..But how many have back pain, not many and if they do it does not last for weeks and months... |
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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 21:19:19
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Here's the challenge. When continuing activity before the pain has subsided enough, you definitely can fall into the trap of believing "I worked out or played sports and it hurt the next day - so therefore it MUST be physical."
I'm not suggesting that your son sit on the couch for weeks or months with no activity at all. However, Sarno does point out that you should resume activity when the pain has reduced enough. Doing it too soon will delay progress. Not because you are hurting yourself physically, but because TMS has not let go of the pain yet and combining physical activity with pain will keep you soooo focused on the body that TMS won't let go.
As for the injections - I agree and say no. Injections are very invasive and are done strictly for relief, not for a cure. Not only that - further injections will keep you and your son focused on the body.
TMS treatment is the least invasive process possible. All it requires is a change in your thinking. A change in your self talk and mental programming. A change in your belief system. And it does require banishing fear. I'm not sure if your son has bought into TMS yet - but it doesn't sound like you have either. You sound like a believer, yet you question it.
When you say: "Still struggling to confirm if it's TMS or true discogenic pain. Time will tell I guess." That is clearly doubt.
I'm not criticizing you at all. We all have our doubts. In my experience in 12 years of fighting TMS on and off. I am only successful when I have eliminated all thoughts of a physical cause from the equation.
A parting question: What harm could come by completely devoting oneself to the Sarno method of treating the pain? There's no invasive procedures at all. And....your son can continue to resume activity as he is able. No different than he's doing now.
But every visit to a traditional doctor. Every injection. Every conversation that says you are waiting to confirm TMS or "discogenic pain" feeds the TMS engine.
Fear and programming are playing a big part in your sons continued pain. He expects to feel bad a day after he is pretty active. And sure enough - he is. If the disc were really the problem - why wouldn't it hurt during the activity?
I'm not sure where I'm going with this rant - but I do believe you and your son won't see progress as long as you continue giving credibility to the disk diagnosis and the belief that the pain is from a "real problem".
Just my two cents. Hope it helps.
Dive into Shubiners course 110%.
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SarnoFan
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2009 : 23:47:52
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I agree Webdan. I am struggling with the TMS vs Physical in my son's case. I seem to be asking and answering my own questions with my own posts! In one post I am confused and in the next one I post evidence that herniated discs or broken backs are not related to long term pain.
I believe the struggle for me has to do with the fact that it is not about me, but about my son. I was convinced of TMS in my own pain experiences after 2 long battles to cure my own pain over the years. I now answer my pain/symptom flare ups with "Oh,here we go again. What's bugging me now?". Knowing, with confidence, there is nothing to fear and it goes away. (BTW I have herniated discs too, but they were discovered while looking for something else).
Because my son is a young athlete and just got the MRI diagnosis, it all got hurled at us: appointments for treatments were set up immediately which further clouded my own thinking and response.
Then I have my husband, the other caring parent, who is a scientist and who has never had chronic pain. (Yet, he has been through worse traumatic experiences than me and most others.) He consults with not one, but TWO friends who are neurosurgeons, and two other doctor friends who tell him "this is serious stuff and proper treatment/rehab must take place" . He tells me I could be setting up our son with further disability if I don't follow our doctors' advice, and we need to wait/back off on the TMS stuff. He says it in front of our son which causes more stress.
So it is not just a battle between me and my own mind. Or my son and his mind. I guess I've been doubting myself out of respect for a father's opinion, the sake of science and perhaps my own insecurity with my child's suffering.
Nonetheless, there is hope and light at the end of this tunnel and I foresee this thread ending happily at some point.
Today, my son did a lot of physical activity and reported he feels great. He was so happy and at peace. He said he will continue Shubiner's program and get on with "TMS therapy". At the same time, my husband set up an appointment to take him to physical therapy tomorrow to discuss what he should/should not be doing. I warned that this may cause his symptoms to increase only because he will be focusing on the physical.
I told my son to look at it as one "last stab" at physical treatment and to confirm the TMS theory. I also explained to my son that his dad's thinking is completely rational because that's how 99% of the world sees it, and that "dad" has never battled the TMS demon, therefore, how could he EVER understand it? It sounds crazy if you have never been forced to face it.
This is why this forum is so valuable to TMSers. We know we are not nuts..we're just "too sensitive" ,"fearful" and "chronic worriers".
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SarnoFan
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2009 : 19:37:03
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My son cancelled his second epidural ijnection, stopped going to PT and has been doing the Shubiner on-line therapy/journaling, although not daily. His back is more flexible now, but he still has a "knot" in his upper right glute that "catches" him when he gets up from a sitting position and causes him to limp until he walks a little and then it subsides. Bending over still bothers him but he is now able to flex all the way backwards (which he couldn't do before). He is feeling better more days now.
There really is a growing epidemic of back pain/herniation diagnoses lately and the victims are getting younger. I don't remember, in all my years growing up, hearing of people with back pain starting in their teens or twenties.
My son's friend, just got a 2nd injection yesterday and quit his summer job because of back pain. He doesn't play sports. I walked into my office yesterday and a 25 yr old had her arm in a sling. She said it is to keep her arm from extending because she got a herniated disc in her neck while playing with her niece in the pool. She spent the night in the ER and got an MRI. She's terrified about getting surgery. She feels her arm is numb.
Geez! Where were all these young people two decades ago?
I tell them to relax, the disc issue may be coincidental and not a direct cause of their current symptoms, and all they may be having is an acute spasm! This really does go over their head, afterall, who am I to know better than their neurosurgeon!
Anyhow, I will keep posting until my son is back to playing his sport pain free! He is optimistic. But the fear does creep back in on and off.
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Edited by - SarnoFan on 07/17/2009 19:47:43 |
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SarnoFan
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2009 : 23:04:27
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It has been 10 days since I updated this thread. My son is doing better. He's going to the gym daily, easing into his sport and stopped thinking about "TMS" too. He takes 2 Aleve if needed, and maybe a sports massage the day after a game (as he conditions himself to increased activity).
He said that a daily obsession with TMS "treatment" itself was also making him focus too much on his pain! He has simply accepted the TMS theory: that his pain will decrease, cease and maybe even return sometimes. He also didn't like journaling daily. He journals only if he "feels" something really bothering him and/or his pain increases.
The word "disc" doesn't come up anymore. Instead, he is visualizing having fun in college and playing his sport again.
As a family we no longer focus on his pain or the disc diagnosis.
We cancelled all follow up treatments and appointments so that we are no longer reminded about "the disc".
Basically, he got the TMS concept, forgot the disc, stopped fearing his back, and got back to doing physical activity slowly. I would say he is 75% better now and still improving.
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Edited by - SarnoFan on 07/26/2009 23:15:04 |
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SarnoFan
USA
72 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2009 : 14:16:22
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Update: My son is doing better. He is playing his sport three times a week, going to the gym, but not at 100% yet. He is still stiff and sore in the mornings. No magic cure yet, but he is soooo much better!
His spirits are up and is doing well. |
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Help: 18 yr old son diagnosed with RUPTURED DISC
