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flutterby
United Kingdom
79 Posts |
 Posted - 05/26/2009 : 04:31:00
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Hi Jim
Thank you for being so persistent - it has made me think and something occurred to me whilst gardening over the weekend, as it often does!
I suddenly realised that even though I have previously made a point of not consciously dwelling on my pain, I was thinking about it more or less constantly on a different level! I’m not sure if you could call it a ‘subconscious’ level, strictly speaking, so instead, I will try to describe it using an analogy.
A part of the Pain Management routine I’ve been practising for years is ‘pacing’ and an important part of that, which has enabled me to do a lot of things I might have otherwise been unable to do, has been breaking activities down into small, manageable chunks. In practice this means alternating between sitting, standing, walking, vigorous activities and less vigorous ones. To do this successfully I have had to be aware of when to change activity which has meant being aware of pain signals on some level.
(I live and work mostly alone and I actually only realise I’m doing it when I’m with other people and I need to change activity (eg sit down, walk around) when they don’t!)
I see it as a bit like changing gear when you are driving a car. At first, as a learner, you listen to the sound of the engine as a guide as to when to change gear. But gradually you seem to do it automatically, without consciously listening to the engine. This is something like what I’ve trained myself to do re my pain. I apparently change activities automatically when I need to, in order to keep my pain ‘manageable’, but there must be an awareness of my pain going on at some level, just as there is some degree of awareness of the engine sound going on whilst driving.
For me, and I realise that this probably doesn’t apply to people in general, when I try to follow Dr Sarno’s treatment ‘prescription’, talking to my brain and so on, it’s a bit as if I had suddenly switched to a futuristic car that operated by voice recognition! ie to make it change gear (in this case switching from thinking physical to thinking psychological) you would have to start listening to the engine sound again as the ‘automaticity’ with which you had learnt to change gear manually would no longer apply. So, by analogy, I think I have been ‘listening out’ for changes in my pain level more consciously recently. I am not saying that this is a helpful thing to do but I think it is understandable in my circumstances.
If, as I hope, I will be able to get a clear diagnosis of TMS, I can only suppose that the way forward is to try to break my ‘pacing’ habit and all that it has entailed - which is going to be quite challenging as I’ve done it for so long and it has served me pretty well! However, what has been learned can be unlearned!
I hope this makes some sort of sense.
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Edited by - flutterby on 05/26/2009 04:33:47 |
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flutterby
United Kingdom
79 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2009 : 05:32:42
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PS I’ve been surprised and a bit disappointed that Dr Sarno doesn’t mention Pain Management Programmes, along with surgery, physiotherapy and medication as inappropriate in cases of TMS and wonder whether they are perhaps not as common on the other side of the pond as they have been in the UK for the past 20 years or so?
This is the sort of thing I’m referring to!
http://www.painsupport.co.uk/data/df_viewreplies.asp?topic=5221
Much of this forum makes me feel really sad as I feel sure that there are people there who have TMS!
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Jim1999
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2009 : 22:39:49
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Hi Flutterby,
Yes, that makes sense.
Your description of pacing really brought back memories of my chronic pain days. While I never used the word "pacing" and I didn't monitor my pain level constantly, I did vary my position and activities a lot. I used to have a timer in the back of my mind (so to speak) that would keep track of when it was time to change activities and positions (sitting, standing, lying down). I used to live in fear that I would get wrapped up in some activity and forget to take a break from sitting, and that this would cause irreversible muscle damage. I'm so glad to not have to live with that kind of fear anymore!
That was one of many bad habits I had to break to recover from TMS. Yes, it was hard to break some of those habits, but it certainly was worth the effort.
I wish you the best in your efforts to overcome TMS.
Jim
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pandamonium
United Kingdom
202 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2009 : 15:24:13
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Hi Flutterby,
my dear sister believes that I have a physical condition which causes me pain, which can be heightened by fear and conditioning (both of which I am guilty of in spades) but she in no way accepts that it could be an emotional cause, she just doesn't believe it's possible, and I gave up trying to persuade her after only one discussion because basically she'll never listen to me. But actually believing this is the basis of recovery as Dave states, it's the crux of the matter. I DO believe, and I am 99% pain free.
Some years ago I was told by a physiotherapist that my body could "learn" a pain response to certain conditions. Eg decorating caused me back pain, so she suggested limiting my decorating time to say 20mins in order to quit before the pain kicked in, and in this way she said I could re-train my body not to expect pain, and gradually things would improve. This sounds similar to your pacing strategy, but although she was on the right track in some respects she was off in others. She didn't have the full picture, her way does manage the pain but it never really gets rid of it because it's not addressing the cause of the symptoms.
I did get a diagnosis from Dr Atkinson, and if you could see the Dr on the south coast maybe it would help you move on, it helped me a lot.
Panda
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A beginner's guide to psychology: If it's not your mum's fault.... it's your dad's... |
Edited by - pandamonium on 05/31/2009 15:25:26 |
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flutterby
United Kingdom
79 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2009 : 16:31:46
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Hi Panda - yes, you're right about what your physiotherapist taught you being a form of 'pacing'. In fact the example given in a book on Coping with Pain that I read in the early nineties was about decorating! It is far, far better than taking medication or constantly doctor-shopping and I've been surprised at how much it improved the quality of my life once I'd got into the habit. But it doesn't go all the way!
If you'd asked me previously how long I could sit comfortably, I'd have said 20 mins at the most. In fact I often do sit much longer than that if I'm absorbed in something but I'll tend to fidget and even get up and stretch. And yet earlier today I realised at the end of the online wiki-tour that I'd sat in one position for well over two hours and only got up eventually because there were things I needed to to do!
I've been experimenting with gardening too. Previously I'd thought I was lucky to be able to do quite a lot in the garden (unlike some people I know with similar 'difficulties', who are afraid to do anything!) by doing it in 30-40 mins stretches, even though it's an awful nuisance to have to keep changing into and out of gardening clothes for such a short time! The past few weekends I've done several 2-hour stretches, some of which has involved carrying big terra cotta pots full of compost through from my back garden to my front garden etc (My daughter said she wouldn't even do that herself!) No problems!!
So I think my 'acting as if' policy is paying off now. I had wondered about maybe going down to Tunbridge Wells to stay with my daughter and seeing the TMS doctor in Brighton while I was there. But it will be some months before I can possibly do that because of work - and maybe by then I'll have drawn a conclusion for myself and won't need to? 
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pandamonium
United Kingdom
202 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2009 : 07:24:45
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That's great, hopefully you'll carry on doing well and not need to see him eh?
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A beginner's guide to psychology: If it's not your mum's fault.... it's your dad's... |
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hottm8oh
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2009 : 08:51:10
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To answer your original question, absolutely 1000% yes. Now that I'm mostly pain-free, I know that my biggest obstacle in overcoming the pain was the fear of the pain itself. If I felt a slight twang of pain, I would start to panic and obsess over how long it would last and how bad it would get. This would then make my pain increase steadily making me more upset which would then give me more pain. It was a nasty snowball effect. It took me awhile to figure this out since the generally accepted protocol is to think about your anger. I would spend time desperately trying to figure out what I was mad about, such as anger over my childhood experiences or issues at work. It had nothing to do with those things. It was my anger at TMS, at the pain, at my inability to control my own body.
I also know that for me personally, my pain sometimes flares up when I'm in perfectionist mode. Again, it took me awhile to recognize this because I kept focusing on the wrong things. One of the most helpful things I found on this forum was Webdan's post about what to say when you talk to yourself. It really pushed me over the edge to recovery.
The best advice I can give you is to figure out what works for YOU even if it doesn't fit nicely into a pretty TMS box. |
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EileenTM
92 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2009 : 13:53:37
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Could you explain this a little more please. I am intrigued by this approach. I do not have pain because I know without a doubt that is TMS. Instead I have foggy brain, fatigue and general lack of enthusiasm for life. Plus I have this loop in my brain that constantly tells me how poorly I feel and that I will never get better. I try to ignore it. Journalling helps some. But I do not really have childhood issues. Just the usual life stuff that we all seem to have. I do have perfectionist tendancies but became aware of those several decades ago and now try to give myself a break.
What you say about TMS and the pain or symptoms sounds like something I could use. How exactly do you apply that? It sounds like that was a real break through for you. Thanks!
EileenTM |
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pandamonium
United Kingdom
202 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2009 : 15:44:02
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Hottm8oh, I completely identify with what you say about fear.
I found this diagram on a website which is really neat. It sums up for me why some people end up semi disabled with back pain and why others shrug it off; take a look.
http://www.neurosymptoms.org/#/pain/4533053153
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A beginner's guide to psychology: If it's not your mum's fault.... it's your dad's... |
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hottm8oh
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 10:32:04
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quote:
Originally posted by EileenTM
Could you explain this a little more please. I am intrigued by this approach. I do not have pain because I know without a doubt that is TMS. Instead I have foggy brain, fatigue and general lack of enthusiasm for life. Plus I have this loop in my brain that constantly tells me how poorly I feel and that I will never get better. I try to ignore it. Journalling helps some. But I do not really have childhood issues. Just the usual life stuff that we all seem to have. I do have perfectionist tendancies but became aware of those several decades ago and now try to give myself a break.
What you say about TMS and the pain or symptoms sounds like something I could use. How exactly do you apply that? It sounds like that was a real break through for you. Thanks!
EileenTM
The bolded part above is probably holding you back. It's really hard to ignore it, because even if you're not thinking it, you still believe it. You have to work on creating a new inner dialogue, and eventually you will come to believe it. Take a "fake it 'til you make it" approach. Tell yourself that there is nothing physically wrong and the pain will go away. It may not go away the moment you want it to, but it will go away.
I spent a couple of weeks taking time to work on my inner dialogue. It was a lot like a moment of meditation. I got rid of distractions and said things to myself like, "I am not injured," "There is nothing wrong with my back," "I will be pain-free," "I will not be afraid of my symptoms." After a few weeks of that, I just started repeating, "I am not broken," over and over in my head. I would do it in the car, while brushing my teeth, while cleaning the house. I ultimately discovered that just using the inner dialogue once a day for 30 minutes meant that I was spending the rest of the day with a doom and gloom mentality. I had to carry the positive reinforcement everywhere with me.
Now when I do have occasional pain, I try to stick to that inner dialogue. I've had pain for the past two days, and at first I racked my brain trying to figure out WHY. Then I thought that it didn't matter why. I was perpetuating the pain trying to figure out the why. I probably will never know the real why behind today's pain, and that's OK. What I do know is that it WILL go away, and I just have to keep reminding myself of that. |
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hsb
149 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 13:07:37
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hottm8oh wrote:
To answer your original question, absolutely 1000% yes. Now that I'm mostly pain-free, I know that my biggest obstacle in overcoming the pain was the fear of the pain itself. If I felt a slight twang of pain, I would start to panic and obsess over how long it would last and how bad it would get. This would then make my pain increase steadily making me more upset which would then give me more pain. It was a nasty snowball effect
that is me in a nutshell. I definitely panic and obsess about how long my pains will last. That is my inner dialogue constantly - this is not going to go away soon, how do i make it go away quickly, is this something that is not tms and needs to be treated, etc. etc.
thanks for your response about creating a new inner dialogue. i'm trying. i am running through my pain and trying to get a new mantra to get me through.
thaks |
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EileenTM
92 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2009 : 19:13:23
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Thank you so much. That is very helpful. I think I have TMS without the pain. Who needs the pain, if you have the loop and think something is wrong. That is a huge distraction. You hit the nail on the head when you talked about meditating for 30 minutes then spending the rest of the day thinking you are "broken." I now remember how this all came about. I had hip pain and started to obsess over it. I got rid of the pain, but kept the obsessing part. Then I started obsessing about what emotions I might be repressing.
Again, more distraction from just real living. So now I have a way to handle it as it comes up and then go back to the living part! Thanks.
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Peg
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2009 : 05:16:54
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This thread is excellent. Thanks to everyone for posting. Flutterby, Hottm8oh, Panda, EileenTM and hsb---- While I have found relief from my physical pains using the tms theory, I think I've been stuck obsessing about recovering, what I'm repressing and then emotional pain, due to the reasons you mention.
"....I know that my biggest obstacle in overcoming the pain was the fear of the pain itself. If I felt a slight twang of pain, I would start to panic and obsess over how long it would last and how bad it would get."
Well said Hott. This is why my initial pain (which may have been due to an injury) persisted. I was worried and fearful.
"...I think I have TMS without the pain. Who needs the pain, if you have the loop and think something is wrong. That is a huge distraction. You hit the nail on the head when you talked about meditating for 30 minutes then spending the rest of the day thinking you are "broken." I now remember how this all came about. I had hip pain and started to obsess over it. I got rid of the pain, but kept the obsessing part. Then I started obsessing about what emotions I might be repressing.
Again, more distraction from just real living. So now I have a way to handle it as it comes up and then go back to the living part! Thanks."
Well said Eileen. We can think of ourselves as broken in more than one way. We may realize we are not physically broken, but in my case, I think I just switched to believing I was broken emotionally, obsessing over that and how to fix myself. As you say more distraction from just real living. But why do you think we do this? Why can't we be happy, content, peaceful, comfortable in our own skin, confident?
Perhaps as Hott says it is due to the constant negative self talk and when we re-program those thoughts, we can feel better. But is that ignoring the cause? Perhaps not, maybe that's what we need to do to change those negative beliefs we created based on messages we received as children combined with our particular personalities and our interpretation of the world around us.
Then again, I may be overthinking again:)
Peg
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
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flutterby
United Kingdom
79 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2009 : 06:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Peg
Perhaps as Hott says it is due to the constant negative self talk and when we re-program those thoughts, we can feel better. But is that ignoring the cause? Perhaps not, maybe that's what we need to do to change those negative beliefs we created based on messages we received as children combined with our particular personalities and our interpretation of the world around us.
Peg, I've just finished reading a book with an intriguing title - 'The Power of Negative Thinking' by Tony Humphreys, a clinical psychologist and a deeply compassionate man. The main thrust of the book, as I understand it, is that no amount of reprogramming our thoughts will really work until we heal the emotional wounds which led to our 'negative thinking' (which the author re-names 'protective thinking'). He assures us that this 'protective thinking' is absolutely necessary until we are able to heal those wounds and feel 'safe' enough to dispense with our negative/protective thinking.
Makes sense to me! 
BTW, there is a chapter on how illnesses and stress symptoms can be 'protective', which I think ties in with Dr Sarno's work!
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Edited by - flutterby on 06/05/2009 06:41:31 |
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Peg
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2009 : 09:19:05
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Thank you so much for that thoughtful response fluterby. I think you are exactly right. That sounds like a another good book. So many books and so little time:)
This morning after typing that post, I opened up the Presence Process book to a random page and read something similar to what you wrote. He says that trying to re-program your thoughts without healing the wounds that have created them is futile since it tampers with the effects rather than the causal point (the true cause).
Yes I see where it ties in with Dr. Sarno's work. I like it when he says in some of his interviews,...."think of your pain as your friend, it's trying to tell you something".
I like the term "protective thinking" rather than negative thinking. Boy, that's a perspective I never considered. I just figured it was a bad habit and a failing/weakness/abnormality of mine. Just another thing I couldn't do right. Like, I can't even live my life right, I'm miserable and I shouldn't be, I'm ungrateful for all that I have in my life (guilt!), I haven't accomplished anything, am not living a life I want to (but what the heck do I want?), etc
Thanks,
Peg
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
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hottm8oh
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2009 : 09:22:06
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quote:
Originally posted by flutterby
quote:
Originally posted by Peg
Perhaps as Hott says it is due to the constant negative self talk and when we re-program those thoughts, we can feel better. But is that ignoring the cause? Perhaps not, maybe that's what we need to do to change those negative beliefs we created based on messages we received as children combined with our particular personalities and our interpretation of the world around us.
Peg, I've just finished reading a book with an intriguing title - 'The Power of Negative Thinking' by Tony Humphreys, a clinical psychologist and a deeply compassionate man. The main thrust of the book, as I understand it, is that no amount of reprogramming our thoughts will really work until we heal the emotional wounds which led to our 'negative thinking' (which the author re-names 'protective thinking'). He assures us that this 'protective thinking' is absolutely necessary until we are able to heal those wounds and feel 'safe' enough to dispense with our negative/protective thinking.
Makes sense to me!
BTW, there is a chapter on how illnesses and stress symptoms can be 'protective', which I think ties in with Dr Sarno's work!
This book sounds very interesting. It addresses the differences between our THOUGHTS and our EMOTIONS. Our thoughts and emotions don't necessarily jive with each other, and sometimes we use one to mask the other one. For me personally, I had to FEEL that I wasn't physically broken in order to believe it, but it did help me tremendously to actively think it first. |
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Too much focus on pain holding me (and others) up?
