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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
 Posted - 05/01/2009 : 18:13:48
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Hey everyone:
I just started reading the book The Relaxation Response by Dr. Herbert Benson. As I read that along with some other materials on the stress response and the fight or flight response to stress, I'm becoming more convince of it's role in the TMS process.
Even in the intro of the book Dr. Benson makes some really good points how modern medicine is "given to you" or "done to you" with no active participation of the patient in the process.
It's that "fix me quick" or "magic pill" desire. Yes, medicine truly has it's place. Nothing works better than emergency surgery when trauma breaks our bodies and creates life threatening injuries.
But is that type of "do to the patient" medicine required or appropriate when pain symptoms show up without any trauma? I don't think so.
Back to the relaxation/stress topic... In my opinion, TMS is a name that we give to spending way too much time in the fight or flight mode and not enough time in relaxation mode.
Emotional stress, stress of childhood abuse, job stress, road rage, kids demanding attention and no time for yourself, a nagging spouse (male or femail) - all infuriating to the inner child. But all stress none the less.
Dr Mark Hyman talks about the physiologic changes to our body as a result of this stress. He also talks about the physical changes we can create by deep breathing and forcing this relaxation response.
Way interesting....
As I think back - I realize that for YEARS - I did nothing to counter this stress response. I'd go from traffic into frustrating work environment, back into traffic, home to a young child, financial demands, family issues, watching news (further stress) to violent TV before bed - only to do it again and again. I've gone YEARS without taking deep soothing breaths of air.
I've gone years without truly calming my mind. Sure, I rested physically with sleep or vegging out watching TV. But I don't think I knew how (maybe I still don't know how) to truly relax.
It's no wonder my body was screaming at me.
Anytime I feel my back acting up - I now make sure to get into deep breathing.
Does anyone else have any thoughts or experience with either this book "The Relaxation Response", the fight or flight response or relaxation methods? Do you truly find relief from your pain by employing a forced relaxation? (breathing deep, meditation, prayer, yoga, etc.)
I'm very curious about this topic now...
Thoughts?
Dan |
Edited by - Webdan65 on 05/02/2009 19:43:42 |
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pandamonium
United Kingdom
202 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2009 : 01:24:25
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Hi Dan,
it's a very interesting subject, and I can identify with a lot of what you say including the line "It's no wonder my body was screaming at me."
Dr Schubiner is a great advocate of Mindfulness Meditation and uses it in his TMS programme I believe. I've been doing the Presence Process which also involves meditation. During meditation I talk to my inner child, and also allow myself to feel any physical or emotional pain, unchecked. It's good stuff.
I don't have any experience with Dr Benson's book though.
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A beginner's guide to psychology: If it's not your mum's fault.... it's your dad's... |
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cfhunter
119 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2009 : 19:23:01
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My mom had this book when I was growing up....I always wondered what it was and never really thought about it until....I discovered TMS as the reason for almost every physical ailment I have had in the past 12-15 years..
So YES...I am definitely in tune with this and surprisingly everything you say in the following:
As I think back - I realize that for YEARS - I did nothing to counter this stress response. I'd go from traffic into frustrating work environment, back into traffic, home to a young child, financial demands, family issues, watching news (further stress) to violent TV before bed - only to do it again and again. I've gone YEARS without taking deep soothing breaths of air.
I've gone years without truly calming my mind. Sure, I rested physically with sleep or vegging out watching TV. But I don't think I knew how (maybe I still don't know how) to truly relax.
It's no wonder my body was screaming at me.
I have said in so many words....especially when I was living in a high stress body for almost 12 years of my life with NO relaxation at all. One of my biggest complaints when I started realizing this was something going on with my mind was that I was having such bad fight or flight reactions I don't know if I slept for a full year. I called them something like hyper alertness-my body jumped at the slightest noise. Even a sigh could cause my whole body to tense up as if I had been jumped out at by someone who screamed BOO!.
Thankfully...I have gotten most of my symptoms under control for today...for now. My arm is the only thing (and my legitimately fractured foot) causing me trouble and the funny thing is...one night I was sitting in bed reading..I look over at my arm that has been ravaged with tennis and golfers elbow for a year (I don't DO either one!) and I said "hmm. My arm didn't hurt today." I had JUST realized that...well the minute I said it in my head...it started back! As if my mind was like "OOOOhhh reeeeallly? Let me show YOU!"
Anyway..I do a great amount of reading, a good amount of relaxing and can fall asleep at the drop of a dime using my breathing techniques (been good on this for a couple years), and I listen to yoga music to stretch and meditate to and definitely they ALL help. My body says...thank you.
Herbert Benson is a pretty darn smart guy and a lot of authors I read refer to his method. |
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Dor
67 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2009 : 04:23:15
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Definitely think that deep relaxation is vital to ones well being. Most of the great pyschological and spiritual leaders recommend it - Deepak Chopra, Dr. Claire Weeks, Dr. David Burns, just to mention a few. And, if you really think about Sarno isn't that what he is saying - relax with the pain, don't worry about it, etc.? Learning to relax though helps the body to heal, most especially from that flight or fight response which I believe is responsible for much physical and emotional pain. Sarno bases much of his theory on rage, but even there if we are running from rage that certainly sets up the flight or fight response.
The best form of relaxation is learning to breathe. You can find many of those breathing exercises on the internet. It is the basis of "natural childbirth" and if breath can work for that kind of pain it can certainly work for other pains. Learning to breath correctly and taking time each day to do it relaxes the body and the mind.
Another person to look up is belleruthnaparstek.com. She has wonderful CD's for relaxation. All you have to do is put in the CD, listen, and you will find yourself relaxing.
Yes, I think it is a very important aspect to everything that ails us and I think you are wise to continue to explore it.
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2009 : 12:53:07
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Dr. Benson's work is now integrated into most all "recovery" books dealing with stress/anxiety disorders, and most psychologists who specialize in cognitive/behavioral training integrate the teaching of breath work in their practices, as well as a "getting acquainted" with symptoms of stress. Dr. Andrew Weil has a whole CD/workbook set on mindbody medicine, and one CD is devoted to different breath techniques.
Dor, what Dr. Sarno says is in direct contradiction to the teachings of Dr. Benson. To wit: there is a section of HBP in which he discusses and dismisses biofeedback and related techniques aimed at promoting relaxation. His claim is that even if the body learns to relax through breathing, tension-release or whatever method employed, the brain still keeps the tactic of pain and distraction going until it is directly confronted and dealt with by consciously delving into what could be hiding in the unconscious.
Benson used biofeedback devices to measure his outcomes. They are scientifically provable and reproducible, which puts his work on a plane that Dr. Sarno's cannot yet claim. This is why it is so important to look outside of Sarno's treatment plan and integrate other approaches when struggling. Schubiner's use of meditation is just one example of how the newer breed of treatment professionals is attempting to expose its patients to alternatives to the rigid criteria of endlessly mining the unconscious for wayward, unprocessed emotions in Sarno's plan.
Imagine for a moment that reading Sarno's books brings a person to see Dr. Schubiner. The reader, unable to simply repudiate and banish the pain by reading, is then introduced to a whole different approach, employing some techniques that Dr. Sarno has poo-pooed in the book. There is a new conflict introduced for the patient, which is a barrier to his full understanding and an impediment to cure.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
Edited by - Hillbilly on 05/03/2009 18:41:40 |
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cfhunter
119 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2009 : 18:31:27
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ahhh belleruth....she is like valium in a cd player.
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mseymour88
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 09:37:23
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Hi Hillbilly
I have been working with Sarno since Dec. and have noticed that he is incorporating more of the relaxation/meditation stuff into his worksheets and meetings.
I can tell by listening to some of the older alumni, as compared to the newer.
The way I percieve it is sort of like the way he says that doing physical exercises for general health is great, but we shouln't tell our brains that this specific exercise is to eleviate this pain symptom I am having. I believe he feels the meditation/ relaxation stuff is good approached for overall health and helps with TMS. Also on my worksheet, he suggests breathing meditation just prior to speaking with your inner child.
His work has transformed over the years, remember he used to prescribe physical therapy and he has changed Tension Myositis to Tension Myonural( I know I spelt both those wrong)
I don/t see a conflict, for myself, I incorporate all of it and I see progress.
Let me know what you think Hope this helps someone
Love and Peace
Michaelquote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Dr. Benson's work is now integrated into most all "recovery" books dealing with stress/anxiety disorders, and most psychologists who specialize in cognitive/behavioral training integrate the teaching of breath work in their practices, as well as a "getting acquainted" with symptoms of stress. Dr. Andrew Weil has a whole CD/workbook set on mindbody medicine, and one CD is devoted to different breath techniques.
Dor, what Dr. Sarno says is in direct contradiction to the teachings of Dr. Benson. To wit: there is a section of HBP in which he discusses and dismisses biofeedback and related techniques aimed at promoting relaxation. His claim is that even if the body learns to relax through breathing, tension-release or whatever method employed, the brain still keeps the tactic of pain and distraction going until it is directly confronted and dealt with by consciously delving into what could be hiding in the unconscious.
Benson used biofeedback devices to measure his outcomes. They are scientifically provable and reproducible, which puts his work on a plane that Dr. Sarno's cannot yet claim. This is why it is so important to look outside of Sarno's treatment plan and integrate other approaches when struggling. Schubiner's use of meditation is just one example of how the newer breed of treatment professionals is attempting to expose its patients to alternatives to the rigid criteria of endlessly mining the unconscious for wayward, unprocessed emotions in Sarno's plan.
Imagine for a moment that reading Sarno's books brings a person to see Dr. Schubiner. The reader, unable to simply repudiate and banish the pain by reading, is then introduced to a whole different approach, employing some techniques that Dr. Sarno has poo-pooed in the book. There is a new conflict introduced for the patient, which is a barrier to his full understanding and an impediment to cure.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 11:40:43
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Hey, Mike,
What book is Dr. Sarno now recommending his patients read and reread and reread? I am very happy to hear his treatment plan has evolved, but the book referenced in the title of this thread was first published in 1975, which means it predates Sarno's first book by seven years. There is no reference to this book in the bibliography of MOBP, even though it was met with raves and seen as groundbreaking in the field of psychology. There was finally something that could be measured, calculated, repeated.
Although some changes have been made to Dr. Benson's work in the recent years, the basic science is the same, and it can be taught to and mastered by anyone with the inclination to learn it. What made this work meaningful to me was that it was very much in line with the scientific explanation of the affect on the nervous system caused by emotional alarm given by Claire Weekes. The absence of ethereal ideas such as inner child dialogue were especially pleasing.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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mseymour88
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 12:11:53
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Hi Hillbilly
I think you may have taken my reply out of context.
I wasn't in anyway trying to say one book or idea or approach was better then the other.
I was just sharing my experience. I am definatly open to whatever works. I need all the help I can get.
I wish you a pain free day.
Mike quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Hey, Mike,
What book is Dr. Sarno now recommending his patients read and reread and reread? I am very happy to hear his treatment plan has evolved, but the book referenced in the title of this thread was first published in 1975, which means it predates Sarno's first book by seven years. There is no reference to this book in the bibliography of MOBP, even though it was met with raves and seen as groundbreaking in the field of psychology. There was finally something that could be measured, calculated, repeated.
Although some changes have been made to Dr. Benson's work in the recent years, the basic science is the same, and it can be taught to and mastered by anyone with the inclination to learn it. What made this work meaningful to me was that it was very much in line with the scientific explanation of the affect on the nervous system caused by emotional alarm given by Claire Weekes. The absence of ethereal ideas such as inner child dialogue were especially pleasing.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 12:43:22
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Thanks, Mike,
I have been completely and utterly pain free for a very long time now. I hope you get there as well. One of the reasons I come back here is because I see so many pigeon-holed in their thinking that they are defying the edicts of Sarno and impeding their progress if they get a massage, take a yoga class or stretch twice a day or whatever. In fact all that is required for most is to move freely, learn to accept symptoms as "nervous" in origin and to prove their fears wrong by doing strenuous things again, and to learn how to relax at work and in social situations. It takes a while, but what you learn can be reused if you find yourself going down the slippery slope of worry and obsession in the future.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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Capn Spanky
112 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 14:10:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
One of the reasons I come back here is because I see so many pigeon-holed in their thinking that they are defying the edicts of Sarno and impeding their progress if they get a massage, take a yoga class or stretch twice a day or whatever.
I didn't notice anyone in this thread worrying or complaining that they were intimidated about trying new things because of Dr Sarno. In fact, most of the people around here are very open minded. I really don't understand you taking this as another opportunity to bash Dr Sarno.
Don't get me wrong. I have issues with a few of the things Sarno believes. But I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. And I certainly don't think he's some kind of unscientific hack, which is what you seem to imply. IMO, this is more harmful than helpful to folks who may be struggling.
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cfhunter
119 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 18:28:09
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I have found that when I do the things that encourage free thinking nad free flowing thoughts (yoga, meditate, listen to soft music etc) my "harmful" thoughts come to the surface more readily...and give me a chance to accept them and deal with them. Certainly THAT can't be wrong...right? Perhaps that is why people find so much comfort and relief in these simple things...that they can easier face their "painful" fears and thoughts.
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 19:13:21
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Right you are cf! When things are going fine and suddenly a troublesome thought pops in, it only becomes a problem if we dwell on it.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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Sky
USA
96 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2009 : 22:37:08
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I attended Benson's Mindbody Conference at Harvard this past November or Decemer and it was excellent - right in line with Sarno's ideas. If they offer it next year, you guys would really enjoy and appreciate it.
He's just like Sarno - same age, friendly and charismatic, and by chance came upon the same type of ideas and was widely ridiculed for findings that went against much of the Western medical world.
Some of you may be familiar with Byron Katie, as well. I noticed today as I walked through a park and continually asked myself if I could KNOW the thoughts passing through my head were true, that I had naturally begun taking long, slow, deep breaths, which usually seems to be described as the healthiest tempo for breathing. |
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RageSootheRatio
Canada
430 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 06:37:50
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I've also gone for years, it seems, unable to relax: go to bed stressed; wake up stressed and hyperaroused. This is despite Belleruth Naparstek and other "relaxing" audio, various forms of meditation, lots of Jon Kabat Zinn "mindfulness meditation", relaxation exercises, progressive relaxation, autogenic training, daily exercise, less stressful lifestyle, etc etc etc. All of these helped to a certain extent, but certainly not "enough" !! (In fact, just "trying" to relax" makes me feel pressured! and can bring on a stress response!)
Lately I have been having much more success with Qigong, (specific DVDs by the husband and wife team, Daisy Lee and Francesco Garripoli.) I think it is the very slow movement combined with the movement and visualization of energy which helps.
Also, in terms of "deep breathing" I have found the Buteyko breathing approach *MUCH more relaxing* than "deep breathing" per se, which never worked for me.
Despite my inability to relax, I have been very successful in using Dr Sarno's approach with my "sinus headaches" (they were PURE TMS! and I had been taking daily meds for them for YEARS!) and am now trying to work on my sleep/fatigue issues. I do think it has a LOT to do with my chronic hyperarousal and "fight or flight" reactions (I think all PTSD-related), so am very much appreciating this discussion.
BTW, DAN, you asked whether relaxation helped w/ the pain: I would say no, all my "relaxation exercises" never really helped during an acute pain situation. What helped me was 'thinking psychological' a la Sarno and that aborted more headaches than anything else I ever tried (including special meditations for headaches, breathing techniques, stretching, etc.) |
Edited by - RageSootheRatio on 05/05/2009 06:40:27 |
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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 07:49:04
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Thanks Rage...
I appreciate your feedback. For me - I haven't tried the deep breathing during an acute episode. Luckily I haven't had a REALLY bad acute episode in about 6 months.
It is amazing how this bugger moves. My back was a bit tense after a stressful weekend with Dad. 24 hours ago my shoulder starts to hurt. My mind immediately focuses on that - and it took a couple hours for me to realize that my back wasn't bugging me anymore. Go figure...
I'll have to look into Buteyko and Qigong. Sounds like interesting stuff. |
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TotalStrangerFigure
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 14:12:31
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RSR -
So glad to hear that I'm not the only one who does not respond well to breathing exercises. I, too, feel pressured to get a positive response and, instead, end up with shallow breathing and heart palpitations!
I looked up the Buteyko method and was surprised that it seems to be about shallow breathing techniques. It also appears to be aimed at asthmatics. You have found this helpful? Did you order the DVD? |
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RageSootheRatio
Canada
430 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 15:35:49
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Buteyko is something I did before I discovered Dr Sarno's work. It is not really about *shallow* breathing so much as it is about *reduced* breathing, and proper *oxygenation* of the blood/body, as opposed to "chronic hyperventilation" (which a lot of deep breathing exacerbates, actually.) I don't recall if the DVD was available then, but I took the course with a Buteyko teacher. My goal was to get off my daily "sinus headache" meds, but I didn't progress far enough along with Buteyko to get there over the months I practiced (maybe I reduced the meds; I can't actually recall, it being a couple of years ago, now). Dr Sarno's work has been my big "salvation" !!
I DID find the Buteyko helpful in general, though. I will still often practice my Buteyko breathing informally, especially if I awaken during the night, as it is quite relaxing, and I definitely FEEL that my body is more oxygenated and relaxed, when I do it.
While we're talking about breathing exercises, the only other one I've used which had really noticeable effects for me was the "alternate nostril" yoga breathing .. but it was almost TOO much, sometimes ! (It didn't feel good/right somehow... hard to explain.) In general, none of the breathing ("square breathing," "deep breathing," "just notice your breathing" etc etc etc) has been very helpful to my sinus headaches or my difficulties in being able to relax (other than the Buteyko method.)
Definitely the qigong I'm doing which integrates breathing and slow movements and visualization has been the most helpful in my being able to trigger an actual "relaxation response" (course, it could be that it is just the right timing for where I'm at, these days.) I think maybe the problem has been that my hyperarousal has just been very extreme, so what would generally work for others, just hasn't worked for me. |
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cfhunter
119 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2009 : 17:59:10
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Jon Kabat Zinn, Herbert Benson, Byron Katie, Louise Hays, etc etc....
It is amazing the things we ALL have in common in the efforts we have made to "fix" our bodies! I bet if we started a list of "What have we read, what exercises have we tried, what alternative treatments have we tried, what DVD's have we bought etc." it would be SO similar to our list of "ailments".
makes me feel better in a twisted weird "misery loves company sort of way". |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2010 : 20:09:16
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Hi, I heard Dr. Benson on Diane Rehm's program last week and wanted to post here to share with the Forum. I haven't read his book but tried to call the show as I really wanted to ask him about Sarno and if they were influencing each other as his ideas are wonderfully simple, similar, and scientifically based (good for the naysayers).
Here is a link to the hour program. It's really a great interview.
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-08-24/dr-herbert-benson-relaxation-revolution
Click "Listen" at the top left of page, above the photo.
>|< Penny
"Feeling will get you closer to the truth of who you are than thinking."
~ Eckhart Tolle
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2010 : 20:34:04
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| "The Relaxation Response" is probably one of the earliest books on the subject. I don't know how many years ago I read it. Claire Weeks stuff, though even older, is very good too. I read a lot of this stuff, eg Jon Kabbat-Zinn, other books on mindfulness meditation...I'm currently reading "The Happiness Trap," which is excellent too. It basically says, you can't control your thoughts or feelings and so don't even bother. In fact, trying to control these things merely insures they persist. Better to notice them, accept them, defuse them, make room for them, and then take action according to your values. This is it in a nutshell. It's based on ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy), which is sort of a couple of other therapies, eg Dialectic Therapy, but not quite. |
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The Relaxation Response - Book
