| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
 Posted - 02/12/2009 : 18:37:47
|
Chronic physical pain is one of the harshest teachers you can have. "Resistance is futile" is it's teaching.
Nothing could be more normal than an unwillingness to suffer. Yet if you can let go of that unwillingness, and instead allow the pain to be there, you may notice a subltle inner separation from the pain, a space between you and the pain, as it were. This means to suffer consciously, willingly. When you suffer consciously, physical pain can quickly burn up the ego in you, since ego consists largely of resistance.
-Eckhart Tolle
(edit, s/b harshest not hardest in first sentence) |
Edited by - skizzik on 02/15/2009 13:25:26 |
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 18:38:49
|
| Do you feel he means this is the path to healing? |
 |
|
|
mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 19:01:43
|
Hi skizzik, hope you are well.
The way I read it is that he says you shouldn't fight the pain, rather just accept it. Human instinct is to fight the pain and he says that you should willingly let the pain exist . Fighting it will lead to more inner conflict (the ego vs the pain)
The healing probably means that there is a shift in your perception of the pain and a better ability to cope. This may then lead to physical healing coz of the change in the mindset.
Hope this helps.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
|
|
|
Dagnabit
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 21:38:56
|
| He means that resisting will add a layer of psychological pain (e.g. hopelessness, anger, etc) on top of the physical pain. His message is not to make an egoic identity for yourself in the pain or illness. Don't see yourself as a "TMS sufferer", instead see yourself as someone who is dealing with TMS. |
|
|
|
Bobbypols
Canada
46 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2009 : 21:45:53
|
He is basically restating Jon Kabit-Zinn, and stress reduction techniques. By fighting pain, you are in fact creating tension and furthering pain. Tolle is a more spirital stance on it.
For Tolle, everything is about being the watcher, and watching pain but not identifying with it. He is essentially a Buddhist. |
|
|
|
JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 05:52:27
|
| I think Sarno's advice is much more practical than Tolle. |
|
|
|
HellNY
130 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 08:25:49
|
Skizzik and all -
Tolle restates what Buddhists state and it is also correct in my opinion. Like mythology, its the same story retold with new characters (this time Tolle). But he is right, the buddhists are right.
Skizzik, that quote essentially captures how I have mostly transcended my pain problem. Unlike other success stories, I have not become "pain free" (whatever that means). Instead, the pain I have isnt really like "pain" anymore, its sort of "oh that background thing, whatever" it and truly, honestly doesnt bother me. Its because I no longer fight it or take it seriously. And it sort fo fades. Bear in mind this is now about 1 year or so. Who knows what will happen in the next 5? I would say Im "optimistic" about my pain but that very statement implies a "hope" which springs form the ego. Im not "optimistic," I just dont care. Thats better than optimism because it means the whole thing is no longer "a problem."
|
|
|
|
pandamonium
United Kingdom
202 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 09:32:29
|
Michael Brown in his book The Presence Process also says you should sit and actually FEEL your pain rather than fight it. I must admit to finding this quite difficult to do as I naturally fight and resist my pain but if you can bear to sit quietly, fully feel it, and accept it, it does start to diminish and I believe on a subconcious level it takes away the power that TMS has over you.
My therapist also recommends acceptance rather than fighting it.
For those who read Tolle's book but aren't sure how to apply some of it, The Presence Process is a complimentary book which will show you how and I would recommend it highly. |
|
|
|
winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 11:07:12
|
Hi Skiz,
Isn't Tolle wonderful? This is the key, acceptance is the key. But I think with TMS it's helpful to apply Sarno's ideas to what Tolle doesn't say in this passage: The chronic physical pain is from emotions, emotional tension from conflict, anger, and of course, the list goes on...
So in the case of chronic physical pain, (the variety that's caused by emotions that Sarno and we TMSers talk about) I would say that step one is accepting the physical pain, as Tolle says.
Step two is to realize that the physical pain is caused by emotions and so to then shift your consciousness to focus not on the physical symptoms, but instead to look at the emotions you are experiencing either in the moment, or those emotions that are stored from the past. Tolle would call this emotional conglomeration "the pain body." So in short, look at your "pain body."
Step three would be to then apply the Tolle concepts or Buddhist concepts to your work with the pain body. Accept the emotions, accept the emotional pain, learn to live with the feelings, "watch the feelings," and NOT IDENTIFY with the feelings. SEE that they are there, acknowledge them, feel them and eventually, learn to tolerate them.
The goal is to reach a point in which the emotions can come into your awareness and you can see them, feel them in your body, and you can allow them to be there, even if they are uncomfortable (and remember, they can be overwhelming happy and joyful, too). Then you've accomplished the oneness or presence that Tolle suggests. |
|
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2009 : 17:06:22
|
| hey, thanx for the replies guys! I'm gonna respond soon. |
|
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 15:14:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by mala
The way I read it is that he says you shouldn't fight the pain, rather just accept it. Human instinct is to fight the pain and he says that you should willingly let the pain exist . Fighting it will lead to more inner conflict (the ego vs the pain)
The healing probably means that there is a shift in your perception of the pain and a better ability to cope. This may then lead to physical healing coz of the change in the mindset.
This was my first thought. I have been back to Tolle recently, and finding all kinds of nuggets like this. As if he's been writing for the board.
Interestingly mala, your response to my "will I be in pain in Disney in march?" post, you said that was just my ego talking and to just be, whatever it is, it is or something like that. I was like "what"? But after coming back to Tolle, and reading all about the "ego" and "painbodies" I'm assuming this is what your were referring to, no? Seems like good stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnabit
He means that resisting will add a layer of psychological pain (e.g. hopelessness, anger, etc) on top of the physical pain. His message is not to make an egoic identity for yourself in the pain or illness. Don't see yourself as a "TMS sufferer", instead see yourself as someone who is dealing with TMS.
 agree. Ultimately, seeing yourself as "someone dealing w/ TMS" will have to be "let go" of too? Or am I overthinking?
quote:
Originally posted by Bobbypols
He is basically restating Jon Kabit-Zinn, and stress reduction techniques. By fighting pain, you are in fact creating tension and furthering pain. Tolle is a more spirital stance on it.
For Tolle, everything is about being the watcher, and watching pain but not identifying with it. He is essentially a Buddhist.
Kabit-Zinn looks interesting, but I saw the "mindfulness meditation" and that seemed to put me back in the thought pattern that I should be meditating my way out of tms, ala Monte, or Schubiner somewhat. I just can't go wasting my time meditating anymore. Or doing a big journaling program. I've given both overhuman efforts and it seems like fighting.
I agree about the watcher totally. And this relaxes me because he's not telling me to meditate, or journal, but rather awareness. We all have time to be aware.
If thats spiritual, then cool. I always confused "spiritual" w/ being a jesus freak. And I speak from experience as my mom has gone from strict catholic, to born again, to strict catholic all during my youth. I'm sick to death of it, it's only made her life a mess, as well as my youth .. Tolle quotes jesus like crazy, but as a spiritually enlightened person, not the misinterpreted literal "son of God" thats taught. I feel more at peace seeing that take on it. In fact, it's kind of made me at ease w/ hearing Jesus quotes now, like "I am the way"...etc When he says "I am", it means us. It means we have peace when we see ourselves as "I am". Theres the peace. Look inside, as opposed to follow Jesus around like those in Forrest Gump....er, where was I? I'm babbling....I'm liking this Buddhist stuff though Maybe Jesus was a Buddhist?
quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
I think Sarno's advice is much more practical than Tolle.
Thats what got me on board 5-6 years ago. An MD that made psychological factors believable to me in a practical way.
However, when I first healed, I had no intention of being healed. I thought I was doomed w/ a bad back for life, only wanted to ease the pain a bit. When I found Sarno, and read the magic words, pages 1-52 in HBP, I immediately felt mental relief. I could feel the spinning doom and gloom thoughts slow down, and I could breathe. I never really spent time reading what I thought was psycho babble in the other chapter. And I healed w/in a few months. Not even realizing it.
Sarno stopped the fear, the fight. I did'nt shout at my pain like he suggested, I just kept reading that you could'nt hurt yourself, and how others recovered. Still thinking it was too fancy, but damn, it happened. I simply felt mental relief every time I read him "oh, herniated discs are no big deal" I thought. Then one day I turned to my wife and said "My back doesn't bother me anymore"......She was like..."thats nice dear"... Whatever, I knew what had happened.
Anyways, this time around, after the relapse, the idea of the egoic painbody is really making sense to me. It is giving me the kind of mental relief I had before. Well, kind of. But it makes sense that something else is going on here, that my ego became attatched to the idea of having a bad back, but then perhaps, becoming a hero out of it by becoming the purist Sarnoist and proving to the world you can heal.
But then the ego wants more pain, wants the story as big as it can get. But per Tolle, the ego can't quit. It can't be satisfied. Ever. If this has become my ego, then I will continue in pain as it needs the biggest story ever, and does'nt know to stop. It is a life form of itself that does'nt understand the damage going on to the host. Which answers the question "why would my mind do this to me"?
So how to get out of it? Like Bobby says, become the watcher. It seperates you from your mind, and eventually burns out the ego.
But the ego is clever. Not intelligent, theres a difference. Read Tolle's take on that, impressive. Geez, where was I
Hell, panda, Winny, I'm gonna respond to you guys later, the family is driving me crazy now.....ugh,,,,serenity now!!!
Oh wait, watch, no feel, um......what am I feeling right now er...punch a pillow ,,,no PRIMAL SCREAM!!!...Ok honey, I'll be right there!...hold on I'll read you that book in a minute, wha? Yes I'll play wii with you as soon as I read that book to your sister, huh? You dont want that book now? You wanna play on NICKjr???
BE THE WATCHER, BE THE WATCHER!!!!ARGGH CANT STAND UP STRAIGHT.................................AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
ok, see ya guys in a bit. |
|
|
|
winnieboo
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2009 : 20:16:58
|
Hi Skiz,
Yes, according to Tolle, peace results from finding the God, the presence, that we all have within us. And he explains that we will be able to see that, when we drop the ego and essentially, let it die. We can either drop the negative voice like "a hot coal," or we can work to let it drop gradually. For many it's not that easy, we're connected to the ego, the pain body, we identify with its guilt trip, its negative voice, its clever temptations to accept all (or more than enough) responsibility for any and all things we find not up to par in life. And this is the challenge: to disidentify with that voice. Interestingly, I have been re-reading Tolle myself over the past weeks, along with The Course in Miracles, and I have to say that Tolle re-states a lot of what's in the Course and makes it more accessible. But essentially the ideas are the same. That we have some control over our destiny here on earth. We can choose a "heaven" or we can choose hell, depending on our willingness and ability to disengage from that nasty inner voice, which is the ego, tormenting us and keeping us in a circular whirlwind of either physical and/or mental pain. |
|
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2009 : 06:24:29
|
ok, where was I?
I was thinking that winnie, get to ya in a sec.
quote:
Originally posted by pandamonium
For those who read Tolle's book but aren't sure how to apply some of it, The Presence Process is a complimentary book which will show you how and I would recommend it highly.
I recall checking out his site b4 thru a reccomendation here, may have been you. But, theres that process problem I have.
Thru my own experience, 2yrs worth, after throwing myself into the essay writing from Sarno, the Listing from Sensei Adam Rostocki, the Meditating away chatter from Monte, the intensive writing from Brady and Schubiner and the Pathway, I think I'm done, I can't do anymore processes.
(edit: want to add that Monte was convincing to me that this all has to do more w/ chronic thought patterns then searching the past, also, Rostocki was crucial in saving me from surgery last january when I emailed him like crazy and he answered promptly)
I hit rock bottom when I was journaling at the movies w/ my wife and kids. My wife will never forgive me for that .
W/ Tolle, there is no process per say, that any "hope" you have of any pain going away in the future, or "searching" for that "way" is a look for salvation in the future. And the ego grasps on to that search, and the search will never be good enough. He lets you know that peace is now, not there, not before, but right now. And there will always be right now.
I get relief knowing that. Or feeling that.
Thinking that I have to journal today, do 10 affirmations, meditate, puts that "calendar phenomenon" on it and is doomed IMHO. For me anyways.
Ok, wife buggin again, back soon
|
Edited by - skizzik on 02/15/2009 13:30:11 |
|
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2009 : 13:24:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by HellNY
he is right, the buddhists are right.
 your proof is the pudding! (did that make sense?)
quote:
Originally posted by HellNY
Skizzik, that quote essentially captures how I have mostly transcended my pain problem. Unlike other success stories, I have not become "pain free" (whatever that means). Instead, the pain I have isnt really like "pain" anymore, its sort of "oh that background thing, whatever" it and truly, honestly doesnt bother me. Its because I no longer fight it or take it seriously. And it sort fo fades. Bear in mind this is now about 1 year or so. Who knows what will happen in the next 5? I would say Im "optimistic" about my pain but that very statement implies a "hope" which springs form the ego. Im not "optimistic," I just dont care. Thats better than optimism because it means the whole thing is no longer "a problem."
Cant really add anything here. Except......why did'nt you tell me to just read Tolle?
I recall your message to me of how I post here and it fuels "it", but I could never put a name on "it".
I could call it TMS, AOS, PIPS, MBS, but something else was going on here. It has to do w/ the whole identity of it all. Why does posting here perpetuate it for me and not others?
ahhhhhhh....."ego"......This label seems to be working for me. Working in the sense that finally something makes sense in my situation. I've been thinking, wait...feeling what my situation is and w/ a little more thought...er feeling I'll post what I feel is my unique situation (we're all here w/ unique situations of course) and then I'm sure a dozen people will think "Duh...coulda told you that skiz"..
quote:
Originally posted by winnieboo
For many it's not that easy, we're connected to the ego, the pain body, we identify with its guilt trip, its negative voice, its clever temptations to accept all (or more than enough) responsibility for any and all things we find not up to par in life. And this is the challenge: to disidentify with that voice.
What I like is that I don't have to journal or meditate it away, rather, just watch it (ego) work and then the disidentifying happens all by itself.
He says if you think that finding presence is something you will achieve in the future, then you are in the clever trap of the ego. Peace is found now, not then, and not reminiscing about the peace you had.
quote:
Originally posted by winnieboo
Interestingly, I have been re-reading Tolle myself over the past weeks
cool, I caught you at the right time.
I was into the "power of now" 7-8 mos ago, but thought it corny after 3/4's the way thru. I was still held up in the so called practical Sarno advice.
Tolle is in tune w/ chronic pain being a form of "painbody", and at the time I just was'nt ready. Essentially, it's everything HellNY and Hillbilly have discovered for themselves and have been telling me, but this is a spiritual way to describe to me what was happening to me scientifically....(What did I just say??)
I mean,,I got what they were telling me, but once you go scientific, and start researching the "amygdila", "prefrontal cortex", sympathetic response, etc.. the ego (my ego) will again taste blood and attatch itself to that and continue the unending search for more scientific proof so that the "story", my story can be good, great, amazing! Then I can be a hero here, and tell my story to the world.
I think John Accardi wrote he had that "this is it" feeling like 10 times this past year while trying to recover....well....me too. Probably a hundred times. 2 years, and trying everything tells me that there is no great story. There is no hero. Just peace w/ in me. And it's here if I want it.
I always wanted an explanation as to why I always feel I have to have this amazing success story, book, novel, movie, so then I can get on w/ my life. For the greater part of 2 years I've daydreamed how it was gonna go, and only increased in intensity w/ every tms related book I read.
With Tolle, with his words, I feel I don't owe him anything. Like I can just get on with life. Drop the whole pain thing. I mean everything. It appears to be one big egoic facade. I always envisioned being a tms spokesperson, spreading the word. Helping others. But maybe this is my unique trap. It will never be enough. I'm better off just seeing myself as someone who never dealt w/ back pain to begin with.
What if I never had back pain, or forgot I ever had it? What if I just threw the MRI's in the trash the next time I cleaned the basement. Afterall, there just there so I can prove to someone "hey, look at this pic, and I'm pain free". But it's been 2 years, and it makes sense that thats the grip that keeps it going.
What if I was never "skizzik"? Just me. Just forgive myself, and let go of this tms, aos, mbs, pips, painbody, (whatever the hell you want to call it) jet fuel.
quote:
Originally posted by winnieboo
Yes, according to Tolle, peace results from finding the God, the presence, that we all have within us. And he explains that we will be able to see that, when we drop the ego and essentially, let it die.
|
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Tolle quote:
