| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
myles
30 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2008 : 01:57:27
|
hey all,
What do you think of this theory?
I previously tried everything for my chronic all day long headaches, but the most success - by far - was from fasting. I just decided one desperate day that it felt slightly worse after eating (maybe the rush of blood to the stomach to aid digestion was enough to induce that). So I stopped for twelve days. During which my pain dropped and dropped and moved about a bit down into my neck (ha ha tms or what?).
My theory is that as I consciously believed fasting was a panacea (thanks to Shelton's books) from cataracts to cardiac problems and from cysts to cancer this left the subconcious little room for manoeuver on the symptom imperative side. Moreover, as my conscious mind was convinced not to stop until the pain had totally gone (again from Shelton's advice) the subconscious may have started to panic and make concessions.
Subconscious ego - "Sh*t, this guy's going to kill us all. Quick! Increase oxygen flow to the whole brain now!"
Subconscious id - "Give him some gout pain in his foot then."
Subconscious ego - "No damn it! If we don't stop all the psychogenic pain we're done for!"
Subconscious id - "But what about my overflowing reservoir of rage?"
Subconscious ego - "If you don't stop the pain, you and your precious reservoir won't even be here next month"
Subconscious id - "OK, OK already! Keep your shirt on!"
Subconscious ego - "Twa*t"
Subconscious id - "W*anker"
What do you think? Anyone ever tried fasting before? I think fasting's got a really strong legitimate physiological basis too, and although again it's a slightly physical focus, which Sarno mightn't like... this gives me the idea to try going somewhere secluded and do a bit of a mental fast too one day. No books, tv, music, people, do a bit of internalisation and a spring clean. Anyone tried that?
The panacea idea came from Shelton's work:
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyglibcat/020127shelton.III/020127.ch1.htm |
|
|
skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 07:27:48
|
This is where la kev might put in the word control. U can't control tms. It seems you're trying to trick yourself out of it.
I corresponded w/ him b4 He left, and he told me you couldn't trick tms either.
I asked him about his "final tms solution" post a while back which I thought was the genisis of his recovery but he said that was himself trying to trick himself out of tms. And it doesn't work.
But give it a shot? Your pants will feel better in the morning.lol |
 |
|
|
armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 10:49:37
|
No, you should not fast. This is just another in a long line of crap placebos. I don't know what the heck a panacea is in this technical sense, but fasting isn't a panacea in the semantic sense in that it doesn't fix anything. You need to discard all the do-nothing placebos. Furthermore, fasting isn't great for your body. A one-day fast probably won't hurt anything, but it really isn't a great idea -- it messes with your body and brain at a time when you really need them to function effectively.
As Dave so wisely just said in the recently-resurrected TMS theory thread, STOP OVERTHINKNG.
This is really a very simple (though not EASY) program. Stop believing your symptoms are physical, stop allowing the pain distraction to distract you from your emotions and your life, and get on with life.
Fasting helps you do exactly none of those things, so ditch it and start with the suggested work. Think psychological, journal if you need to, and get back to your normal life. It sounds as though you've been doing this and had some success so far. I'd stick with that if I were you.
--
What were you expecting? |
|
|
|
myles
30 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 16:32:02
|
Hi Armchair,
I'm all for:
taking on board Freud's framework
working on my emotions
alleviating my pressures and stressors
talking to my unconscious
challenging my conditioning about what my body is and isn't capable of
expressing my rage and giving it a safe outlet.
BUT
I think you're selling fasting short personally... or have you got some evidence as to why it's a 'crap placebo'? If not I think you/everyone would find the link interesting reading either way.
I also intend to have myofascial release treatment regularly to keep my muscles in tip-top condition. With the added knowledge that my spine is strong and not 'made of glass'... and I had only believed that due to the manifestations of my divided mind, the comprehension of which has meant I am banning my unconscious from continuing in that vein. |
|
|
|
armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 18:38:34
|
Sorry, I think myofascial release is also a total placebo and I absolutely would NOT recommend it to anyone attempting to recover from TMS. I quit mine about two weeks into TMS treatment and I've never been back. I don't need it. My body is strong and healthy and that means I don't need to pay $90 and lie on a table for an hour while someone messes with my muscles. I have better things to do with $90 and an hour. I've done lots of that (can't count the amount of money I spent on it but it's in the multiple thousands of dollars and multiple hundreds of hours over the three years that I was in pain) and it kept me out of acute pain for a while but it got me nowhere in the long run.
(If I ever was going to get something done that cost $90 an hour -- and yes, that's the going rate where I am -- I'd just go get a nice relaxing massage, rather than get 'released'. Massage is fun -- myofascial release isn't. :)
If you persist in the physical strategies, your unconscious (not conscious) mind will be far more reluctant to give up the ghost on causing you pain that you try to fix that way. Doesn't matter so much what you think consciously, the unconscious sees what you do.
I explained in my post why I think fasting is a bad idea. Fasting doesn't do any of the work. That is why it's a placebo. And it doesn't help keep you healthy in any other way (unlike sleep, regular exercise, healthy food, etc.) That's why it's crap. I'll grant non-crap status to myosfascial work -- at least it does something and arguably won't injure you if done by a competent professional -- but it's at best a crutch, and it's an expensive one.
It's not the TMS way or the highway (I'm actually far more flexible on this matter than this post suggests), but you're in the early stages of belief and you've still got hints of denial hanging around, especially with the whole myofascial thing. You're a practitioner, you're biased toward it, so it's understandable, but you need to let go of the idea that all the glorious things you've been taught about it are true.
--
What were you expecting? |
|
|
|
ChrisSC
25 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 19:14:01
|
quote:
"but the most success - by far - was from fasting. I just decided one desperate day that it felt slightly worse after eating"
This sounds more like a conditioned response than anything else. When I had chronic fatigue, my fatigue would start to go away as soon as I started eating dinner each (well before I actually could've gotten energy from the food). It was only because at that time of day I was conditioned to feel slightly better. The same was probably true for your headaches, except that for you your symptom got worse.
The idea that fasting would relieve symptoms is a bad idea mainly because it's just unhealthy. The concept is kind of in line with Fred Amir's punish-the-pain, except his punishments were not unhealthy like fasting. His idea of punishment was "if the pain doesn't let up, I'll clean the bathroom."
If the fasting works it's probably because you believe it will work (placebo). Even if threatening your subconscious with the risk of starvation if it doesn't let up works, what's really stopping it from starting up the pain again once you do resume eating. You can't fast forever.
As for myofascial release, is that the same thing as rolfing? I actually made my first rolfing appointment a few days before discovering TMS. It did nothing for my pain but I can honestly say that it did increase the chest expansion while breathing (it was visually very noticable in addition to feeling I was getting more air). I think you'd be okay to continue the sessions ONLY IF you acknowledge that it cannot cure you and that the real source of the chronic pain is not being addressed by the body work. Keeping your muscles in "tip-top condition" is fine and it certainly can't hurt you anywhere except your wallet, so that's your decision.
When it comes down to it, though, I agree with armchair. Especially so early in your TMS work you should focus more on the psychological. I would personally suggest holding off on any myofascial release on your own body until you have a firm understanding, both conscious and unconscious, that the pain has a psychological origin. Even if you consciously accept that the pain can't be relieved by physical means, unconsciously you might still hold onto the idea that it does. (I experienced this with my shoe orthotics... thought I'd just keep wearing them only because they were comfortable, then when I took them out and walked around I experienced more pain. Turns out I did think they were helping me on some level of thinking) |
Edited by - ChrisSC on 07/25/2008 19:18:11 |
|
|
|
iyusaf
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2008 : 11:35:48
|
Anything which serves as a DISTRACTION - hunger in this case - may result in a temporary reduction of symptoms. As a bit of a self proclaimed foodie and amateur chef, I can endure back pain longer than I can go without a good meal.
I highly recommend the mental fast or retreat. This is not a distraction, but gets to the core of TMS which is feelings. The key is to allow feelings to emerge during the retreat. This is not something to be taken lightly, so you may want to get some guidance from a psychologist.
|
Edited by - iyusaf on 07/26/2008 12:11:25 |
|
|
|
dewiniaeth
13 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 16:18:07
|
I don't dismiss fasting so easily. I had pretty significant back pain a few years ago and after fasting it went away and never came back. Yes, hunger serves as a distraction, but after a day or so, in my experience, the hunger goes away. One thing that fasting tends to do: it makes a person very sensitive/vulnerable to emotions that we usually have defenses against. A person who never cries might burst into tears after a few days on a fast. It makes us confront things that ordinarily we wouldn't, and in most cases, it helps me work through issues. So, maybe that's how the fast helped me -- it helped me work on those psychological issues, or at least acknowledge them, in a way that I couldn't when I was eating. Fasting is a wonderful experience and I recommend it to anyone who is healthy and able. My unprofessional opinion is that fasting is not unhealthy -- and, in fact, I've experienced many benefits from it.
So, in my opinion, with regard to TMS, fasting may be helpful, not necessarily because it addresses the physical, but it brings us right to the heart of what's going on emotionally. |
|
|
|
HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 13:52:03
|
quote:
Subconscious ego - "Sh*t, this guy's going to kill us all. Quick! Increase oxygen flow to the whole brain now!"
Subconscious id - "Give him some gout pain in his foot then."
Subconscious ego - "No damn it! If we don't stop all the psychogenic pain we're done for!"
Subconscious id - "But what about my overflowing reservoir of rage?"
Subconscious ego - "If you don't stop the pain, you and your precious reservoir won't even be here next month"
Subconscious id - "OK, OK already! Keep your shirt on!"
Subconscious ego - "Twa*t"
Subconscious id - "W*anker"
myles, that's so funny! Thanks for making me laugh on this rainy evening!
Hilary N |
|
|
|
ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 15:03:08
|
I have to respond to the anti-fasting comments above.
In addition to my strong support of Dr. Sarno's theory and treatment, I am also a strong advocate of pure water fasting, for the cure of almost anything from skin disorders to asthma to cardiovascular disease including hypertension (high blood pressure).
As Dr. Joel Fuhrman says in his great book: Fasting and Eating for Health: A Medical Doctor's Program for Conquering Disease, a book which I highly recommend, "Fasting is Nature's Restorer."
In that section, he says:quote:
The job of fasting is to supply the body with the ideal environment to accomplish its work of healing. During the period of a fast the blood pressure will drop, the level of retained metabolic wastes will fall, and the blood vessels will begin to soften and rid themselves of hard sclerotic plaque. In a short period of time the heart and brain, as well as other organs and muscles, will receive a more adequate blood supply and oxygenation. The tissues throughout the body's systems will begin to purify themselves and the rejuvenation process of the fast will have begun.
The goal of the body at all times is to keep the individual healthy. When the disease-causing stresses are removed, the natural healing and self-repairing powers of the body begin to work unhindered. Within a short period of time, allergic and mucus-filled individuals clear their nasal passages, asthmatics breathe easier, arthritis sufferers report their pain is resolving, and cardiac patients begin to have increased circulation to their hearts. Healing has begun.
Healing and rejuvenation occur because fasting is an opportunity for the human body to take a rest from all of the stressful elements of life, such as physical labor and emotional stress. It is also an opportunity for the internal organs and digestive system to take a physiological vacation.
I don't believe this to be at all in conflict with Dr. Sarno's teachings. And I have personally done several pure water fasts of from seven to fourteen days, and believe this to be a principal factor in my good health at age 70, where I take no medications, and exercise regularly, and still hang glide, bike ride, run, and hike regularly, with no aches and pains.
Just like Dr. Sarno's teachings, Dr. Fuhrman's well documented teachings are dismissed by that part of the mainstream medical community that is hooked on drugs and surgery. But just like Dr. Sarno's, they work!
Fasting, just like psychosomatic medicine, is an ancient and respected form of medicine that has been forgotten and overlooked by most of the modern medical community.
Dr. Fuhrman, was himself cured of a physical injury as an Olympic hopeful skater by fasting at Dr. Shelton's Health School in Texas, after a "physician angrily told him that if he did not have the surgery he would never walk again." Sound familiar? "At the end of the fast he was able to walk again. In a little over a year he placed third in the World Professional Figure Skating Championships."
http://www.amazon.com/dp/031218719X/
Best of health to all of you,
Ralph |
Edited by - ralphyde on 08/12/2008 15:51:12 |
|
|
|
armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 08:52:03
|
quote:
for the cure of almost anything from skin disorders to asthma to cardiovascular disease including hypertension (high blood pressure).
quote:
Healing and rejuvenation occur because fasting is an opportunity for the human body to take a rest from all of the stressful elements of life
Probably not coincidentally, these are a selection of disorders that are also frequently mentioned as, though perhaps not TMS, emotionally-exacerbated or -related, and fasting is usually accompanied by, as stated, a rest from other stressful elements of life.
I'm going to have to continue to go with "placebo" and "conditioning" here when the underlying problem is TMS or other mindbody disorders. The placebo effect is nice stuff and may be worth "calling" by using such techniques (as it's occasionally worth calling by doing massage and other physical treatments), but shouldn't be confused with a cure.
--
What were you expecting? |
|
|
|
JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 09:57:32
|
| ACL - how do you feel about phsyiological cleansing of organs through fasting mentioned in ralphyde's article ? Do you think this is mindbody related as well? |
|
|
|
armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2008 : 15:28:49
|
John, don't know. My understanding is this concept is pretty heavily disputed in the medical community and is currently mostly the preserve of alternative medicine.
If you had something physiological wrong with your liver or other digestive organs, maybe it would be worthwhile, I don't know. But when the underlying problem is not physiological in origin (TMS), I don't see how fasting can be anything other than a placebo.
--
What were you expecting? |
|
|
|
JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2008 : 19:57:39
|
| I agree. I do believe that one can afffect the mind through the body just as the opposite is true, but for someone initially trying to get past TMS I think you are right that it is correct to focus on the basics at first. However, I do think there are many more potential explanations than just writing it off as a placebo. |
|
|
|
stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2008 : 14:07:13
|
| I tried the 'Master Cleanse' last year as an 'experiment' I quit after about five days when i started feeling horrible and realized that it was shear lunacy. The 'Cleanse' proponents would have you believe that it was just my body releasing toxins and that had i continued i would have been rejuvenated and cured of everything under the sun. But, IMO, these proponents are delusional. If fasting worked in this case i suspect it is sue to the strong placebo effect that it would induce, and the fact that it surely redirected focus away from the headaches and toward the fast itself. Any serious action that challenges the idea of some existing physical problem is likely to be successful to some extent. |
|
|
|
ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 12:40:24
|
The "Master Cleanse" is technically not a fast. The real benefits of a pure water fast only come after two or three days of zero calories, when the liver starts making ketones to replace the glucose from food and body tissues. Then the real detoxification begins and can go on for many days. Ingesting calories can abort this process.
This is my opinion, from reading Dr. Fuhrman's book, Fasting and Eating for Health: A Medical Doctor's Program for Conquering Disease, and from having done several pure water fasts.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/031218719X/
Ralph |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Fasting as a cure
