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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
 Posted - 05/28/2008 : 20:40:09
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Are there any peer reviewed papers by Dr. Sarno or any other TMS/ Mind Body Practitioner out there? If not, don't people believe that there should be an account of what goes on in the mind /body process and demonstrate it through hypothesis, study, method, demosntration, etc?
I start to feel like it's all anecdotal. I want to see the numbers. I really wish these TMS doctors took the time to actually show the studies of this.
I think I'm angry at the fact that a million papers are written for back pain, spine pain, fibro, CFS, sciatica, etc. There are extensive papers written on EVIDENCE of a "PHYSICAL NATURE" to all these pain syndromes. When it comes to pain, all the Doctors have studied the physical and at least back it up with something. I even read a paper the other day that showed direct evidence of Fibromyalgia having it's own specific gene. Now how can one refute that, when all they have is "well the rage in your brain causes this,blah blah, secret stressors, blah blah, overload blah blah, the pain is not real" and so on and so forth.
There is almost nothing on TMS other than 'theory'. Well sorry to say, but 'theories' don't get funding and don't get backing by journals, on their own.
I think this is an imporatant step. Anecdotal evidence or testimonials isn't enough. I think if TMS Doctors propose a theory of 'why' things happen, they should back it up.
I also think that wild speculation is something that gets thrown around on this board too often. All of us are going off of the THEORY that MS doeswhat it does because of(fll in te blank). We cannot prove it. Now there are a lot of biologists and scientists proving things out there. Or at least they are gathering evidence.
WHy are we not doing the same? Where is the published material from Sarno? The man is 85 friggin yars old. He's not gointo be around forever. So where willl all of his work go? Where are his patient sheets with statistcal data to back his success claims? Where are the blind studies of groups and subgroups. Where are the trials? Tests?
This is a MUST in the academic community.
I encourage everyone to press this matter more and more. We need numbers. Otherwise this looks like some Amway cult or Pyramid scheme, where the few that got 'cured', are leading the many that don't, with speculation and anecdotes.
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
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AmyAJJ
98 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 00:14:17
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I don't know about peer reviewed papers, but Dr. Schubiner on his teleclasses was reporting some statistics if I remember correctly. Or maybe they were on the free videos on his site. Actually, maybe those weren't stats specifically about TMS, but about pain studies in general. Anyway ----
If there aren't already peer review articles out there on TMS, I agree with you that the medical community needs them so that the TMS diagnosis information can be made common knowledge. You brought up a lot of good points in your post. |
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positivevibes
204 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 00:17:58
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I wish there were more cold hard numbers to back up Dr. Sarno's theory...and the theory of other docs who do Sarno-based work.
Unfortunately as you said, the drug companies with the deep pockets don't stand to benefit from such a study. So the funding for the study would have to come from elsewhere. A foundation, or private funding. I assume that is the problem: lack of funding to do a really good, valid double blind study.
Seems that TMS is harder to prove than other conditions because it is generated from the mind -- it's a psychological condition. There's no blood test or specific way to prove, without a doubt, that a person is suffering from TMS except for observation and findings based on questioning, examining, and past evidence (deduction).
I'm not sure how it's different from other psychological conditions that you also can't prove with a blood test or concrete measurement. It falls into a grey area that could easily be called quackery.
Personally I like Dr. Schechter's take on TMS: that it is a disruption or malfunction of the autonomic nervous system. Because that's sure as hell the way it feels with me. The times when TMS has hit big was after a major stressful event. My body just felt weird, and within days, whammo -- a TMS attack. If they could find a way to measure something in that realm, maybe they'd have something. |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 04:27:25
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| Much information was generated in this world way before peer reviewed research existed....actually much more information higher quality information was generated because people didn't count on a field such as medicine to provide them with information. When Columbus sailed the ocean blue, did he wait until there was a peer reviewed paper on whether the world was really round? |
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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 04:59:10
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I agree that this is a very important point and, fortunately, as the brigade of TMS physicians increase, more and more studies have been published and many more are on the horizon. Dr. Schubiner is working on a number of TMS studies and Dr. Schechter has already published a couple (see below). The problem isn't really in putting the information out there, it's in getting people to listen. Granted, that will be a lot easier with some hard data in our corner. Take care.
Back Pain as a Distraction Pain Syndrome: A Window to a Whole New Dynamic in Integrative Medicine. D Schechter, A Smith - Evidence-Based Integrative Medicine, 2005.
Outcomes of a mind-body treatment program for chronic back pain with no distinct structural pathology--a case series of patients diagnosed and treated as tension myositis syndrome. Schechter D, Smith AP, Beck J, Roach J, Karim R, Azen S. Seligman Medical Institute. Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine, 2007.
Psychosomatic concepts in chronic pain. IG Rashbaum, JE Sarno. Archives of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, 2003.
Best,
MK |
Edited by - mk6283 on 05/29/2008 05:06:35 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 20:34:20
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Be on the lookout for the name Gordon J.G. Asmundson. He is a Canadian clinician and writer who has co-written a well-received self-help book on health anxiety. I have corresponded with him directly and told him my story. His specialty now is the study of chronic pain, particularly the relationship of chronic pain to anxiety disorders.
The basis of his book on health anxiety is to teach patients to learn to interpret the language of their body to stress and realize that their disturbing and sometimes debilitating symptoms (back and neck pain named specifically) are really just messages of stress that have been misinterpreted by anxious thinking. This is not much of a departure from Sarno's work, but he also states explicitly that Freudian intervention is the wrong approach and is to be avoided.
He is planning a new book aimed at self-helpers, and will tilt away from Freudian thought and focus on steps that must be taken to overcome the pain and disability it causes, especially when there is an obvious correlation in the onset of the symptoms with stressful life conditions.
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 17:38:51
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The number of employees in the NHS in the UK was 1.3 million in 2006. The pop of the UK is about 60 million. This is in a country with a seriously diminished manufacturing base.
Can you imagine the government encouraging the laying off of 90% of the staff because illness is result of wrong thinking? Can you imagine the staff happily resigning because they are no longer needed? There is big money tied up in the health industry and a cheaper option won't be accepted easily. |
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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 20:27:31
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I agree with Scotty. Back pain is something of a 100 billion dollar a year business. The so called "real" medical doctors have nothing to gain by putting together a study other than the shrinking of their own wallets. Seriously, if TMS was widely accepted as the reason for the current pain epidemic - practices would crumble. Unless of course the mainstream medical doctors became versed in treating the TMS syndrome itself. Chiropractors, Physical therapists, surgeons, primary care physicians, drug companies, acupuncturists, pain clinics all across the globe would have to shut down.
You get who you see. The diagnosis and treatment suggested depends on the pain type of doctor you go to first.
As for studies - it would be wonderful. But unfortunately, you have only a handful of doctors trying to "get the word out" and "prove" TMS theory compared to the tens of thousands that either proactively "slap TMS Theory down" for being unproven, or at minimum decide to ignore TMS completely because it doesn't fit in their paradigm.
Difficult predicament. But for those of us who believe that this COULD be the cause of our pain, we need to stop trying to understand or "prove" it. Apply the treatment program and if you get results, don't question why it worked. |
Edited by - Webdan65 on 05/30/2008 20:29:19 |
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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 05/31/2008 : 11:29:59
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Hillbilly, I've been reading a book that I think would be perfect for you. "The Emotional Brain" by Joseph LeDoux. Dr. LeDoux is probably the world's foremost expert on the amygdala (your favorite brain structure). I would imagine that you would like to know his ideas and theories. Otherwise, I'd venture that your knowledge and expertise in the realm of anxiety would be quite limited. Read the book and then tell me again how Freud was a moron and the unconscious mind doesn't really exist.
Best,
MK |
Edited by - mk6283 on 05/31/2008 11:33:32 |
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Hillbilly
USA
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 09:44:33
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MK,
Thanks for the tip on the book. But please remember that MY amygdala has been reprogrammed, so I don't feel the bodily state of angry indignance when people whose intellect isn't on par with mine attempt to insult me.  |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2008 : 23:38:28
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quote:
people whose intellect isn't on par with mine
I don't know about the bodily state of angry indignance but that response sounds a teensy, weensy bit p****d to me! |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 01:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Scottydog
The number of employees in the NHS in the UK was 1.3 million in 2006. The pop of the UK is about 60 million. This is in a country with a seriously diminished manufacturing base.
Can you imagine the government encouraging the laying off of 90% of the staff because illness is result of wrong thinking? Can you imagine the staff happily resigning because they are no longer needed? There is big money tied up in the health industry and a cheaper option won't be accepted easily.
Sad but true fact.
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 01:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
Much information was generated in this world way before peer reviewed research existed....actually much more information higher quality information was generated because people didn't count on a field such as medicine to provide them with information. When Columbus sailed the ocean blue, did he wait until there was a peer reviewed paper on whether the world was really round?
I'm not saying the peer review process is any 'standard', especially these days in Corporate owned America. I'm trying to say it would 'help'. And I don't disagree with what you said.
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"Over thinking...over analyzing...separates the body from the mind." Maynard from the band TOOL |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 05:13:17
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| Agreed |
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Peer Reviewed Papers From TMS Docs?
