| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
curingCFS
36 Posts |
 Posted - 02/22/2008 : 05:17:27
|
Working at it and working at it--of course my problem is fatigue--
For a couple weeks every other day I was able to for half an hour, walk and jog to 140 beats per minute then I'd walk until it came down to 120 then jog again. That I was able to do it was pretty miraculous BUT I laid down like most of the time cause of the fatigue. So I'd make myself excercise, push myself, say see you can do it. Yet stuck on the couch most of the time otherwise.
Yes I hoped exercise would recondition me and give me more energy (it IS supposed to do that).
But now for 4 days straight I'm laying on the couch with my typical symptoms (sinusy, fatigue, swollen glands, sore muscles).
Should I NOT exercise until I'm of normal energy? Or should I push myself as able?
I'd like your opinions please |
|
|
Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 08:39:35
|
You should try the best you can to ignore the symptoms and resume normal physical activity.
When you exercise despite the fatigue it sends an important message to your unconscious.
Obviously you should not push yourself beyond reasonable limits. But if you can muster up just a little physical activity, and slowly increase it over time, it will help the reconditioning process. |
 |
|
|
armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 09:32:16
|
Sounds like you might be pushing a little too hard for now by trying to go to some external standard. You might try relaxing about it a little, and just trying some normal activities like going for a comfortable pace walk, doing the dishes or laundry, going to the store, etc. I don't think it will help so much in your mind if you jog but then otherwise lie on the couch.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
|
|
|
curingCFS
36 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2008 : 12:28:51
|
Thank you Dave and armchairlinguist.
And yes for 30 minutes I walk/jog and say ha ha I can do it and then for 10 hours I'm flat out and TMS says ha ha no you aint. And which is the greater message?
When I was walking for 20-30 minutes I hadn't a problem, but then I though ah, more is better and wouldn't I be whipping myself in shape--I got the whipping part right!
I don't doubt the TMS made me do it, it is such a devil. If TMS keeps my body in somewhat less than ideal repair, then willpower to exercise aint gonna immediately correct that. Say the adrenals aren't up to par, the oxygen isn't fully in the brain (in CFS there are tests that prove with a wired up treadmill exercising there is reduced blood profusion of the brain--no surprise there tms).
You'd think I'd be somewhat grateful that I can go out everday on errands, excersise lightly, had some thought that maybe possibly I'll be able to work in the future. But I want to take it all the way--and maybe there needs to be diligence, but maybe after all it is a divine sort of grace that resolves the condition instead of my own will.
See this is why I love this board. It is so OBVIOUS but I could not see it. Yes I Can for 30 minutes vs.10 hours of No I Can't. I'm leaving that 30 minutes behind and sticking with I Can gradual gradual activity. |
|
|
|
Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 14:31:44
|
As a former CFSer I have been gradually building my exercise and attribute my gradual recovery with doing so. And doing the exercise is part of my TMS approach. I find that, almost without exception, it's better to push through and keep to my routine of going to the gym and yoga classes, than not, even if I then have to come home and rest for much of the day.
I already tried resting to resolve my CFS for 30 years. Now, by challenging it, mostly by exercise, I am having many powerful moments of what it feels like to have "normal" energy. I believe these are entraining my brain and giving it alternate pathways to the very conditioned and addictive pathways whereby I INTERPRET certain sensations in my body as fatigue.
Having said which, I just flew to England from California and back in 3 days to deal with my aging, ailing 90-year-old mom. Got back last night. Already went to the (indoor) pool this morning. Just realized that I probably really AM tired now, given the circumstances.
However, while dealing with the potentially exhausting task of my trip, I continually challenged my brain and body saying it couldn't go on. And I broke through to some very fluid, almost unlimited feelings of access to energy.
So I say, you go girl. Don't OVERdo it, but don't UNDERdo it either.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
Edited by - Wavy Soul on 02/23/2008 14:32:59 |
|
|
|
curingCFS
36 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 05:55:18
|
I dunno Wavy. I'm really convinced just because I CAN exercise for a half hour don't mean much if I gotta lay down most of the day.
All it will take for normal human energy is for TMS to turn back the oxygen to my brain and make a few hormonal adjustments and few immune adjustments. And no amount of pushing to exercise is gonna do that. When TMS does reverse then hell, I could start training for a marathon the next day, nothing could stop me.
But when there is fatigue and immune response, pushing through a flu can result in a backlash of sick. If I'm at 50% of normal, exercising like I'm 70% of normal is not gonna raise me to that level, in fact I go backwards. I've finally come to realize this. Exercise is not gonna be the miracle cure or helpful really.
I've taken an entire week from exercise, I'm still barely making some errands and housework.
I think when disabled/sick is 20 years in duration it may not be months it may be years it may be not at all to reverse. I've been diligent for 4 months now. And I'll keep going until. But it is important to discern what is counterproductive.
I'm sorry about your mom, but I'm glad you could go for a visit.
|
|
|
|
armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 06:52:48
|
There's no reason it would be not at all to reverse...don't get into that thinking. The reversal comes most often with mental breakthrough and deconditioning, or with emotional work/release (in some cases where mental breakthrough and deconditioning aren't enough). It's not necessarily proportional to the time you spent with TMS symptoms. But I think it's wise to be somewhat patient; it can take time to get back to full because of conditioning.
It sounds like you could use maybe some help with deconditioning process. I don't know if Fred Amir's book is good for people with fatigue symptoms, but I found it really useful, and I think his methods can be widely applied at the right level for you.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
|
|
|
swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 06:54:59
|
quote:
I dunno Wavy. I'm really convinced just because I CAN exercise for a half hour don't mean much if I gotta lay down most of the day.
Having never had CFS I'm going to ask what is probably a dumb question. What if you didn't lie down? I'm sure it's not the same thing at all but there are days when I start to put my 3 year old down for a nap and I start to lay down with him and feel like I could nap for hours. I have to force myself to get up and that is the time I use for exercise lots of times. Once I get myself going I end up having more energy. I really think that if I had chosen to lay down I would just be tired.
As for pushing through sickness, I do it all the time. Sometimes there is a slight backlash but most of the time I've found that either the sickness seems to last as long as it probably would have anyway or it seems to go away easier. Maybe it's not so much that it goes away faster but that it isn't interfering with my life.
I'm sure CFS is very different. Sorry if this is annoying. I have a good friend with Fibromyalgia and I constantly see how she assumes things will make her feel this way or that way and then, predictably, they do. I just wonder how far a little confidence and aggression on her part might take her. |
|
|
|
Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2008 : 19:36:25
|
A little confidence and aggression on my part has taken me back into a somewhat normal life.
xxx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
|
|
|
curingCFS
36 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 06:10:47
|
It surely is a measure of confidence.
I've been bedridden before, so how to lose that fear when symptoms start getting really bad and say no I'm gonna keep pushing my body. The flu is gonna leave, everyone has experience with that--CFS has not left me for 20 years after mono.
And again if TMS is gonna start lowering hormones, immune system, ability to have energy how is physical exercise gonna stop or reverse that if exercising makes it even worse because of the lowered systems. I surely didn't give up on exercise after minor worsening--I was already needing to lay down most of the time. So I tried with that half hour to say look you could do this, isn't this amazing. But it is not physically gonna change anything and it is no confidence builder. It is in fact confidence eroding.
The increase of energy I had before I upped exercise meant that I could do house/errand everyday without really bad days. That slow steady progress gave me confidence that I could get over this. Going back to all normal activities when I can't makes no sense.
The confidence I have is that it is TMS/AOS, and that I can free myself of it. I'm gonna have to find a way. |
|
|
|
swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 06:44:49
|
curingCFS--
Pardon my ignorance but I have a couple of questions. First let me state that my friend with Fibromyalgia went to many many doctors who never really could find anything wrong. So they diagnosed her with Fibro and prescribed a regimen of drugs.
Has your doctor actually found anything about you that should cause pain, fatigue, drowsiness and the like? If so then maybe my statement doesn't apply. If you actually have some kind of physical limitations then I can see how a 30 minute walk/jog might be debilitating. I'm just wondering if you actually have those limitations or if you have conditioned yourself so well that you experience them as a result of your mindset.
If you haven't exercised or even done little errands around your house for twenty years then of course upping the ante is going to make you a bit tired and probably sore. That's completely normal. It may just be a feeling with which you are entirely unfamiliar and it scares you. I don't know. If you have weight issues or heart issues then you would have to be careful but the things you mention should not cause anyone as much trouble as they're causing you unless they have a true physical problem (which should be discoverable by Doctors).
I ask again, not to be rude but because I'm curious, what would happen to you if you didn't lie down every time you felt tired? What is the horrible thing you think will happen if you push through your fatigue? Do you think you'll end up in bed? You're already there so what do you have to lose? I've just found that with TMS the key for me has been to challenge my pain and find on the other side that even if things still hurt on the other end (which they often don't) they aren't any worse for my having pushed through. What if you got pissed off at this condition and just said "F*** this, I'm doing what I want to do and you'll have to come up with something better than fatigue to stop me."?
Not trying to tick you off, though I probably have. Maybe my understanding of CFS and Fibro is way off. Having been around my friend has really made me question these things though. I just wish she'd get mad enough to not consider herself a victim and become the aggressor in this situation. I think it would help... |
Edited by - swmr1 on 02/27/2008 06:59:22 |
|
|
|
swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 07:09:45
|
I also want to say that if you (CuringCFS) are waiting for this bolt of incredible energy to strike you after exercising you will be disappointed. The energy you get from activity might not be as dramatic as you are expecting. The extra energy may be more subtle and take a little while if you are in pretty bad shape. You may have to endure a few weeks of fatigue before you hit that stage where there's just a little more energy that allows you do do a little more. It won't be a surging burst of feeling awesome.
I had a friend (with no Fibro or CFS) who wanted to start working out last year. She complained the first two weeks about how crappy she felt. Then, after that she began to gradually be able to handle the increase in activity. That's when she decided she had more energy. The feelings often take a little while to catch up when you begin a new habit... |
|
|
|
Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 08:31:53
|
quote:
if TMS is gonna start lowering hormones, immune system, ability to have energy how is physical exercise gonna stop or reverse that
Hi Curing (my name for you!!)
First, I don't want to give the impression that I think you're wrong or "not getting it." Since I went through 30 (count 'em THIRTY!) years of severe CFS and FMS including lots of bedridden years in there, I absolutely know how frustrating the whole thing is, and also how shaming it can feel when everyone who doesn't have the experience gives you their two or twenty cents.
Having said which, I wanted to answer your question I quoted above about exercise:
The exercise I do is more about bringing movement, flexibility and strength into my body, with a bit more yang energy than I had considered doable for all those years. I work out with a trainer, using weights, and I go to 3 fairly active yoga flow classes a week. I don't do lots of cardio on a treadmill - this seems to wipe me out.
When I get my body moving, I can sometimes - quite often - feel a kind of spark getting ignited that is more than physical. There is a kind of frozenness that I hold deep in my body that I think represents my emotional pain from childhood and beyond. In my family we tend to hold it in a very painful and symptom-ridden physical body. Other families drink under the table, etc. etc.
In doing these rituals of movement in which I ALWAYS have to push beyond my normal and previous tolerance, I hit a moment where I have to let go of one level of bodily experience and kind of "ascend" into the next - a less dense, less "held" level that feels more like a flow of CHI or what people call a light body. I think it is activating this that is healing me. Woo woo though it may sound, I believe that this is the causative level that can generate the needed hormones and whatever else to bring me more into physical harmony.
When I'm in the "level-switching" phase, I often feel like bailing. Occasionally I have picked up my mat and left yoga class. Other times with my trainer I get VERY cranky. But if I pay attention to what I'm feeling emotionally at those times, I notice that there is a HUGE emotional component to my very physical feelings of "fatigue," and "I can't go on." At those moments I am learning to make a choice to acknowledge the feelings - which really feel like the feelings of a stressed-out child - yet not totally cave in to them. I don't totally override them either. I am learning the balance. I sit out parts of yoga class, for example.
As someone said above, it's slow and gradual and there are setbacks, but after 30 years I'm grateful to be FEELING the light at the end of the tunnel.
Hope this is helpful.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
Edited by - Wavy Soul on 02/27/2008 08:36:57 |
|
|
|
Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 14:03:02
|
Swmr1,
I've also had chronic fatigue and pain that started 20 years ago, along with other symptoms. I've been given diagnoses of both CFS and Fibro. Prior to the time that these symptoms became "permanent," I'd experienced off and on symptoms in response to stress. But I pushed on through the stress and pain and fatigue, always. I worked two jobs, I was raising 7 children, I was sleeping no more than 4 hours per night. I was definitely not lying down just because I felt a little tired. I'd always been taught to push through illness, to keep working, whether I had a cold, the flu, or anything else. That's the thing that finally made the symptoms come to stay 20 years ago, because I refused to listen to my body and slow down.
The majority of people I know with CFS/Fibro are people who always pushed themselves to do more, to keep going no matter how they felt. It's certainly not a case of not being used to feeling tired and sore and being afraid to keep going. It was a big surprise to me when I finally became so fatigued that I literally couldn't make my body get up and work. It's not just fatigue, it includes malaise, that really cruddy feeling of being ill, with the sore lymph nodes, sore throat and other signs of illness. What happens now when I continue pushing through the fatigue and pain? I collapse, literally. It happens mentally as well. I am running a small business with my son (I do the office work), and when I try to keep working even though I'm getting very tired, my brain becomes more and more "foggy" and confused. It literally starts to feel numb, as if someone had injected Novocaine, forcing me to stop working because I can't think.
It's also not just a matter of our bodies becoming deconditioned from lack of activity. I used to be an exercise addict, and I never would have become deconditioned in the first place if it had been possible to simply push through the fatigue and other symptoms.
This is not to say that it's not possible to recover from these kinds of symptoms with Sarno's technique. Some people even get well using other methods, such as Wavy suggests. But returning to activity *often* has to be done very gradually. The recommendation I've read and heard is to increase activity by about 5 minutes at a time. Some people might be able to increase by 5 minutes per week, others may need to go even more slowly. It's very common for people who try to do too much to experience setbacks. I believe that it's crucial to keep doing the emotional work as well, in order to have success. I have made progress, but the fatigue is still a major problem. However, I'm sure the reason I'm still dealing with these symptoms is that I'm still working my way through emotional issues relating to an ongoing situation in my life.
CuringCFS, have you ever read the book "Freedom from Fibromyalgia," by Dr. Selfridge? You might find it useful, since she has dealt with this crushing fatigue. While I believe that the unconscious mind and autonomic nervous system do manipulate the immune system in causing these symptoms, I don't believe that there are any permanent changes going on, so once we get into the recovery process I think we can expect all the symptoms to eventually disappear. I draw a lot of encouragement from Penny's experience at recovering from being bedridden. In the past there have been others here who also conquered these same symptoms. Don't give up! |
|
|
|
swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 15:00:01
|
Thanks for the great description, Littlebird. My only real familiarity with Fibro has been this one friend. She's not at all like what you've described. She's not at all athletic and has a tendency to expect others to do things for her. So, my impressions may be result from an atypical sufferer.
Your situation sounds completely different. I appreciate the clarification. |
|
|
|
Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 15:48:09
|
Swmr1,
I do know someone who seems more like the friend you describe. She is generally able to push through and be more active when there are fun things to do, but when there are responsibilities to be handled, she is too sick. I can't say whether she is exaggerating her symptoms or if they really are worse because the idea of responsibility is stressful to her. But she does make people who know her think that CFS or Fibro is just an excuse to avoid things she doesn't want to do. I also have an in-law who has all kinds of odd symptoms that medical tests can't explain who uses her health as an excuse to avoid responsibility. I've seen her put on a real show, going from normal one minute to suddenly acting very ill when a certain person joins us. It's extremely irritating to see.
But most of the people I know who have developed these symptoms are more in the category of being driven to get as much out of their bodies as they could. The stress of trying to handle too many responsibilities seems to be what led to the symptoms for many of us. One of the most frustrating things to deal with is having people think that we are just trying to avoid work, including people who knew us when we were well and working out tails off, as if we suddenly had a complete turn-around in our personality, going from hard-working to lazy. (I appreciated the way you worded your inquiries, not assuming you knew what this is like for everyone based on your friend's behavior) Perhaps avoiding some of the work we used to do is the goal of our unconscious mind, but it's not a conscious choice, and for most of us the symptoms are like a prison, keeping us from living our lives the way we want to. That's why it's so wonderful to know about TMS, to know there is a way to overcome this. It's been a great relief to get rid of the symptoms that I have been able to conquer so far.
|
|
|
|
swmr1
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 17:11:12
|
quote:
I do know someone who seems more like the friend you describe. She is generally able to push through and be more active when there are fun things to do, but when there are responsibilities to be handled, she is too sick. I can't say whether she is exaggerating her symptoms or if they really are worse because the idea of responsibility is stressful to her. But she does make people who know her think that CFS or Fibro is just an excuse to avoid things she doesn't want to do. I also have an in-law who has all kinds of odd symptoms that medical tests can't explain who uses her health as an excuse to avoid responsibility. I've seen her put on a real show, going from normal one minute to suddenly acting very ill when a certain person joins us. It's extremely irritating to see.
Wow. I like my friend. I think she means well most of the time and she is even helpful sometimes. But this paragraph describes her to some extent. Then I feel guilty for being annoyed. I believe she has true issues (anxiety, depression, an obsessive fixation on germs and anything that could possibly go wrong) that are causing her system to go a little haywire. But I can't say that I can tell it's because she's pushed herself at all. I knew her before this all started and used to be a little wary of her tendency to avoid anything difficult. |
|
|
|
curingCFS
36 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2008 : 16:56:26
|
I am overwhelmed with the support given here. I want to thank you so much.
Yesterday I read The No Sweat Exercise Plan important new information about exercise from Harvard medical School by Harvey Simon. 2006
It says that you can reap massive health benefits (lowered risk of death, diabetes heart disease high blood pressure etc.) at heart rate of 55%-70% for me that is 97-124. So yesterday and today, I strapped my heart rate monitor on and I went for my walk/jog of 20 minutes 106 beats, jog to 120 walk down to 106. Yesterday and today energy ALL day long.
I was working out too hard for me, and I got overtrained, and of course TMS backlash. I will not budge from these numbers for at least a month.
The problem with being disabled for so long is what the hell is normal? I am finding out for me.
Whats cool about this book is there is a point system. You need 150 for health a day and 300 is optimum.
cooking moderate 30 minutes 60 points
chopping wood moderate 30mins 200 points
mopping moderate 30mins 115
sexual activity conventional familiar partner 15 minutes 25 points LOL!
It has lots of activities, sports/athletics and different speeds of walking points.
I wanted to share this book with you. I'm really excited because I need the structure. This is why I wear the heartrate monitor. I have no brakes, I'll push and whip and harange myself. I beat myself more than I baby myself. I'm taking the middle road of slow and steady improvement.
I do also find lots of inspiration from Penny.
I sure want to be a success story here so I can be of some use to others too.
Thank you again for helping to lift me up.
|
|
|
|
Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2008 : 13:55:51
|
CuringCFS, thanks for sharing the name of the book. Sounds interesting. Being able to increase my daily activities to the levels I had before is my main goal, even though I'd like to someday be able to do the type of actual "exercise" I used to do as well.
I just came across an article that reports on a study in which people who were experiencing fatigue (though not CFS, the article explains the type of fatigue the subjects had) got more of an energy benefit from lower-intensity exercise than those who did moderate-intensity exercise. Even though they didn't use subjects with CFS, it seems to fit with other info I've read regarding getting back into a more active lifestyle gradually. Might be worth a read. Here are a couple of quotes from the article:
"In this latest study, the researchers studied volunteers who had fatigue that was persistent yet didn’t meet the criteria for a medical condition such as chronic fatigue syndrome. O’Connor said about 25 percent of the general population experiences such fatigue."
"'It could be that moderate-intensity exercise is too much for people who are already fatigued,' O’Connor said, 'and that might contribute to them not getting as great an improvement as they would had they done the low-intensity exercise.'"
Here's the link: http://psychcentral.com/news/2008/02/29/chronic-fatigue-reduced-by-exercise/1985.html
I think it's important for us to not only be working towards resuming normal activities, but also to continue doing journaling or whatever type of emotional exploration works best for us, since the real source of out fatigue is the repression of emotions. I've been at this for a while and even though I don't think I need to identify more "events" from the past that led me to develop TMS, I am still discovering and learning to deal with emotions that I'd never realized were involved. |
|
|
|
curingCFS
36 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2008 : 17:30:31
|
Excellent article Littlebird, thanks.
I'm taking my "daily constitutional" with no problem now. My trusty heartrate monitor keeps me right. And yes staying at a lower heart rate is key I think.
I feel I should say what has worked for me exercise-wise--so many things I tried and couldn't do, or made me worse. I tried yoga, pilates, pilates machine, free weights, aerobic tape, callenetics, push-ups etc.. This is the one thing I could do and it developed my muscles where I couldn't do anything to help with strength. It is called T-Tapp. I got the More rehab 4 in 1 program. I still love that workout after a year and I have the Body Plus Workout. It really has been a miracle workout for me in terms of muscle development but also gives me energy. I don't know if I'm allowed to link the website here. But her name is Theresa Tapp, she came out with a book too that has a 30% off coupon to purchase any workouts.
But if you read her website forum you might think the people are fanatical and cultlike (at least that is what I thought) until I bought and I benefited. Now I am a fanatic.
I hope this is of some use. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Exercise for more energy -is it wrong for me?
