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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
 Posted - 12/03/2007 : 10:36:22
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OK, I think I already know the answer, having been studying TMS for many months now. I've had some positive results with about half of my pain issues by employing the techniques that I've learned from this forum and several of the excellent books that I've purchased on the subject. But I've decided that my chronic headaches and cervical neck pain warrants further non TMS investigation before resuming a TMS based attack. So against everything I've previously believed about chiropractors, and despite what I've learned about TMS, I made a visit.
The results were very interesting to me, and maybe to the other members here as well. They have a machine that monitors electrical muscle activity and/or tension in the back, one vertebra at a time. Then they plot the results on a monitor, superimposed over an image of your back (as viewed from the back). I was fairly impressed being a fairly skeptical guy. Two areas of my back give me trouble: occasional thoracic pain from previous ski injury and chronic cervical pain believed to be the cause of my headaches. Both of these areas show very heightened muscle activity and imbalance. Very consistent with my physical complaints and probably difficult to fake. As a diagnostic tool, I think I'm convinced.
The results are still consistent with what we know about TMS (that the physical symptoms are actually real), and so this machine may be useful for verifying what I already knew, that there is musculoskeletal based pain. But what I really didn't expect was the refreshingly holistic approach taken by the guy. He had many charts in the office showing and explaining about the autonomic nervous system, and how its harmony with the musculoskeletal system is important for the overall well being of the body.
So my first visit was not what I expected, and I was wondering if anybody else had strong ideas about chiropractic, one way or the other. I know it's not likely to be highly regarded within the circle of TMS purists, but all the same I'm wondering if there is any merit in it, especially for issues not responding well to TMS treatment. I'm considering pursuing it further for areas of complaint that have not responded well to methods of TMS treatment. Am I just falling off the TMS bandwagon here?
Any ideas and opinions about the chiropractic approach? In conjunction with the TMS ideas? Any harm other than acknowledging the physical? Anybody had good luck? Bad luck? Is the diagnostic method correct but the treatment method misguided? Placebo, etc? Just hoping for some interesting ideas and viewpoints that I might not have been thinking about. |
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koukla
70 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 11:59:13
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I think that there are good and bad chiros out there so it's really hard to generalize. I personally never saw much of an effect from chiropractic myself. Any decent chiro won't continue to treat you if you aren't seeing an improvement in a reasonable amount of time, so you could try it for a few weeks to see if it works for you. Afterwards, you could pursue the TMS treatment gung ho if you see that the chiropractic isn't working. That is the deal with myself when I tried the PT/chiro. I determined that it wasn't doing anything and then I went with my gut and the TMS. I wouldn't expect a result if you are doing both together, as you can't be wishy washy with TMS.
Did you ask the chiro what he thought of the TMS theory? I do think that although the diagnostic tool sounds like it's accurate at detecting muscle tension, chiropractic adjustments wouldn't necessarily correct the problem. The muscles are what keep the bones in place and I don't see how manipulating the bones will do anything to the muscles. If the cause of the muscle tension is from your emotions, a manipulation will not be able to do anything for you.
Carolyn |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 12:01:37
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Hi AnthonEE,
I've had that back imaging done and have the image still, but I stopped going to the chiropractor because in spite of the imaging results the treatment was not making any long-term difference. This was before I learned of TMS, and was a financial decision. But I had found that if I gave it a few days, my headaches and neck pain would go away on their own, so if I was having constant pain without relief, I might have decided to continue. I would feel much better after the adjustment, but it usually didn't last long and I'd be back where I started. After reading that most back and neck pain will eventually resolve without treatment, I decided to stop spending my money, because I have no insurance to cover it.
Now I don't have the pain very often, probably because I learned of TMS. When I do get it, it goes away pretty quickly, but your question makes me wonder what my back would look like on the image if I went in while I'm not having the pain. My neck and shoulder muscles are still tense a lot of the time, even though I'm not getting the pain like I used to from it. And learning of TMS had enabled me to get rid of the fear I used to feel when I twisted my lower back and heard a popping noise, followed by sudden pain. I still hear the pop, but I don't get the pain anymore when I twist my back. It's interesting how it just stopped causing me pain, because in the past if I twisted my back that way the only way to get rid of the pain was to go have the chiropractor give me an adjustment.
You mentioned an injury which you consider the cause of thoracic pain, but is there some issue that you consider responsible for the cervical pain and headaches or did that start out of the blue? Why do you think the ski injury is still causing thoracic pain? Was there some permanent change to the spine from it?
Although I don't expect to ever go back to the chiropractor, I won't rule out the possibility that some people will find it useful. My son still feels the need to pop his own back. We both kind of look at it as being like popping one's knuckles, sometimes it feels good but it doesn't really mean there was something wrong with the knuckle. Some of my other children go to the chiropractor regularly and feel it gives them relief, albeit only temporarily. My personal feeling is that it won't hurt you to try it out, and if it doesn't work well for you then you've reaffirmed that the pain is just TMS, but others might disagree.
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Wilf
Canada
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 12:08:17
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I went to Chiropractors for 30 years. I also had a number of different "hands on" types of therapy. After an "adjustment" or a "treatment", I had temporary relief. Within a couple of days, pains would return, sometimes in the same place and sometimes in a different place. About 5 years ago, I read MBP and I stopped all treatments. The pains which kept me going to practitioners hoping to obtain permanent relief, have not returned.
Save your money. All their fancy gagets and double-talk will bring you temporary placebo relief. |
Edited by - Wilf on 12/03/2007 12:10:19 |
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lidge
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 13:13:03
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AnthonyEE-
For what its worth, I'm not a purist in anything, but my experience with chiros is that most are a crock. I too have cervical spine issues - after having my neck manipulated twice it was worse. One honest chiro said he would not do anything but acupuncture.
Another one did this slick presentation - weighed me on two scales-yes uneven weight, did his own bizarre xays and actually told me that my cervical spine degeneration has worsed somewhat from the time I had the MRI (it had been months). I actually had a second MRI of the cervical spine and it was unchanged from the first one. Of course he wanted to sell me a big expensive package. When I declined, he sent me a letter telling me that I was welcome to return when I was ready "to make my health a priority" !
There may be some that actually believe in the nonsense they push. Essentially the cracking is the same as cracking your knuckles - you just can't do it on your own. I truly believe that the people who claim they feel better are experiencing placebos or just a vague feeling of getting the kinks out.
I know when TMS is not working its seductive to go back to a chiro. After all, they promise to fix you without surgery. I think that is also a big part of the appeal - it enables people to feel like they can be "fixed" without having to deal with the trauma of the medical profession. I think they are very proficient in mixing solid science (autonomic system etc.) with pseudoscience so that the average person cannot filter fact from fiction.
I think the "holistic" approach is also appealing and taps into our desire to have that type of healthcare. I don't know about the person you are seeing, but do not be surprised if the warm fuzzy feeling you have fades away after signing on the dotted line. If nothing else, do not commit long term. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 13:13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Littlebird
You mentioned an injury which you consider the cause of thoracic pain, but is there some issue that you consider responsible for the cervical pain and headaches or did that start out of the blue?
So short story: three years back I was lifting heavy boxes over my head. On about the sixth or seventh box I got a very painful nasty tweak in the muscle between my shoulder blades, on the right side, away from the spine. It was immediately difficult to hold up my head without sharp pain at the base of my head on the right side. And is was almost impossible to turn my head to the right without bad pain. It passed in about a week. But then, great sadness, it recurred several months later when I picked up a box of books. Same symptoms, lasted another week. Then another month later, symptoms returned after a deep tissue massage (!) Overall I've had this now every 3-4 months since this initial "injury" (but knock on wood almost a year now since last episode). But around the same time I started getting occasional nauseating headaches that seem to originate from the base of my head/neck. Thought it was tension or eye strain or something. Ruled out eyes, blood pressure, neuro problem, etc. PT did not help. And now frequency of headaches has increased to the point I have them more often than not. It's terrible. Not certain it's from the previous injury, but it sure seems closely related, would be surprised if it was something unrelated. Have ruled out rhomboid tear, cervical spine/disk problems. And most recently have been working on TMS approach. But there is a continual feeling of a mechanical problem at the base of my head on the right side. And headaches are still a very big problem for me, I wake up in the morning with them, and nausea. Thus the visit to chiropractor. And headache specialist in a few weeks. I hate to abandon hope in TMS for this but it just hasn't been responding for several months now. If anybody could help me fix this then they could have my house. I'd be that grateful.
quote:
Originally posted by Littlebird
Why do you think the ski injury is still causing thoracic pain? Was there some permanent change to the spine from it?
No damage to spine or disks, but there are many very small deep muscles in the back (example: rotator group, multifidis, etc) and I believe one of them may have gotten torn or scarred. I don't know for certain but it's going on two years now and I still have flair ups every six months or so depending on which side I've slept, or how I've lifted something that I shouldn't have been lifting. This could be TMS too, but not sure because while many things have responded, this one has not. Generally it doesn't really cause me much trouble, but it's not the same as prior to the fall. Or so it seems. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 13:16:19
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quote:
Originally posted by lidge
... after signing on the dotted line. If nothing else, do not commit long term.
Thanks Lidge - I appreciate your input on this. I will most certainly not make any commitments to the chiro, nor will I permit him to make any manual "adjustments" to my neck. Thanks! |
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mk6283
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 15:43:30
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PLACEBO!!!
Best,
MK |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 18:44:21
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quote:
Originally posted by mk6283
PLACEBO!!!
Well, I had my second visit today, and if you asked me yesterday I'd say he had 50% chance of being a quack. Today I think he's up to about 80% chance  I just don't see how any of the stuff he's doing can possibly make any difference at all. But I'm going for another few weeks, benefit of the doubt I suppose... |
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la_kevin
USA
351 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 19:23:39
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I had very extensive treatment in Chiropractics when I was on my work comp from my injury that became TMS. I paid lots of cash for the latest treatments, spinal decompression from a $500,000 dollar machine, "stripping" of muscle tissue and ligaments, daily massage for 2 months straight, adjustments from the top pros in Los Angeles,muscle analysis from machines like you describe, E- stims, muscle "retraining" and conditioning,etc.
When they measured my muscle tension and imbalance with their machine(forget the name) I was not as bad as many they had on record, but I had some "imbalance" as they say. After a few weeks of treatment, they tested again and my muscle tension was much less and in the "green" . They attributed it to the treatment and such, I had to agree.
Point is, after two months straight of intense treatment and nearly $10,000 dollars cash paid out, I came home and was still in pain. The treatment did something, but overall it didn't end pain.
Placebo effect? I'm still 50/50 on that one. My feelings about Chiropractic have changed though, from a pure "adjustment" logic. Cracking your back is basically like cracking your knuckles. Fluid displacement and air displacement. I don't see how that could possibly cure anything. I am a definite believer in muscle tension being a culprit though and I think chiro adjustments send a temporary signal to from surrounding muscles to the brain that the tension or load bearing is "relieved", but my opinion is that it is purely a temporary feeling.
The key for me always lies with the muscles. The thought of re- aligning a spine with manipulation once a week for a few months is BS IMO. It would take daily weighted tension/pullie systems along with some sort of traction to achieve real, long term spinal straightening.
And as far as pressure on the disc and disc height goes, once you walk around for an hour after a Chiro session, gravity takes over and the disc will be right back to where it was before. To achieve nominal disc height, you would have to spend hours a day hanging upside down or suspended in water to satisfy that goal, which is not going to happen for most people.
I do believe that muscle imbalance can be a culprit and can be corrected. Unlike people with inborn defects where tissue and and ligaments have re-routed around the various curvatures, a sudden muscle imbalance can cause pain because the body is telling you that it isn't used to this change. There are also women that get breast reductions for back pain, and as soon as they "lighten the load" they mostly report a big improvement. Which is a definite example of muscle burden giving pain.
But to sum up, I just don't believe that from all I read and experienced, that Chiro treatment makes any logical sense as far as "healing" anything. Someone would be better off with daily stretching or something similar to yoga. My first Chiropractor said to me one day, "If people did daily stretches for at least half an hour, I would be out of a job, all Chiropractic medicine would be obsolete, but you guys don't, so you end up here."
Even Chiros know the key is muscle tension. Now if you have chronic muscle tension while at rest, for months/years on end, or reactive to emotions, I would say a TMS scenario is no doubt there.
And to add, no Chiro can ever explain how adjusting joints(which is basically what vertebrae are ) can correct muscle pain in a reverse order. Joints and bones get displaced through muscle tension, not the other way around. They also say things like the Sacrum, the Ilio Bands, Comparable Hip Height, Anterior Posterior balance, are the keys to weight displacement and therefor pain. I couldn't find you 3 people out of a hundred with all these factors in perfect alignment. It's completely ridiculous to think that our bodies are that particular. I would expect that type of argument from some Eugenics Nazi as some entry in some weird thesis or something.
It has to be muscles. And if it is, there are only a few things I can imagine.
Pollutants that cause muscle tension on a scale unseen in developed countries,lower Magnesium, Sodium, Calcium levels in foods,Air pollutants that haven't been studied causing some form of immune response that we don't know of, some sort of virus or low level parasite that hasn't been caught which survives on nerve channels,rise in electro magnetic fields in industrial nations(which is still a working theory with me),plastics in food. But these are just theries that have little backing.
I don't believe that Sarno is right that the back pain epidemic is a subconscious choice by millions with suppressed rage or emotions. I do believe the epidemic exists, but the reason why it has become that is still a mystery to me. I do believe we live in a high pressure society with false security and too much information, too fast, with no real outlets like we had before all this technology came along.
Wow I'm rambling. Ok I'm done. To be continued. |
Edited by - la_kevin on 12/03/2007 19:43:55 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 20:08:42
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Chiro is mostly nonsense, and your symptoms are classic TMS.
The $600 I paid to a chiro (who was an interesting guy and actually did more trigger point treatment than anything else) was the last $600 I paid to a medical practitioner to treat TMS.
I could spend a long time refuting your specific suggestions about physical injuries that you have, but I suggest you do it for yourself. Review Sarno and see what he says about an acute injury that 'recurs'...
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2007 : 20:35:55
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The chiro issue has nothing to do with being a "purist".
Simply put, any physical treatment is counter to the TMS concept. It is essential to repudiate structural diagnoses.
You can continue to seek chiropractic treatment if you wish, but then you should cease treating your pain as TMS because you have chosen a different, incompatible path. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 07:50:43
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quote:
Originally posted by la_kevin
I had very extensive treatment in Chiropractics when I was on my work comp from my injury that became TMS. I paid lots of cash for the latest treatments, spinal decompression from a $500,000 dollar machine, "stripping" of muscle tissue and ligaments, daily massage for 2 months straight, adjustments from the top pros in Los Angeles,muscle analysis from machines like you describe, E- stims, muscle "retraining" and conditioning,etc.
...
Wow, thanks for this comprehensive reply. I hear exactly what you are saying, and largely I agree with the points you make. This is exactly the type of feedback I am looking for. I too find it completely implausible that a simple click clack click clack on my vertebra can induce any lasting benefit. As soon as I stand up and put 100 pounds of weight on the spine, then the alignment will immediately go back into the chronic (good or bad) positions. Exactly what you said, and also what I believe.
I decided to investigate this chiropractic line of thinking because several people, including my therapist, thought very highly of it and recommended it to me. But maybe I can reach a proper conclusion about it sooner rather than later based on all this feedback and based on my own experiences prior to spending large amounts of time and money on it.
I also know it is incompatible with TMS treatment prescribed by Sarno and the members of this forum. So if there is merit in chiropractic then I'd be prepared to abandon or postpone the TMS approach while taking that treatment. Quite frankly I'm not very impressed with what chiropractic seems to offer. But the only way to find out I suppose is to find out  And so I really appreciate all the time and effort you all have spent to respond to my question. |
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painintheneck
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 08:45:34
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Anthonee,
Please be very careful with chiro and neck issues heck any issues really.
I have been to three diff chiro's in the last 10 years in an attempt to cure my neck, shoulder, upper back and headache issues.
NEVER again do I allow one to touch my neck. There are risks btw of having your neck adjusted you may want to research that one.
The last chiro I went to had this great idea of helping my neck to regain some of it's "normal" curvature. I ended up in so much pain after paying out of pocket for x amount of visits I ended up in the reg Doc's office, then to an MRI machine and then to a neurosurgeon. I was on Muscle relaxers, pain pills and steroids. I couldn't sleep because of the pain, couldn't bend my head foreward, couldn't do much because I was feeling sick almost every waking moment.
Please be cautious over any treatment you allow. Sometimes they sound all great and it seems hopeful but the Chiro's don't seem to care as much when you are screwed because of their treatment.
Anyway it took me 2 years to get back to my "normal" pain again. I actually have what sounds like a similar type of head pain you have.
I have mostly right sided tension at the base of my skull, I get frequent headaches, if I sleep on my side I wake up with a kink that sticks around for oh 3 to 4 days. The original injury occured at work lifting a patient some 10-11 years ago.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2007 : 09:26:58
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The whole basis of chiropractic is entirely contradictory to the fundamentals of TMS theory, that our bodies are strong, resilient, and heal completely from injury.
I know that there are good chiropractors out there who believe in their craft and want to help people. One of my good friends is a chiropractor and I learned a lot from him. For example he was very quick to point out that stress "collects" in our bodies and at certain trigger points. This is not entirely contradictory to TMS.
However, TMS theory disputes the fundamental concept that our vertebrae can go out of alignment and that this misalignment is responsible for pain.
Even worse, there are many quack chiropractors who pray on one's fears and can even cause great harm to their patients. When I had terrible back spasms I visited one such chiropractor, who showed me X-rays and scared me into believing my spine was totally out of whack and I needed 3 treatments per week indefinitely. Despite my acute pain he gave me a major adjustment. Hours after I got home I experienced the worst pain of my life.
Looking back I know this was an acute TMS attack siezing this great opportunity. I believed in a structural cause of the pain. I was terrified that my physical condition would be debiliating. Sure enough, I needed help to get off the floor and couldn't get out of bed for days.
I now know the likely psychological trigger for this attack: I was about to sign a big consulting contract that would put great demands on my time. On the outside I was beaming at the financial success. On the inside I was terrified that I was spreading myself too thin and would not be able to deliver.
If you feel you must go for more chiropractic treatments to decide for yourself, then so be it. But just beware ... some chiropractors can do far more harm than good. |
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Logan
USA
203 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 12:03:50
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Anthonee,
I'll put my 2 cents in. I spent thousands of dollars and several years going to a chiropractor who was a very nice guy but who cashed my checks without doing a damn thing for me.
Well, the one thing he did do was treat me like a human being and show empathy for my pain when my GP at the time basically accused me of making it up and being a drug seeker. I didn't want drugs, I just wanted to sleep through the night and be able to work through the day without neck/shoulder pain.
Anyways, long story short. I feel 100% better since ditching the chiro and all other forms of holistic treatment, special pillows, etc. etc. I've been pain free for over 4 years. The best advice I can give you is to resume activity that's normal for you, journal, keep reading the books, maybe get the tapes, try Stan Lee's Facing the Fire and his anger release exercises - if there was a magic bullet for me it was combining Lee's work with Sarnos.
I actually wrote my chiro a letter telling him thanks but I no longer needed him as I'd cured myself using Sarno's theories. I wrote every single holistic practicioner I'd seen similarly. This really helped me psychologically to break free from old conditioning.
And btw, the headaches you describe sound like classic TMS to me. Sarno talks about getting them and how they led him to a kind of "eureka" moment when he first envisioned his TMS theory.
Since I kicked my TMS pain, I've started getting, occasionally, these headaches like you described. They radiate down my head, neck and shoulders and make me nauseous and very sensitive to light/sound. I know they're TMS equivalents because if I sit down and think about/feel what's bothering me - and maybe take some Excedrin migraine washed down with some MT. Dew (another magic bullet that let's me say F*U to the pain while I work through the underlying causes) - then they go away in an hour or so and I'm right as rain. No chiro needed. |
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AnthonEE
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2007 : 12:54:10
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Thank you Logan, very helpful and encouraging information. I'm going to hang it up with the chiropractor. It was worth the visit because I've never been to one before and I have always wondered what all the fuss was about. As far as I can tell, besides from being very empathetic and concerned as you say, he can only diagnose the problem areas for me just as well as I can do myself by listening to my own pain. So there is clearly no value there, other than hey isn't that interesting. And I refuse to allow any manipulation, esp of my neck. Frankly, I don't believe the other minor little things that he does in the 20min sessions could possibly help any. So I'm done with chiro.
I do want to very much thank everybody for their opinions, both pro and con. These headaches are my number one health concern, they really weigh on the quality of my life. And I feel the cautions that I've recieved from others' bad and often downright scary experiences from the chiropractic manipulations may have potentially saved me lots of unnecessary grief. Thanks again everybody for the input |
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mamaboulet
181 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 07:10:56
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I've been to 4 chiropractors in my life. 3 of them did nothing for me. One of those three charged me an arm and a leg because she thought she was going to get some car accident insurance money. The one guy I liked was a very calm gentle nice man who broke loose my frozen shoulder that had been locked up with muscle spasms for 3 years. It never came back. I used to joke that i wanted to marry my chiro because he fixed my shoulder. Was it TMS? I dunno. I just know it is gone and my chiro only charged $35 per session. He was also the one who taught me cross-tissue massage for healing tendons with adhesions (I'm a tendon ripper).
i guess that makes me a bit on the fence about chiropractic. |
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Opinions about chiropractic as related to TMS?
