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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
 Posted - 10/18/2007 : 13:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by stanfr
I have been convinced for months now beyond all doubt that my current symptoms are psychological in origin, but despite following the Sarno routine religiously, i continue to struggle. I strongly suspect that there is more to this disorder than simple subconcious recognition.
Trust me Stanfr, I can relate to you regarding this issue. Yes, sometimes- as in our cases- a mere recognition of what is taking place may not be quite enough and Dr. Sarno even admits to that. Hang in their dude, we are in the same boat, but sometimes on different ends.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 15:06:57
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quote:
Originally posted by stanfr
but i also agree that pontificating about TMS/Sarno does no good.
It may seemed to the untrained eye that I pontificate at times on this forum, but to the old TMS war horses they will see through what I am doing. Although I hate to give myself away - as some people like to use other people's words against them when it is convenient - I am going attempt here to reveal some of my motivations behind posting on this forum in the way that I do.
Think for a moment of planting a seed. When that seed goes into the ground and is watered, up sprouts a plant and then eventually that plant will bear fruit which is both delicious and healthy to eat. But some seeds can produce poisonous produce which can cause great harm if consumed.
When people post on this forum they are - in a sense- planting seeds into other people's minds which over time will also germinate and produce fruit. Some, sadly enough, plant seeds of doubt on this board and it has disastrous results. Since recovery from TMS is dependent on full belief in the TMS diagnosis and treatment program, any seeds of doubt that are planted and allowed to grow will impede the reader's progress. In my own life, I am very much aware of this. I cannot afford to doubt because I know what happens. I either am 100% for Dr. Sarno or nothing. Even the smallest molecule of doubt will be a disaster for me personally. Thus, I become very annoyed when people start planting their poison seeds on this board and I react quite strongly. These strong reactions are, in affect, acting as a buffer between me and the naysayers. If I sound harsh I am not attacking anyone personally, I am merely protecting myself. Like I said, I cannot afford to doubt and will thus - in order to protect my belief in the TMS diagnosis and treatment program- come out rather strongly against those who attempt to sway my belief. Please don't take it personally, but your doubting words can do me great harm and I thus am compelled to fight back.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 10/18/2007 15:10:16 |
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miche
Canada
283 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 15:44:46
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Manisfestation of my latent goodism ? because I submitted an article with the sole intention of showing that Dr Mercola believed in Sarno?
I am flabbergasted ! mostly at how everything is analysed to death, even the most trivial comment, sometimes an apple is just an apple Shawn, I have tried to help some people on this board by relating my experiences, it always stems from my desire to help others who suffers, if you want to attibute such behavior to inner rage, then perhaps you and Kevin should question your desire to show up others as complete nincompoops with your condescending attitudes and your desires to see inner motives in everything, making fun of people for their beliefs is always demeaning . I am always open to rational discussions where other's opinions are respected and if disagreed with it is done with respect. Stanfr , the icon if you would kindly check is meant as approval , it is not a smirk, forgive my French but I used it right after I wrote that I APPROVE OF ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ANSWERED WITH AN OPEN MIND, I have never smirked in my whole life and again do not understand why so many of you are looking for any reason to attack, you are not attacking EFT YOU ARE ATTACKING ME, MAKING FUN OF ME AND I RESPECT MYSELF ENOUGH TO GET OFF THIS BOARD PERMENTLY, YOU CAN ALL ARGUE TILL THE END OF TIMES FOR ALL I CARE, THE DESIRE TO BE RIGHT ALL THE TIME THAT SOME OF YOU EXIBIT IS INFENTILE TO SAY THE LEAST, I AM NOT EDUCATED COMPARED TO SOME OF YOU BUT I KNOW THAT EVERYTHING IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE AND THAT NOT EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD IS WILLING TO SEE THE SHADES OF GREY, CSMOON, LIDGE, JOHN THANK YOU FOR SEING MY POST FOR WHAT IT IS , THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD, HOWEVER IT SEEMS THAT SHAWN HAS MADE IT HIS MISSION TO REPLACE SOMEONE ELSE WHO DROVE PEOPLE OFF THIS BOARD BY HIS KNOW IT ALL ATTITUDE. WHAT DOES HAVING ONE THOUSAND POSTS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING SHAWN? DOES IT MEAN THAT YOU HAVE MASTERED RIGIDITY TO A FINE ART? |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 15:59:31
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Shawn - if you can't handle any shades of gray or molecules of doubt -that is completely your right and your choice and I respect that but this probably isn't the place for you. People find this board in desperation and are doing the best they can at the time to recover somehow and get some answers and have a semblance of a normal life again. They are responsible to themselves to find what they think is best for them, they have no obligations to me, you or anyone else. TMS theory is a great thing but it isn't perfect and there are some holes in the anecdotal evidence and patient testimonials that don't account for the reality of TMS. For me, alot more was required than to just simply follow Sarno's 3 rules in order to have a complete recovery. I thought it was a great starting point for me but thats all it was.
You may want to explore why you can't deal with any doubt? Thats like being in a marriage and not allowing yourself to ever consider divorce or even be mad at your significant other. You have to be able to look at other theories, methods etc... and use your mind to think through it, take the good and discard the bad.
Little in this world is all right or all wrong.....whether we are talking about Sarno or anything else. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 17:04:42
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| Miche, i apologize if you saw my response as a personal attack. Looking back at the response i can see how one might have mnisinterpreted it that way: my initial response was meant as a reaction to Mercolas' quotes, nothing you said, and i should have made that clear. When you responded with 'approval' (it still looks like a smug face to me!) to "open-mindedness" I take this as implying that i am NOT open-minded. I don't see how i can interpret your response any other way. But again, you were just reacting to the way you read prior posts. I would suggest not taking any of this too personally, as your numerous capitalized words seems to suggest that you have. Cheers-S |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2007 : 19:43:22
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I think you all need to take a chill pill, a huge one and that. You confirmed by prediction - that the words I write would be turned on me. I am staying on this board because I believe in TMS and, despite my slower recovery than I would like, I still have insights as well as much to learn about this syndrom. It appears that one is punished here for being truthful and honest. But I know that the real source of people's anger has nothing to do with me so I am chil-laxing and not taking it personally this time around.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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mamaboulet
181 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 06:39:35
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| fear of doubt is kinda like fear of pain. It restricts your life. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 10:04:33
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quote:
Originally posted by mamaboulet
fear of doubt is kinda like fear of pain. It restricts your life.
This certainly make sense to me and probably to many other forum members. In my own life I have to fight fear and doubt all of the time, and in doing so I am following the doctor's orders. But Dr. Sarno clearly and emphatically states in is lecture tape that you have believe in what he says 100% or you will not recover. In fact, he is so emphatic about it, his words jump out at you from the screen when I am watching it. It is almost scary. Now that is quite a strong statement for him to make. Too strong for some on this forum and they get in a huff. Is Dr. Sarno- a person who was been doing this for over 3 decades - wrong? There is no need to get angry at Dr. Sarno and start casting doubt on his work. In fact, this is a clever strategy of the brain to keep one distracted from what is really taking place. Here is what Dr. Sopher says in his book "To Be or Not To Be... Pain-Free":
On the flip side, it is important not to be discouraged if symptoms
arise during the course of an activity. It simply means that more
mental work must be done. It is easy for fear and its compatriot,
doubt, to creep in. “Maybe it isn’t TMS, maybe I do have a physical
problem” are common thoughts. The best advice is to simply
acknowledge this fear as part of the old conditioning, of the brain’s
strategy to have you believe there is a physical problem.
A common question I hear daily is, “What should I do when I
have pain, especially a lot of pain?” Here people acknowledge that it
can be very difficult to ignore it and carry on. First, you must talk to
your brain and remind yourself that you are physically fine! Tell your
brain that you are on to its game, that you know about the reservoir of
rage. Like Dorothy discovering the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain,
you won’t be fooled! The pain is not because you’ve done something
that you are incapable of or that you are so feeble or fragile. Try to
pay it as little attention as possible; the goal is for it to distract you
and keep your attention and focus on pain, rather than on what may be
in the unconscious. Many become obsessed with their pain—they
must learn to shift their focus (this is the re-programming, or reconditioning
process). Try not to give in! Try to remain active, doing
the activities that you enjoy.
What about medication? As medication is a physical modality, it
cannot fix the problem. This fact is essential to assimilate. As I’ve
stated earlier, use of medications can, in some circumstances,
exacerbate the problem. Having said this, I do believe there are
certain occasions when use of over-the-counter pain medications may
be done without adding fuel to the fire. It is acceptable to take
medications like acetaminophen, aspirin, ibuprofen and naproxen if
you tell yourself, “This is not fixing the problem. This may take the
edge off or ease some of my discomfort while I continue to do battle
with my brain.” Again, remember that frequent use of even these
medications can worsen the situation, but used appropriately may be
acceptable.
For reasons that are not entirely clear to both Dr. Sarno and
myself, there is great variability in the time required for symptom
resolution. This gets back to the notion of doubt. If someone states
they truly believe that TMS is the problem, that they have been doing
the mental homework and yet are distressed that their symptoms
persist, they may question whether they have TMS. This has the
elements of a catch-22. If you begin to doubt there is a psychological
cause, that there could be a physical cause, then the work is undone
and the brain’s strategy of creating a physical distraction will triumph.
This is part of what I refer to as The Calendar Phenomenon. By this
time, everyone may know of someone whose symptoms vanished
immediately after reading the book or shortly after seeing a physician
trained in TMS treatment. So, an expectation is created in their mind
that their symptoms should recede soon after incorporating this
philosophy. They look at the calendar and become upset as days and
weeks go by. This is where I tell people to look back at their
personalities. The calendar phenomenon is another manifestation of
perfectionist tendencies – it is self-imposed pressure to succeed and
succeed quickly. If they can recognize this aspect of their personality and add it to their “list” of sources of stress, relief will be on the way.
Fear, doubt, the calendar phenomenon and the failure to think
accurately are examples of some of the internal obstacles to healing.
Several external obstacles bear mention.
#1 You have read this book and become convinced that this
approach makes sense. When you mention it to your physician,
he/she either dismisses it out of hand or nods indulgently, and advises a traditional regimen including medication, physical therapy, etc.
#2 You have read this book and become convinced that this
approach makes sense. When you mention it to your friends, family
and/or co-workers, they look at you as if you have lost your mind.
They, too, may nod indulgently and then recommend a physician,
practitioner, medication, herb, etc.
#3 You have read this book and become convinced that this
approach makes sense. When you pick up a magazine and read an
article discussing symptoms like yours, there is no mention of TMS as
a possible cause. Or maybe, just maybe, there is a brief mention of
Dr. Sarno’s work with TMS, but other quoted sources dismiss it out
of hand. As you trust the members of the media to do their homework
and provide accurate, complete information, you begin to wonder
whether TMS is for real.
These scenarios occur every day. They may contribute to the
conditioning that allows the pain to persist. Even in my own office,
when I am introducing one of my established patients to TMS
concepts, they may get angry or look at me as if I have two heads.
You see, they have come in unsuspecting. They have come in to see
me for evaluation of some physical symptom and did not expect to
hear that it may have a psychological cause. Some are delighted,
enthusiastic and quite willing to think outside of the box. To the
others I explain that I can only expose them to this different way of
thinking, that I cannot make them believe it. I will certainly try to
make my case and be convincing, but it is ultimately up to them to
decide.
Perhaps when TMS theory and treatment becomes embraced by
the medical mainstream, more people will be open to this way of
thinking about themselves. For those that do, it is extremely
gratifying to see them succeed at getting rid of their pain and
improving their quality of life. Trite as it sounds, I became a
physician to help others, to help them when they are ill and keep them
well. I am saddened when people refuse to accept the possibility of a
psychological cause and so continue to suffer.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 10:12:02
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
Shawn - if you can't handle any shades of gray or molecules of doubt -that is completely your right and your choice and I respect that but this probably isn't the place for you.
You are completely mistaken John. As I stated in the previous posting, Dr Sarno is emphatic that one has to 100% believe in the diagnosis and the treatment or they will not recover, period. He is really strong on this point in his taped lecture. You may disagree on some minor points, but the overall message has to be fully embraced. I am not giving my own opinion here, but merely citing Dr. Sarno's words. My opinion on this point does not count for anything.........
Dr. Mercola and his ilk are crakpots and charlatans. Dr. Sarno's work- as he states in his book- is not alternative medicine, but is in fact based on sound clinical practice.
Bring on the doubts and I will continue to fundamentalistically insist that black is black and white is white. If that is a problem for people then take it up with Dr. Sarno, not me.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2007 : 18:27:48
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First off, mercola doesn't claim to have the cure all for chronic pain and his practice doesn't focus exclusively on chronic pain issues.
So what if the FDA sanctioned him? He made a mistake on his webpage and corrected it once the FDA warned him. They would do the same thing to Sarno if they could find a loophole to sanction him. They don't like anyone who goes against the grain, or poses a threat to them.
If we all had doctors like Dr. Mercola who were sincerely interested in helping people there would be far less chronic health problems in this country.
That being said I think Mercola does go overboard at times but I'd rather have him as my primary care doc than 99% of the other doctors in this country |
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golden_girl
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2007 : 21:05:07
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This is the first time I've ever posted here but I've been sporadically reading the forum for some time. I came across EFT before I came across TMS and I believe them to be the same sides of the same coin. I think if you believe EFT to be balancing an energy system in your body, you're misled, and unfortunately this is the first thing you learn about EFT. However, if you were to actually look and read (should the fancy take you) about EFT, you will realise it actually appears to be another form of journalling - perhaps even a better and quicker way. I believe that it may well be a way of talking to your subconscious and conscious minds at the same time, in a rhythmic pattern whilst tapping on your body. Many people who have looked into this far more than I have likened it to 'Mesmerism' and to 'Pattern Interrupts' in NLP. I'm not an expert by any means, but to jump on some sort of bandwagon and miss the whole point seems utterly ridiculous to me. The whole point of EFT is to find patterns in why you think how you think, to get to core issues, to forgive those who you feel have wronged you, to let go of the negative emotions and ultimately, hopefully, end up at a better place physically and emotionally. That emotions cause disease/pain/anxiety etc seems to be well accepted here. So to completely dismiss it out of sight without further knowledge, to me, seems remiss, and as has been pointed out myriad times in many places, the whole method of EFT is given out free on the EFT website, with a bucketload of case studies on the website and newsletters et al.
The author of the Freedom from Fibromyalgia book, a doctor, also now works in conjunction with an EFT "Master Practitioner" (whether you believe that to carry any weight or not) - basically, I'm not an EFT advertisement but to call it a placebo in the same sense as a drug or a physical therapy is completely missing the point.
"F.E.A.R
Forgive Everyone And Remember
For Everything A Reason", Ian Brown |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2007 : 12:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by golden_girl
This is the first time I've ever posted here but I've been sporadically reading the forum for some time. I came across EFT before I came across TMS and I believe them to be the same sides of the same coin.
No, they are not. Use the search feature of this forum to read more messages about EFT and why it is counter to TMS treatment.
The bottom line is that there is no evidence the 'tapping' part of EFT has any impact on the success of treatment, and in fact it is the skill of the therapist that is key. |
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golden_girl
United Kingdom
128 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2007 : 12:40:52
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It's actually also a self-help method.
"F.E.A.R.
Forgive Everyone And Remember
For Everything A Reason",
Ian Brown |
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article from Dr Mercola
