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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
 Posted - 08/17/2007 : 09:22:29
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Edited by - shawnsmith on 09/03/2007 16:05:00 |
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scoob48
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 10:14:09
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I have thought that I may get something out of my pain at times. I think it's a mixed thing. For example, a few years ago I was about to start a job at a bookstore. I really thought I wanted to work there; I love books, and thought it would be nice to help my husband by adding to the family income. But the closer I got to my first day at work, the more my lower back hurt, till I was on the floor in pain. I figured my back was telling me that I really didn't want this job, so I quit. My pain went away instantly!
And that's not the first time that's happened. It's usually when I'm doing something I think is good, but unconsciously don't really want to. So, the pain both tells me how I'm really feeling, with the secondary gain of getting me out of that unpleasant thing. (Because I can't work if I'm in that much pain!)
I've learned to listen to my back, and my gut, and whatever other body part is reacting at the time. I actually see it as a somewhat positive thing--at least in that it gives me such a strong messsage that I can't ignore it. But I wish I could just know my own mind, so I wouldn't have to have the pain.
Dawn |
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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 14:16:42
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Shawn:
My wife and son sometimes accused me of using the pain to get out of doing things. Half jokingly - but the other half was somewhat there too. My son wanted me to ride bikes - and at the time I wasn't up for it...so I said no. I got the doubtful look on that one.
But in the end, they both know I was in some bad pain and I was working through it. So I guess it wasn't too bad for me personally.
Do I think there is any secondary gain that I WANT? Consciously - Heck no - I'd much rather feel great than have this crap.
If you agree with your wife on the secondary gain issue - then perhaps you need to look at your actions and whether or not YOU are using the pain as an excuse not to do something. It's easy to go - "I'm not feeling 100% so I'm gonna take it easy."
My example that could be second guessed: I spent a lot of time in bed the first two weeks. I even used that as an excuse / reason to work from home for a while. Could I have gone into the office. YES. Would I have been more uncomfortable there. YES. So, let me ask you - was working from home with a laptop in bed the first week secondary gain - or just practical to minimize the pain? Hmmm... Depends on who you ask. I say practical.
In the end, I try not to obsess on the details or be too self critical - I just try to keep focused on the process.
Dan |
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ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 15:08:37
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I've thought about this a lot, too. My wife, who has had TMS for six years now, but can't accept it, uses it for secondary gain, though consciously she would say she wants to end the pain, and even got a spinal fusion operation (in May, 2006) without my knowledge and against my urging, which didn't heal her. Her lower back pain reappeared in her hip (symptom imperative). Our story from 2005 is at: http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=766
She had a rough childhood, with her parents divorcing when she was 6. Her mother was an alcoholic, married two abusive stepfathers, whom she still hates in her mind, and she had to leave the family at 15. Her mother always put her men first, and Julie was neglected and abused.
In our situation, right after we discovered Dr. Sarno and TMS, which I saw as the solution to her pain, and she rejected angrily, much to my surprise and dismay as she'd already been through 2 and a half years of conventional and alternative medical treatments which did no good, she left to visit her mother for three weeks. She and her mom both turned against me, and her mom encouraged divorce.
We've been apart ever since, despite my best attempts to reconcile us and love her unconditionally, and I've been supporting her from my retirement income all this time. Her mom, with whom she has a close relationship now, and is what I see as her chief TMS enabler, wrote me an incredibly negative email back when I sent her a copy of Healing Back Pain, and asked for her help with getting Julie to see a TMS doctor, in hopes that an official diagnosis could change her mind and lead her to accept the diagnosis.
Now, over three years later, her mother gives her lots of attention and emotional support, which she craved as a child but didn't get, and I believe this is the secondary gain that she gets from her TMS, a close and loving relationship with her mother, with her anger projected onto me, even though I believe the childhood abuse and neglect to be the source of her repressed rage, which is all too frightening for her to dig up. And she also gets the secondary gain of me supporting her while totally rejecting our marriage.
We are finally in divorce proceedings now.
Ralph |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2007 : 20:45:26
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I am sorry more people have not responded to this topic as it is of more importance than most of us on this board are willing to admit.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." It's all you need to know in order to recover. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 08/20/2007 05:53:38 |
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n/a
374 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 08:39:25
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When people talk about secondary gain relating to a physical or emotional condition it is usually to suggest exaggeration. They may even accuse someone of weaseling out of their responsibilities or malingering, as you say, Shawn. Many of us will have been on the receiving end of such accusations and it's not pleasant to have an all too real condition belittled.
Some people, as we know, will never be open to to exploring the possibility that their physical condition is tied in with their emotions and suggestions that they are deriving some secondary gain from their, as they see it, wholly physical condition, will have to get used to people around them regarding their situation with suspicion.
However, for those people who do accept they have TMS, secondary gain can be something positive. A condition like severe TMS. is disabling and during the recovery period, a person may be forced to make changes in their life that they would have believed unthinkable if they were not in pain - like giving up full-time work or changing jobs. In essence - there is secondary
gain.
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 12:30:41
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Ralph- Sorry to here that after all the time and energy you have invested in trying to help your wife see the light has essentially failed and she is dumping her repressed feelings onto you and making you the scapegoat. That must be extremely aggravating, frustrating and sad. Ultimately now you have to take care of yourself.
Regarding secondary gain, I think it is possible to have some of that going on but I think the main point that Dr Sarno makes that the symptoms are NOT for a secondary gain but rather the primary gain of defence towards frightening emotions in the unconscious that are trying to become conscious is correct. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 13:28:03
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miehnesor
This thread is not disputing what Dr. Sarno says regarding his ideas about the intitial cause of the pain, but only inquiring regarding to what extent secondary gain issues play in the perpetuation of the pain. His whole discussion of worker's compensation and insurance companies seems to indicate that there ae secondary again issues and he is reluctant to work with people on worker's compensation as they have this crutch to lean on.
Here is what Dr. Sarno says in "Healing Back Pain."
"Elements of secondary gain are often identified in my patients but they are by no means the primary psychological factors at work. To attribute to secondary gain such importance is to ignore the real problem—repressed feelings of all kinds—and make the equally egregious mistake of failing to recognize the true physiology of the pain, that it is not due to a persistent structural abnormality but to a psychophysiologic process, as described in this book."
What do you think?
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 13:54:07
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Ralph, I think your story is the real crux of this Post. I remember your initial frustration and struggle with trying to get your wife to open her mind to Sarno's treatment possibilities.
I second Meihnesor's feelings, and want you to know that I send you my good wishes. I am glad that at least you found Sarno.
Perhaps your wife really is accomplishing her unc goal of getting her mother's attention at last.
Beth |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 21:42:58
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Shawn- Can secondary gain perpetuate TMS symptoms? I have a hard time with that one I have to say but i've seen in the literature situations where folks claim physical ailments as an excuse to avoid something.
What may be more important for you is the feeling towards your wife when she accuses you of secondary gain. What would your feelings be about that one. I don't know about you but I would be pretty pissed if my wife did that to me. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 09:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by miehnesor
Shawn- Can secondary gain perpetuate TMS symptoms?
Yes, I believe they can perpetuate but is not the initial reason for the onset of the pain. The question I am seeking to explore, however, is do you think that secondary gain issues are in operation in the perpetuation of your pain. Remember, I am not talking about onset, which is another issue, but perpetuation of pain symptoms despite going through the program.
I would love to hear your take on this.
Any expressed anger at my wife my just be a clever ploy on my part to get her to back off with the threat of enducing more pain if she does not.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 08/21/2007 09:33:10 |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 12:28:32
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Shawn- I don't know the answer to your question; but, I would say that from what you have shared that there may be some issues with your wife that you need to explore some more. First of all as Anne has mentioned it is angering to hear people close to you claim you are benefiting from secondary gain through your symptoms. Actually I find it a bit surprising that your wife, someone who supposedly knows about TMS, would make these accusations.
There are many examples of TMS members who had issues with their spouses that resulted in continued TMS symptoms until they directly addressed the problems. (Penny, Suz, and Laura's cases come to mind). I would guess that in most of these cases unconscious rage is triggered by unhealthy dynamics in the relationship and that is what sustains the symptoms.
I think it is common for us to have unconscious anger/rage to those people in our lives that we are close to and that we are dependent on. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 12:36:48
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miehnesor
The topic on this thread is not regarding issues between me and my wife. The topic is what part does secondary gain issues play in the perpetuation of pain symptoms. I just mentioned my wife as an example. Do people with TMS extract some kind of gain by keeping their symptoms? Yes or no?
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 13:32:18
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Shawn: To answer your question - The only secondary gain I can see in keeping the pain is that people are afraid of the repressed emotions and by keeping their pain - they are essentially choosing physical pain over emotional pain.
My mom is a prime example. She's had a rough childhood, marriage etc. She has many emotional scars - and despite having pain syndromes throughout her body for many years, she won't embrace TMS as the cause. (despite my attempts) I can see that she is AS afraid if not more so of delving into the emotional pain as she is of the physical pain.
Some people just don't want to face the music. To put it another way, they would rather hurt physically than unveil their troubled emotions and accept full accountability for the pain in the first place and the responsibility of curing themselves. It's a tough pill to swallow for some.
Can it be called a secondary gain if you are just agreeing with TMS - to continue to repress the emotions by allowing yourself to be distracted? Hmmm...
Dan |
Edited by - Webdan65 on 08/21/2007 13:34:18 |
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carbar
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 19:36:15
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In the past, there were a lot of secondary gains with the pain. I kind of agree with Dawn that it seemed to serve as a signal for me not to try things out of the comfort zone. It was a good excuse. Since I came down with this while still in HIGH SCHOOL there were so many new things that I didn't try in high school and college because I was afraid of the pain, while there was probly also some underlying fear of failure/embarssment regarding the experience itself.
Since I'm trying to kick my TMS acne right now, I'd say there is a secondary gain to this symptom. Since I'm mildly insecure about my looks and weight, having ugly, painful zits on my face is kind of a distraction from these other insecurities. Or maybe it's a manifestation of that rage about not being prettier, thinner, raised with healthier habits that the inner child feels? Yes, my inner child is sure pissed about a ****ty only-child upbringing from a workaholic father and a depressed mother.
Also, guess there's some issues with intimate relationships. Kind of scary terrain for me, so if I've got spots on my face and I'm feeling undesirable I'm not sending those signals out to folks to come chat me up at the party, right?
Sigh -- a depressing revelation. Good topic, though. Thanks for all inspiring responses.
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 05:22:09
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I used to develop severe ecema symptoms in anticipation of gym class and would be excused from participating, much to my great relief. As I look back on it, the initial reason for the onset of symptoms was my fear of competing and getting hurt were the main factors, but the symptoms also served a secondary function of allowing me to sit out of gym class.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
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Penny
USA
364 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2007 : 21:17:49
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
The topic on this thread is not regarding issues between me and my wife.
Shawn ... are you sure?
quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
Do people with TMS extract some kind of gain by keeping their symptoms? Yes or no?
From my experience, I say absolutely YES! While I really dislike the pain my brain gives me, in hindsight I know see very clearly how pain and Sx have served to remove me from situations that would've enflamed my subconsious even more. My pain in the past has made me bedridden removed from those I love the most, those I suspected the least as TMS triggers.
Last year, my husband and children and I went to the beach for a long weekend. I had such mental fog, and unexpressed emotions, even though I was preparing for a nice getaway, I ended up completely shutting down, unable to walk and play with them on the beach. I stayed in bed ... in hell. This was a year ago, before I even considered that my marriage patterns were contributing to my problem. You (and several other forum members) helped me a lot earlier this year, (I think it was a sex thread) to realize and ask myself some tougher questions. For this I am deeply thankful.
Since April and after months of revisiting some unpleasant emotions with my husband, he and I are doing much better and have a healthier relationship. I am out of denial and accept that he and "Us" are less than perfect. For about 9 months I worked on accepting the "Me" being less than perfect, now my husband and marriage are nearly caught up and all are equally messed up and crummy, but wonderful at times. The good, the bad, the ugly ... the REAL!!!!
>|< Penny
"Feeling will get you closer to the truth of who you are than thinking."
~ Eckhart Tolle
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Edited by - Penny on 09/04/2007 21:24:54 |
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