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Amy
USA
18 Posts |
 Posted - 08/16/2007 : 18:11:41
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| Could sleep apnea be related to TMS? I did have a recent sleep study and was dx with sleep apnea. Apparently, I have very little rem sleep due to snoring. Of course the lack of rem sleep means that I am not getting enough restorative/healing sleep which also contributes to a pain cycle. The doctor just prescried a CPAP machine. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 19:28:22
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| I dont know much about sleep apnea, but i know that septoplasty is often used as surgery to help sleep apnea patients (i had a septoplasty in Feb to relieve chronic nightime congestion which kept me awake) I now know for sure the congestion and sinus colds were TMS/AOS. I prefer not to use the term 'TMS' or for that matter even 'TMS' equivalent, since that refers specifically to the standard bck/neck pain syndromes and theoretically oxygen-deprived tissue. But, anytime sleep is disrupted, i'd say a psychosomatic syndrome is a good candidate to consider! |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 20:57:08
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| My husband has sleep apnea and uses a CPAP. Some nights he falls asleep watching tv and doesn't put the device on, which leaves him feeling much more fatigue and "brain fog" the next day. He had a surgery that removes the tonsils, uvula and part of the soft palate to open his airway more, which reduced the number of events per night, but didn't make any improvement in how he feels. But the CPAP definitely helps him. It would probably be good for you to try the CPAP and see what it does for you. Untreated apnea is hard on the heart, over time. |
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kelvin
USA
103 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 21:21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Amy
Could sleep apnea be related to TMS? I did have a recent sleep study and was dx with sleep apnea. Apparently, I have very little rem sleep due to snoring. Of course the lack of rem sleep means that I am not getting enough restorative/healing sleep which also contributes to a pain cycle. The doctor just prescried a CPAP machine.
As someone who has lived with sleep apnea for many years and who has seen tremendous success in applying Dr. Sarno's treatment to TMS symptoms - I do not think this is related to TMS.
I will say this, using the CPAP made me realize that I didn't know what real sleep was and I am amazed at what a difference it made. I could go on and on, but for the sake of brevity, I will just say that once you discover what real sleep is you will never want to do without your CPAP.
Kelvin
My favorite TMS files and links http://www.etex.net/kelving (may not work with FireFox browser) |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 21:47:48
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| hmmmm...Kelvin; if you've read any of my posts you know im no TMS purist, and as i said i know little about apnea, but it does sound to me like a classic psychogenic symptom (obstructive at least; muscles 'relaxing' 'at night') you had TMS, wouldn't surprise me if the two things are related. CPAP is no different than surgery. I had no success applying Sarno's techniques to my nasal congestion/lack of sleep; I had a septoplasty which 'corrected' my nasal congestion, and enabled me to sleep, but that doesn't change the fact that i am now 110% convinced the congestion was a TMS equivalent. Knowing what i know now, i may have had more success in treating it w/o surgery, but as ive repeatedly pointed out over the last few weeks, psychosomatic disorders may require a broad approach, not necessarily Sarno 101. Something to consider. |
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Amy
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 21:59:04
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The cpap machine is being delivered on Saturday. I figure that after insurance, my out of pocket will be a bit over $100. If I could finally feel rested in the morning and not have that "brain fog." it will be a small price to pay. If I am not getting rem sleep, then I am not getting resoritive healing sleep. I suspect that this would make my TMS pain even worse.
My husband had the throat surgery (adenoids uvula removed) about 7 years ago, but still sounds like a chainsaw. I could hear him stopping breathing. When he did a repeat sleep study three years ago, he had ove 90 apnea events per hour. They put the mask on him and he couldn't tolerate it. When I went for my appointment, I dragged him along. When we were at the sleep clinic, I made him make an appointment. This time, before the sleep study, he went in and worked with the respiratory therapist finding a mask that he could tolerate and then went through a three hour desensitization process. The following night, he went in for the sleep study and was able to wear the mask all night. |
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kelvin
USA
103 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 22:24:33
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quote:
Originally posted by stanfr
hmmmm...Kelvin; if you've read any of my posts you know im no TMS purist, and as i said i know little about apnea, but it does sound to me like a classic psychogenic symptom (obstructive at least; muscles 'relaxing' 'at night') you had TMS, wouldn't surprise me if the two things are related. CPAP is no different than surgery. I had no success applying Sarno's techniques to my nasal congestion/lack of sleep; I had a septoplasty which 'corrected' my nasal congestion, and enabled me to sleep, but that doesn't change the fact that i am now 110% convinced the congestion was a TMS equivalent. Knowing what i know now, i may have had more success in treating it w/o surgery, but as ive repeatedly pointed out over the last few weeks, psychosomatic disorders may require a broad approach, not necessarily Sarno 101. Something to consider.
Thanks for the insight. If I could figure out how to talk to my block breathing passage or journal in my sleep I would definitely give it a try. 
Seriously, though, I guess I am sort of a Sarno purist just because I tried what he recommended and it worked. While I always think that any physical symptom I have is most likely psychological, if that approach does not work I will go to my regular MD.
But, not everything is TMS. Last year I keep having constant sinus infections and I just knew it was TMS. Turns out I had an oral fisture caused by a tooth being pulled and creating a hole through my upper gum into my sinus. After going to an Ear Nose and Throat specialist and having surgery, the infections cleared up and I haven’t had one since. I know it is possible that TMS might have made me more prone to infections, but after seeing the CT of my sinuses it was clear to me what the problems was.
I have only been aware of Sarno's writing and TMS for about year and a half, but it my experience that if something is a TMS symptom I can shake it off pretty quickly by simply looking for the psychological cause and using Sarno’s treatment. If that doesn’t remove the symptom then I will consider the possibility of a physical cause.
Kelvin
My favorite TMS files and links http://www.etex.net/kelving (may not work with FireFox browser) |
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Amy
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2007 : 23:41:22
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Kevin, I agree with you. While many doctors have good intent, it doesn't mean that I feel comfortable following ANYONE blindly. Doctors a human and do make mistakes. I do believe a lot of what Sarno says, however I do have a concern that EVERYTHING may be attributed to TMS. This can be at the best frustrating but at the worse result in a dangerous delay for treating a non Tms problem. Kevin, I also agree that if the symptoms persist despite following the program, I would also get it checked. I would hate to see that Sarnos interesting and apparanly successful program turns into a cure for EVERYTHING under the sun and makes it more difficult to obtain credibitiy in the medical community.
Right now, I am at the beginning stages of this journey. I haver read curring back pain and am 1/2 way through divided minds. I just started to journel yesterday |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 17:58:44
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Thanks for the insight. If I could figure out how to talk to my block breathing passage or journal in my sleep I would definitely give it a try.
Yes, exactly! That's why i had so little success in dealing with my chronic sinus 'colds' and nightime congestion! mindbody is way bigger than TMS as described in 'healing back paine' etc. TDM tries to widen the approach, but quite frankly i think the theory needs better definition and more practical approaches for dealing with TMS 'equivalents' such as dermatologic conditions, allergies, etc.
Hence, my recent posts discussing 'problems' with TMS theory. But that doesn't change the fact that these conditions are probably psychogenic. I wouldn't dare diagnose you, i only warn that determining whether something is psychogenic by the efficacy of 'thinking psychological' is not a valid approach--and ive been a TMS 'student' for over 10 yrs, so i have you beat 
My advice to determine whether something is physical/psychological
is this: educate yourself extensively about the condition. If symptoms are not logically related to claimed causes, thagt's a red flag. If symptoms respond to everyday stress, that's a red flag. If symptoms metamorphosize, that's a red flag. If you are 'cured' but then later develop some other suspicious aliment--thats a BIG red flag. I could go on, but i think you get the point. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 18:28:53
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It's certainly difficult to apply the same strategies for other things as is done for pain. I ended up having to deal with my dandruff by just ignoring it, but if it hadn't responded to that, I'd be pretty clueless about the next step.
One thing to keep in mind is that if things are happening while you are asleep/unconscious, you can work with your mind during the day in a focused way, giving yourself messages about how you will not experience the symptoms, and how you are going to work on your emotions for a period of time now, while awake, so you gradually won't have symptoms while asleep. I don't know if this would work any better, but I sometimes tell myself I'm going to have dreams about certain emotions like this, and it seems to work. Worth a try anyway.
The affect (emotional) symptoms don't necessarily respond to the pain strategies either, although they sometimes do!
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2007 : 18:59:47
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| I agree with ACL. I ppersonally suspect that nightime symptoms are often specifically designed to keep us from dreaming, cause God forbid that we remember our dreams, which are just LOADED with unconcious emotions, often in symbolic form. I know this was the case with my CTS, both arms went numb at night. Or so i thought. Actually, they went numb the moment i woke up, or just before, since that is when i was most likely to recall my dreams. Solution: i tried my best to ignore the numb arms, focus on remembering and writing down my dreams. A few days later, numbness went away. |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2007 : 02:05:15
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quote:
My advice to determine whether something is physical/psychological
is this: educate yourself extensively about the condition. If symptoms are not logically related to claimed causes, thagt's a red flag. If symptoms respond to everyday stress, that's a red flag. If symptoms metamorphosize, that's a red flag. If you are 'cured' but then later develop some other suspicious aliment--thats a BIG red flag. I could go on, but i think you get the point.
Stanfr, I don't want to sound like I'm disagreeing with your thinking on sorting out whether a symptom is physical/psychological, because your thoughts on that are very good, but I just have to say that as for sleep apnea, I have done a lot of reading about it, as well as being my husband's and mother's (both w/ sleep apnea) health care coordinator (meaning that I personally dealt with all of their doctors at each visit, so I know all the details of their symptoms and treatment) and it seems highly unlikely to me that their sleep apnea, which involved blockage of the throat is/was TMS. I've seen how weight changes affect the severity of the apnea, and how when my mother's health deteriorated and she lost muscle tone all over, her apnea became much worse.
Because there can be serious consequences to leaving sleep apnea untreated, I don't want people who read this thread to get the idea that they should just stop using a CPAP and focus on TMS. If they do the TMS work and find that sleep apnea is one of the symptoms that improves for them, great; then they should have another sleep study done to see if they're getting enough oxygen to their brain and if it's safe for them to stop using a CPAP. |
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Amy
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2007 : 06:34:51
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Little Bird, your response makes a lot of sense to me. Today, the CPAP machine is being delivered. I am hopeful that once I become accostomed to using the machine, I will finally feel more rested in the morning. I would think that just having more restoritive/healing rem sleep would also help with some of the pain. I definitely feel that Sarno is on the right track that repessed feelings create anger/tension/frustration which translates to muscle pain and contributes to the pain cycle. I recently started Journeling. It is an ineresting process which puts words to those fleeting thoughts and feelings. When I wrote about my childhood, I really did experince a few moments of sadness which really suprised me. Now, when I my trapezoids, shoulder blades, plantar fasciitis symptoms and back start in, I just try to tell myself that there is NO PHYSICAL cause for the pain and that my brain is just "playing with my head" no pun intended. I am just tryng to apply his principles fully enough to work for me without following blindly that EVERYTHING under the sun is TMS. For instance, I know that he feels arthritis is TMS, but I have a hard time believing that when my knee LOCKS and then I get a horrible pain followd by feeling the kneecap crackle and slide over the bones and then the knee cracks once agian(painful) while it unlocks, is due to TMS. I also can't imagine that TMS makes my knee sublux and dislocate while walking. Honestly, If my neck, back, foot and carpal tunnel symptomes were either cured or dramatically reduced, I could easily live with the knee stuff.
I don't mean to sound as if I am disagreeing with the philosophy behind TMS. I am very new to this theory and am trying to make sense of it. Part of my personality (whithout getting Freudian about it) is to never follow blindly but the really think things through (over analyze) and then take from it what makes sense to me.
I had never even heard of Sarmo and TMS 9 days ago. I do want to mention a maybe small success. Last night, I did not sleep with the night splint on my foot for Plantar Fascitis or the wrist splint on my right wrist for carpal tunnel. My foot still does hurt, but sleeping without the splint did not result in the pain increasing through the roof as it usually would have. I did not wake with a numb and tingling hand. It is too early to draw any real concluslions but I am hopefull that this has something to do with me gaining Knowledge.
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Garyland
2 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 00:12:28
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Hi,
I am new to this forum. I would like to ask you a question. I am using a CPAP and I get congested almost every night. I go to bed at about 9:30pm and by 1am or 2am I am stuffed up and wake up out of a sound sleep. I try not to use Afrin (which I may use once a month), but use saline as much as possible. Once I am fairly clear I go back to bed. My congestion is a dry congestion with no mucus at all. My nose during the day and night can go from quite clear to stuffy and back again many times a day. For the last week I have been "talking" to myself to say that it is my subconcious mind causing the congestion because of my repressed emotional and all, but it is not helping at all. WHAT MADE YOU THINK IT WAS 110 PERCENT TMS EQUIV. AS BEEN THE CAUSE OF YOUR CONGESTION? AND DO YOU HAVE ANY ADVISE FOR ME?
Thanks,
Gary
quote:
Originally posted by stanfr
hmmmm...Kelvin; if you've read any of my posts you know im no TMS purist, and as i said i know little about apnea, but it does sound to me like a classic psychogenic symptom (obstructive at least; muscles 'relaxing' 'at night') you had TMS, wouldn't surprise me if the two things are related. CPAP is no different than surgery. I had no success applying Sarno's techniques to my nasal congestion/lack of sleep; I had a septoplasty which 'corrected' my nasal congestion, and enabled me to sleep, but that doesn't change the fact that i am now 110% convinced the congestion was a TMS equivalent. Knowing what i know now, i may have had more success in treating it w/o surgery, but as ive repeatedly pointed out over the last few weeks, psychosomatic disorders may require a broad approach, not necessarily Sarno 101. Something to consider.
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weatherman
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 00:22:37
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My wife is certain I have sleep apnea, and I suspect she's right for several reasons, including morning brain fog. My question is on the test - I have visions of being all wired up in a strange bed somewhere, in which case I would not have any kind of normal sleep. Seems like they couldn't help but find something wrong in that scenario. But, I'm curious to know how this test works from someone who's been there. I don't really know anyone personally who's dealt with it.
Weatherman
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." |
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Garyland
2 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 07:28:49
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I went thru the sleep study. You go to a clinic that has 2 to 4 "bedrooms". It takes about 15 minutes to put wires on your head and other parts of your body. All of the wires do make it a little more difficult to toss and turn. I did not think that I would sleep at all in the sleep lab. I managed to sleep for 1.5 hours total that night. I was not in REM sleep at all that night. I did not dream. However, I did allow them to see that I had severe sleep apnea. So they have you come back another night to sleep with the CPAP machine. That makes it a little more difficult because you have the wires and you are sleeping with a mask on which you are not use to. They will try a few different masks on you because some will cause air leaks or some discomfort, since not all faces are the same. I may have given them one hour of sleep that night.
I have been using a cpap for about 4 years now. It helps me a lot. But with the nasal congestion that I have been having is a pain in the butt.
Hope this helps. Any other ?'s, just ask.
Gary
quote:
Originally posted by weatherman
My wife is certain I have sleep apnea, and I suspect she's right for several reasons, including morning brain fog. My question is on the test - I have visions of being all wired up in a strange bed somewhere, in which case I would not have any kind of normal sleep. Seems like they couldn't help but find something wrong in that scenario. But, I'm curious to know how this test works from someone who's been there. I don't really know anyone personally who's dealt with it.
Weatherman
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement."
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marsha
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2009 : 12:04:06
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I also suffer with sleep apnea. Sleep apnea is not a symptom of TMS. If not treated one could possibly die.
Weight loss sometimes helps the symptoms.
The test is annoying with all the wires and sleeping in a strange place.
My test took two nights. One night was to determine if I had apnea and the other to regulate the CPAP machine. Which by the way I was unable to use.
I use an oral appliance made by a specialized dentist. It isn’t hooked up to any wires or electricity. It almost looks like a retainer that children use to straighten out their teeth. It isn’t uncomfortable, doesn’t change your appearance and it is easy to travel with since it can fit in your pocket.
It was more expensive than the CPAP machine but in some cases it is covered by medical insurance. Sleep apnea is a life threatening condition.
Marsha
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sleep apnea
