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crk
124 Posts |
 Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:44:22
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I know Sarno's theories focus on the Freudian model, but has anyone here had any experience using cognitive behavior therapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_therapy), and/or the "Three Minute Therapy" model (http://threeminutetherapy.com/) to examine and cope with psychological issues?
Although I do not doubt that repressed emotions are the heart and soul of TMS pain, I am not so sure that such emotions are inevitable, irreversable or permanent. If anyone has looked into this I'd appreciate your thoughts on how c.b. therapy might (or might not?) be compatible with Sarno's TMS work.
:) ck |
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carbar
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 20:01:13
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Just my two sense, but I don't put a lot of stock in cognitive behavioral therapy. It seems like it's another treatment that treats the symptoms rather than the cure.
Great, so you can recognize anxiety ( a positive step) but can you figure out what's causing it and make peace with that? That isn't the focus of the cognitive behavioralist.
Nevertheless, check out the Divided Mind because Sarno has some of his own input on the effectiveness of Cog Behv therapires.
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 09:38:57
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Thanks. I should be getting Divided Mind any day now at my library and will look for that. I could be wrong, but my impression of c.b. therapy is that its purpose is to get the patient to question the core beliefs that are producing the anger/anxiety. These are the "musts" and "shoulds," the demands that we make on ourselves, on others, and on the universerve. So the c.b. patient stops and asks "why must my work be done perfectly?" After questioning those demands, a new thinking is developed in which one thinks "I strongly prefer to have things a certain way, but it is not the end of the world if things are otherwise. I accept that some things won't be perfect..."
Of course, I could be wrong about how that works, but it seems compatible with Sarno if you stop repressing. I certainly look forward to hearing his thoughts on this.
Thx. ck |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 10:05:17
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| CBT is a contradiction to TMS treatment. CBT was basically created by Freud bashers, and Dr. Sarno's theory is firmly rooted in Freud's work. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 10:11:09
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Nonsense. Im no expert in psychology, but i have no doubt that CBT
can and should be used in conjunction with psychodynamic methods. Understanding the source of your disorder is one thing, im living proof that more is required--namely a change in behavior! |
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crk
124 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 11:19:10
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Here is how I've been blending the two:
1. I bend to pick something up and get a sting of pain.
2. I stop immediately, mid-pain, and acknowledge that this is a psychological phenomenon.
3. I tell my brain to stop, yell at it, etc.
4. I turn my attention to thoughts of issues that are bothering me.
5. I express my deep anger and anxiety and give full attention to those feelings.
(All the while, feeling the pain and repeating the thought that "NOTHING IS WRONG WITH MY BACK. IMPOSTER!")
6. As a next step, I am finding it helpful to work through my feelings using the cbt technique I read about (and there may be others): http://threeminutetherapy.com/exercise.html
I know that cbt rejects Freud outright and claims that childhood trauma doesn't have any relevance to present troubles. Why must I accept that in order for cbt to be helpful? I certainly could be wrong, but it seems to me that a childhood trauma can be the cause of my thinking. In this case, perhaps neither Freud not cbt is completely correct, but the end result is that I am able to react differently to the mental stimuli in my life. It is helping. Goodness knows I'd love to truly view my world with greater gentleness and less perfectionism.
Psychology is not a hard science. TMS is still being "figured out," which is why so many of us have recurrences and ongoing problems, even after we embrace the knowledge-cure. I am open to seeing whether I can introduce more tools to this toolbox. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 12:00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by crk
TMS is still being "figured out," which is why so many of us have recurrences and ongoing problems, even after we embrace the knowledge-cure. I am open to seeing whether I can introduce more tools to this toolbox.
It is true that the details of how TMS works are still being figured out and Dr. Sarno may not be entirely accurate in this area.
However, after 30 years and thousands of patients there is a solid treatment method that has been devised and is successful. Those who are not successful have barriers to overcome.
Searching for alternative treatment methodologies is counterproductive. The toolbox does not need to be expanded. Those who continually search for new methods -- trying to find a "magic bullet" -- are typically disappointed.
This is a purist attitude, for sure, but it echo's Dr. Sarno's work. If one doesn't get relief, it's not because he is not employing the proper tools, it is because there is some barrier either preventing him from truly accepting TMS, or deep rooted emotional conflicts that have yet to be addressed. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 12:25:23
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In my case, accepting the diagnosis is not an issue. At least consciously, i accept it 110%. I cant analyze if there is any "subconcious doubt". I dont know what the real breakdown is between those who have "deep rooted emotional issues", whatever that means. The quoted figures about X% of people needing psychotherapy are not too enlightening since we have no clue what the real numbers are with respect to TMS/AOS. All i can say is that i soundly beat TMS 10 yrs ago, using the 'purist' Sarno approach, fully unaware that the gremlin was working behind the scene and would continue to come back to haunt me in the form of numerous "equivalents", not because i hadn't accepted the diagnosis, but because my behavior hadn't changed any, namely my way of dealing with stress. Until the behavior changes, the syndrome will continue, i can gaurantee you that! I don't feel this idea is in any way "incompatible" with Sarno, but i feel it is counterproductive to say things like "you must stick to a freudian approach--avoid "alternative" approaches" Alternative to continued suffering?? Yeah, ill take that alternative any day  |
Edited by - stanfr on 08/08/2007 12:26:19 |
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Webdan65
USA
182 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 12:42:37
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ck: I too recently had a new round of TMS pain. I had gone 8 years without any significant episodes and then Whammo - it was on me again.
Gremlins huh? Perhaps.
For me, I don't think it's because I failed to change my behaviors, or stress levels, but because I stopped thinking psychological. I've come to believe that even with a true "purist" cure, we still need continued inner reflection on what we stuff below the surface. There is maintenance required to stay symptom free.
I recently watched Dr. Brady's presentation online. And despite the religious overtones, his description about Autonomic Overload Syndrome (AOS) really rang a bell. It's the same thing Sarno talks about, but It really made sense that our subconscious controls our autonomic nervous system and also happens to be the storehouse of our repressed emotions. Then, when the levels of "stuff" in our subconscious is too intense, our autonomic nervous system starts to overload. Instead of spilling out all the repressed stuff into the broad daylight, it choses to keep the emotions hidden and begins to misfire the autonomic nervous system and affects blood flow causing pain.
For me, a lot comes down to journaling. Dumping it out onto paper in some way feels like not as much is going to my subconscious. I'll be continuing to journal this time around. Time will tell whether or not that level of focus on the psychological keeps those "gremlins" at bay.
Dan |
Edited by - Webdan65 on 08/08/2007 12:45:00 |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 13:50:23
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Behavior modification is essential. This is part of Dr. Sarno's treatment program. You must change the way you think about and react to symptoms when you experience them. You must direct your thoughts towards psychological issues when you are aware of the pain. You must resume normal physical activity as soon as you are able.
The issue here is CBT, not changing your behavior. CBT as a psychological technique is not necessary nor compatible with TMS treatment because as a science, CBT rejects the entire notion that repressed emotions have anything to do with symptoms, and that is the entire basis of the TMS theory. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 15:30:46
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I dont mean to be argumentative, because i honestly don't know the distinctions involved--in fact i asked about the differences a couple months ago in a post on this forum. But could you give me a reference as to the idea that CBT "rejects" the repressed emotions idea? From what ive read, (aside from whatever "history" of the theory there is) CBT is described as:
"Cognitive-behavioral therapy is based on the idea that our thoughts
cause our feelings and behaviors, not external things, like people, situations, and events. The benefit of this fact is that we can change the way we think to feel/act better even if the situation does not change."
(from the nacbt website, probably a pretty good source) nowhere does it bash the idea of repressed emotions, though i could be wrong.
Webdan: interesting, i would say i am just the opposite--i think too much psychologically. Too much thinking, in general, causing AOS. While E Tolle may be way overrated (i really didnt need to read 200 pages of new-age Zen Bhuddist philosophy to enlighten me of the Power of Now) I think the basic idea is very true in my case--that is, that the 'pain-body' is a result of obsessive dwelling on the past and future. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 18:22:51
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Frankly it is entirely possible for a methodology to have some success without the theory behind it being accurate. I think this is the case for CBT especially in the context of TMS. I frankly don't think I would be able to really change my perfectionist thinking without an understanding of what lies behind it (childhood experiences) and deeper emotional work on that issue. But the CBT techniques could be useful because they bring awareness to the thought at the moment. Thought patterns are still habits even after the underlying issue is worked on. CBT addresses this successfully, I believe.
Dave, I generally agree with your perspectives, but I think here you are making the mistake of identifying a potentially helpful technique (interrupting and reframing thought patterns) with the theory behind it. Also, you seem to be insisting that the only essential parts of TMS treatment are also the only necessary parts for everyone, which I simply don't think is the case. Some of us need more help, just as some need therapy and some don't.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2007 : 09:19:10
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You are right; I'm sure there are aspects of CBT techniques that are probably helpful to TMS recovery. If part of CBT is to identify destructive thought patterns and learn to interrupt them, then it can definitely be constructive. Those thought patterns, in effect, are TMS symptoms.
It is seeing a therapist trained specifically in CBT, who rejects Freudian analysis as "old fashioned," that would be contradictory to TMS treatment. |
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stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2007 : 09:43:40
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totally agreed--isn't it great how we can all come to peaceful consensus in this forum?  |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2007 : 13:42:40
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I also agree. I looked quite hard to find a non-CBT therapist. I try too hard to fix things by thinking as it is. :-)
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Three Minute Therapy & Cognitive Behavior therapy
