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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2007 : 15:10:43
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Hey, thx wavy - good point, and I did try to keep this in mind when
writing, so I hope I didn't come across too "holier than thou". That's always the problem when talking about so-called "spiritual" matters (though what ISNT spiritual in life?!)
Art - it seems to me that we're talking at cross purposes, and that
what I mean by worry and what you mean are not the same.
I quite agree that the caveman with the ability to predict future
predator attacks is at an advantage. I don't see that this has to
entail "worry" though. It's simply an intellectual planning exercise.
Worry to me implies excessive mental projection of irrational fears
and is accompanied by constant negative feeling. On me this has a
"rabbit in headlights" effect, actually reducing my capacity to react
as the imaginary fear takes over my responsive abilities.
In terms of coming up with effective, inspired plans for future
advantage, I've noticed that the effect of worrying actually reduces
my capacity for this. The worrying makes too much of itself in my mind
and I feel shut off from the clarity and inspiration which normally
accompanies my acts of creative intelligence. If this is not the case
for you, then I think that your definition of worry is probably wider
than mine, encompassing things like concern. What do you think?
In terms of what I've learnt from my favourite "spiritual" teachers of
the time (Abraham, Byron Katie, Tolle and ACIM), I see fear as an
innate nervous-system response to threat, and worry as an egotistical
mind-based obsession, so they're quite different entities for me. I
quite appreciate that words are unreliable carriers of meaning though,
and I suspect that what you and I are both saying are actually not too
far apart after all! :-)
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 15:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by miehnesor
Wavy- I really like what you have said here and believe it wholeheartedly. The deeper the stuff inside is the less conscious control we have of it. Also the analogy of a reservoir and not a river is very appropriate. Feeling our feelings can slowly empty the reservoir.
The concept of "bottom up" healing has been the basis of my ongoing recovery.
This is a very interesting point, and one I'm quite divided on.
Sarno and my own experiences point to the concept there is such a thing as a "reservoir" of pain/anger inside a person, which can be dissipated gradually by recalling it and processing it in one way or another.
On the other hand, many spiritual teachers I'm learning from, including Abraham, A Course in Miracles, the NLP-ers and to a large extent Tolle too, all say that the "subconscious" doesn't really play a large part, and it's your beliefs in the here and now which really matter. According to them healing could *theoretically* be instant if you could drop all the resisting beliefs which hold the pain in place. I have also seen evidence in my life that this can be true too, even though it seems to contradict the Freudian view.
What do you guys think? Just because the healing process can often take the form of working through a reservoir of rage, is that grounds for saying that it "exists" as such?
Or is it merely the deep-seated belief in a subconcsious reservoir holding us back, which prevents us from healing much quicker?
Could it not be the meditative presence required to get in touch with the feelings which is the actual healing process and nothing necessarily to do with any "reservoir" of stored negativity? Would it work just as well to focus on a packet of m&m's instead, if we truly held the belief that doing so was "processing past traumas"? Clearly belief plays a large part, because those who have seen Sarno directly seem to have much better success than us stragglers who didn't have his typical six-week cure. Maybe we just needed a medical authority to tell us we're not making this all up and everything is gonna be all right...???
Well, I dunno. I'm just putting out ideas here...
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
Edited by - floorten on 07/09/2007 15:30:09 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 16:08:30
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Sarno actually doesn't think the reservoir has to be processed for someone to be healed. There are many stories of "instant healing" from the knowledge. So that would in fact point to something more like a change of beliefs, though a totally different belief.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
Edited by - armchairlinguist on 07/09/2007 16:10:49 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 18:43:10
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Floor,
I guess we've reached that juncture where we're just going to have to agree to disagree...I felt the need to make my arguments as explicit as possible in response to the charge of nonsense, and think I've done that reasonably well...
I continue to think your view of the human mind is simply not realistic. To seriously believe that our hypothetical caveman is going to be lying awake at night thinking about the lions outside in some cold, calm, and dispassionate manner, as if he were trying to figure out some problem in algebra is simply not real world...Can you really believe that?
As human beings we are driven by fear, chiefly the fear of death and annihilation. If you're at all interested in reading further on the subject, I wholeheartedly recommend Becker's book "Denial of Death."
It's quite remarkable in its way and I found it utterly riveting.
Be well...
A. |
Edited by - art on 07/09/2007 19:52:59 |
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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 18:53:03
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I do indeed believe all that I wrote, yes. To me the human mind is a blank slate of creative potential and that potential doesn't have to end up creating patterns of negative anxiety and worry. But I'm cool with agreeing to disagree. I feel we both explored our arguments pretty fully!
Take it easy,
Greg.
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 22:49:25
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There seems to be a wide variation in severity of TMS as well as a willingness or lack thereof of the psyche to abondon the need for TMS symptoms. Those people that simply read one of the good doctors books and almost like magic the symptoms disappear have perhaps a more mild case of TMS. Then there are others who need to address the sources of the rage to get better. Then finally there are those that have to connect with the feelings to get better.
I believe that chronicity of the psychological hit has a lot to do with this as well as the degree of parental functionality through a child's developing years.
I recall a conversation on this forum where I was learning from AnneG about how she recovered and her case had a lot of similarities to mine. She underwent a 6 month intensive therapy period were she got in touch with her anger and expressed it and her symptoms finally subsided. She also said that she was numbed out at a very early age, although perhaps not as early as in my case. My case seems to be even more stubborn than her's and I was able to get information from my folks that I was emotionally disconnected and unresponsive at 4 months old presumably because of an adverse reaction to a vaccination. I believe that that very early hit in infancy has a lot to do with the difficulty my mind has in giving up the TMS. An infant's ability to handle discomfort is very limited and the overflow gets repressed.
What in interesting about my case is that I actually had no symptom improvement until I started experiencing the repressed rage. It was the most incredible experience to realize that even though I seemed to be calm and peaceful consciously I was in fact over the top with rage unconsciously. Now what is also interesting is that my symptoms didn't actually recede until months of processing this rage had passed. Ultimately I had to get into a lot of therapy where I would do the same thing each time- try and feel that rage. I am still at it and I still have TMS. I may have it for the rest of my life but the important thing is that it continues to ease with work so the reservoir analogy seems correct in my case.
So in my book Dr Sarno is right that what is in the basement is rage even if the vast majority of folks don't have to feel it to get better. |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 03:01:15
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quote:
What do you guys think? Just because the healing process can often take the form of working through a reservoir of rage, is that grounds for saying that it "exists" as such?
Well, after studying this for many decades with many hundreds of people and hundreds of myself, I'm quite convinced that there are unresolved masses within the human entity. They are sometimes thought of as existing within the "body" but though they are conscious impressions in the so-called-body, more like tumors on the soul, where energy has beome fixated or looped in a certain closed system. in my work we call them Fixated Attention Masses, and we aim to dissolve them back into source. Calling them reservoirs of rage works, too. The most resisted aspects of them are rage, since sadness and fear are more acceptable.
Someone may cure some conditions with a mere cognitive nod in the direction of his symptoms being caused by emotions. But unless he is willing and able to go in and feel what hasn't been felt, the underlying condition - resistance to one's own emotional reality - has not been resolved. Perhaps your back ache will go away. Perhaps depression will replace it, or beating your wife...
Just telling emotions how to think is a kind of oppressive chauvinistic control habit from the male mind and spirit towards the female body and emotions. we need bothway communication..
I'm crazy tired and may be rambling like a crazy woman who took her 3rd Ambien of 2007 not long ago. Oh yeah, not supposed to post after that. But it's all so INTERESTING...
Back to beddy byes Katie
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 05:02:00
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Someone may cure some conditions with a mere cognitive nod in the direction of his symptoms being caused by emotions.
This actually pretty much sums up my experience. And while I don't consider myself 100 percent cured (way too much hubris, that) I've got the sense I'm on the right track...
Not surprisingly perhaps, I've argued many times around here that there's too much (how much is "too much?" I dunno, let's say for the sake of discussion "3 bags full")emphasis on "feeling the feelings." What I mean by this is I see people tying themselves up into absolute knots in increasingly desperate efforts to somehow feel more deeply, or feel more "accurately."
I believe this can be quite harmful to those who find themselves struggling..."I must (so goes their thinking, a thought process which begets much support on this board) be doing somehting wrong, otherwise I'd be well already. I'm not journaling enough, I'm not feeling enough. This causes much needless stress and anxiety, which as we all know is as counterproductive as counterproductive can be...
My first reading of Sarno was that the cure for TMS is essentially intellectual. There's nothing at all in my own experience to contradict this..My sense of those who are not getting better is that their lives remain toxic....harmful relationships will do it for one example. Unhappiness is not healthy.
For those having difficulty, it's not what we feel that counts so much in my opinion, nearly as much as what we do.
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Edited by - art on 07/10/2007 15:14:12 |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 10:48:25
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Originally posted by JohnO
Dave – Thanks for answering. I’ve done the TMS work faithfully until I can’t think of any more to journal or any more conceivable repressed emotions for seven months and it has been OK at times but flared up lately which pushed me to go see the doctor again.
Dr. Scott Brady in his book titled "Pain Free For Life" lists close to 85 questions you may want to consider, and there is enough there to fill several journals. I feel on those questions alone I could easily fill 3000 page and not even come close to the full extent of the real issues in my life. Sometimes it is necessary to journal about the same thing over and over, because you are never through dealing with any issue, but merely peeling away another layer to get at the next level. Yes, it is difficult and requires a lot of work. In fact, it will be the most difficult thing you will ever do in your life because you are making battle with your own brain and that brain knows you better than anyone else and will use every trick in the book to throw you off - it is always one step ahead of you. Dr. Sarno advises to talk to your brain. Say - outloud- exaclty what you feel. It sounds silly, but Dr. Sarno insists it works for many people.
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Edited by - shawnsmith on 07/10/2007 10:49:58 |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2007 : 11:31:23
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Art- For the majority of TMS sufferers starting Dr. Sarno's treatment your approach is probably the best one to take. Then I think you just have to see how the symptoms respond. Also for many folks that are living with toxic relationships which causes unhappiness that can keep them from recovery as well.
My comments about the IC stuff is really mostly geared towards people who on the more severe end of the spectrum. When Dr. Sarno's treatment plan does not do it then the patient, IMO, needs to try and go deeper into the unconscious and become familiar, as much as possible, with what is going on down there. Dr Sarno prescribes psychotherapy for patients who don't progress in the few month of so even after doing the work diligently. Certainly for me that was necessary.
For those people where psychotherapy is not an option I believe the IC work is the best alternative to discovering at least some of the characteristics of the unconscious which resides in the IC. I've had success with this on my own case and it has also worked remarkably well with others as well. |
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Dave or anyone -- The 100% Thing
