| Author |
 Topic  |
|
JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
 Posted - 06/25/2007 : 12:34:04
|
| Dave or anyone– When you have immersed yourself in everything Sarno for six months until you can recite from his books chapter and verse practically in your sleep and the pain abates some but ramps up again and again and you try to fight it off by telling it you’re in charge, etc. etc. but doesn’t go away and then that gremlin in your brain convinces you to go see the medical doctor and he says there is something physical and then you are all screwed up because now you are less than 100% convinced it is TMS and TMS approach will never work like that, how do you pull yourself back to believing? I am all screwed up right now. |
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 13:44:06
|
John,
No worries my friend. Many to most of us have been there. Going forward, be warned that dr.'s find crap. It's what they do. I stay away, unless it's clearly something that needs checking.
I've always thought this 100 percent rule does more harm than good. It's hard to believe something theoretical with utter certainty. In fact, it's really close to impossible in my view.
Much more important is to act as if you believe. This keeps you moving despite the pain, and has the added benefit of keeping you away from doctors. Keep challengning the pain, do your best to lose your fear, and you'll get better...It's a virtual lock. |
 |
|
|
JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 13:56:40
|
| I don’t know, Art. Sarno and all the books are unequivocal that 100% belief is first and foremost absolutely essential. I’ve gotten worse with these GI problems since the bit of doubt has crept in. I know this has been discussed before on this forum and this shouldn’t be a should you or should you not believe 100% protracted debate. I want to believe 100% but can’t pull it back and need to know how. I really think that is the only way to get better. The doctor has come up with stuff that sounds so convincing and websites proclaim it too. |
|
|
|
stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 14:09:50
|
| John: this is exactly what ive been 'discussing' in the Swan song post. The answer is, don't worry about the 100% rule. Art is 100% correct (pun intended). Just do the work! avoid listening to Drs, keep reminding yourself that the problem is psychological, and reward yourself if you notice the slightest improvement. ABove all, try not to worry or overanalyze (believe me, i know it's touygh cause im going through it right now!) becuse in the end your self-talk will convince your subconcious that the Drs and websites are wrong. You inherently know what the problem is--so believe in yourself; your the person best suited to know what the problem is. |
|
|
|
JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 14:23:49
|
| But how do you refute what Sarno states emphatically about "100% repudiation of the physical?" Dave talks about this all the time too. It is Sarno's numero uno cardinal rule. |
|
|
|
h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 14:40:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by art
Much more important is to act as if you believe. This keeps you moving despite the pain, and has the added benefit of keeping you away from doctors. Keep challengning the pain, do your best to lose your fear, and you'll get better...It's a virtual lock.
Art, what am I going to do with you? You keep cranking out these gems. WELL SAID. This is so very much to the point of the whole 100% debate.
John, when Sarno says repudiate the physical 100%, he doesn't mean flip a switch and forget you ever had anything. He means, DON'T THINK ABOUT IT ANYMORE. Don't think about what the Dr said, and avoid them like the plague. Stay away from websites, that are either promoted by pharma's, or created and perpetuated by hypochonriac types. What do you think people did a hundred years ago when couldn't run to the net, or the Doctor. They had to just accept that they had normal healthy bodies that heal themselves, and move on. Do your best with this.
When you find yourself thinking (or worrying) about the physical, STOP, acknowledge that you WERE thinking about the physical, and briefly close your eyes and imagine what emotional stresses are on your unconscious RIGHT NOW. A couple seconds is all it takes, because we don't have time to stop our lives all day to do this.
Then, actively think about something else.
Remember, it's not good to obsessively read SARNO either, because that's just another distraction. Try to read a little every day until you are well, but in the mean time, start imagining your life without this pain. Then get on with your life, as it will be without this pain.
Regard,
Beth |
|
|
|
weatherman
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 15:01:24
|
For those of us old enough to remember the old Star Trek episodes - there's one called "Shootout at the OK corral" whose ending is exactly like the TMS theory. Anybody else out there remember this one?
Weatherman
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. |
|
|
|
stanfr
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 15:13:46
|
weatherman--i remember the epsiode, but forget the ending. too many intervening beers, i think.
John: Beth is right--stop actively trying to 'repudiate'. you just accept that it's emotionally created and move on. Change your focus. the results you get will do all the repudiating work for you. |
|
|
|
Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 16:00:33
|
weatherman said: For those of us old enough to remember the old Star Trek episodes - there's one called "Shootout at the OK corral"...
Basically the way it ended was... Mr. Spock convinced each of the crew that the bullets in the guns were not real, and therefore could not harm them. The only reason one of the crew had died was because he thought the bullets were real, so when the gun was fired his belief in the bullet killed him.
I agree with you that there is a direct parallel with TMS theory here. If you believe the pain is harmful, the distraction works and TMS has you. If you ignore the pain as benign, then the body will heal itself.
The key here is that the pain is real, but harmless.
Take care, -Stryder |
Edited by - Stryder on 06/25/2007 16:04:44 |
|
|
|
ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 16:33:42
|
Thanks for posting that, Stryder. I'm sure I saw that episode, probably several times over the years, but I couldn't recall the ending. So thanks. Just goes to show that what we believe determines our reality.
Ralph |
|
|
|
JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 18:16:58
|
| Dave --- where are you? They're talking about Star Trek for some inexplicable reason (?) Way off my original question I know you can answer........... |
|
|
|
art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 19:28:37
|
| sigh. |
|
|
|
weatherman
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 22:20:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Stryder
I agree with you that there is a direct parallel with TMS theory here. If you believe the pain is harmful, the distraction works and TMS has you. If you ignore the pain as benign, then the body will heal itself.
The key here is that the pain is real, but harmless.
John O
This is exactly the point I wanted to make, if you get a chance to see this episode the parallel will be obvious. The best way to deal with the pain is to not believe in it, or assign importance to it - often easier said than done. I still have my own struggle with it at times.
I also was a huge fan of All in the Family and Hogan's Heroes in those days but can't recall any good TMS advice from Col. Klink or Archie Bunker .
Weatherman
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. |
|
|
|
Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2007 : 23:46:27
|
quote:
by telling it you’re in charge
JohnO,
maybe you are being too polite. I used to picture the part of the body with the pain (as an xray tech that's quite easy) and yell at the top of my voice 'get the **#*!! outta here you #***! ***#!!ing ****#!#*', I've had e**##!!ing nuff.' and it worked.
Anne
Yelling in the car is best. |
|
|
|
Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 08:28:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by JohnO
Dave or anyone– When you have immersed yourself in everything Sarno for six months until you can recite from his books chapter and verse practically in your sleep and the pain abates some but ramps up again and again and you try to fight it off by telling it you’re in charge, etc. etc. but doesn’t go away and then that gremlin in your brain convinces you to go see the medical doctor and he says there is something physical and then you are all screwed up because now you are less than 100% convinced it is TMS and TMS approach will never work like that, how do you pull yourself back to believing? I am all screwed up right now.
You can be analytical about TMS to the point where you can write 10 books about it, but still not make significant progress. TMS is a primitive process fueled by emotional conflicts within us. When those conflicts are deep and not easy to identify, psychotherapy may be necessary.
It may also be helpful to try to feel rather than think. If you're angry at your boss, go someplace you can be alone and think about pummeling him. Punch a pillow. Get angry! Then try to "let go" of your thoughts and follow the emotions wherever they lead you. You may find that you are able to uncover certain hidden feelings.
As far as "the gremlin" is concerned, you just need to fight him off. As long as you have seen a medical doctor and ruled out any serious problem, you should be able to successfully ignore the symptoms and deflect your thoughts to the psychological realm whenever they stray into the physical. |
|
|
|
JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 08:44:05
|
| Dave – Thanks for replying. The doctor has ruled out serious physical issues but says that there are physical issues causing the misery. So how would you recommend shaking that off and going 100% psychological? Should I let him do yet more torture treatments and see if it is something physical and not TMS? I’m just really confused. |
|
|
|
Paul
134 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 08:49:03
|
John...
Remember how you told me after seeing Dr. Sopher, you felt good for several WEEKS? That right there should be your proof.
I still wonder if I should do physical therapy on the area or go full blown TMS myself...and of course, this just keeps the pain going. I am beginning to get more tough with it though and it does help.
Cheers,
Paul |
|
|
|
JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 09:08:17
|
You’re right, Paul. I was better for a while until it ramped up again in the last few weeks. When I went on vacation to Arizona I was fine. No stress. Then when my a-hole boss quit I was better for a while. Then it ratchets up again. I am sure relaxation and stress have a lot to do with it. The depression component is the worst.
I think you should try full blown TMS, Paul. What have you go to lose? Getting tough like all the posters on the forum advocate helps some but not always. I wonder if the tough thing works better for back and neck maladies than our GI miseries?
Cheers to you too but I like Seinfeld better.
|
|
|
|
weatherman
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 09:26:26
|
Another point - a doctor is always going to find something, that's what they're supposed to do. And since very few of us are physically perfect, there's usually something to find. Once something serious has been ruled out, a conventional doc may do more harm than good in my opinion. I do fully appreciate how hard it is to detach yourself from a symptom when you're in the middle of it - often it's not until the problem has passed and you look back on it months or years later that you realize how ridiculous it was to begin with.
As the saying goes, never ask a barber if you need a haircut.
Weatherman
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. |
|
|
|
Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 13:55:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by JohnO
Dave – Thanks for replying. The doctor has ruled out serious physical issues but says that there are physical issues causing the misery. So how would you recommend shaking that off and going 100% psychological? Should I let him do yet more torture treatments and see if it is something physical and not TMS? I’m just really confused.
Most medical practitioners do not know about TMS, and of those that do, most don't agree with it. It is common for doctors to come up with various structural diagnoses because that is how they are trained. Did he give you a more detailed diagnosis than simply "physical issues"?
If you fit the psychological profile described in Dr. Sarno's books (i.e. perfectionist and/or goodist) then it is likely your symptoms are TMS. Since you have ruled out serious illness, there is no harm in making a leap of faith at this point. Do the work, focus on the psychological, and ignore your symptoms. |
|
|
|
JohnO
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2007 : 14:58:49
|
| Dave – Thanks for answering. I’ve done the TMS work faithfully until I can’t think of any more to journal or any more conceivable repressed emotions for seven months and it has been OK at times but flared up lately which pushed me to go see the doctor again. He says I have muscles that need toning and recommends biofeedback. I think since I have gone to see him my brain knows I have not repudiated 100% physical and the TMS approach has stopped working. I need to get it back 100%. Tomorrow I see Dr. Eugenio Martinez in Boston who introduced me to TMS in 2000 for neck pain then and although what I have is not his specialty, maybe he can pep talk me back into the right thinking. Thanks for all your help. You are awesome to keep this board going. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Dave or anyone -- The 100% Thing
