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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
 Posted - 06/07/2007 : 04:36:16
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| anyone else had this on their MRI report? In the TMS realm is it just as harmless as a herniated disc? I can find no mention of this in Sarno, except to say that he mentions the "annulus Fibrosis" as the outer shell of the disc somewhere. If you put in Annular tear in google, ya jump back on to the "spineugly" train again. |
Edited by - skizzik on 06/07/2007 04:38:42 |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 06:48:35
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| Well, Sarno's books couldn't possibly keep up with the way they change their medical terminology. On my MRI report, it said something like, left focal disc potrusion, disc dessication, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Come to find disc potrusion was a disc bulge, dessication was another term that my disc was shrinking. The more you focus on that diagnosis, the longer the your recovery will be. I wish I never had an MRI or Ct scan. They put me into more fear tahn anything else. Their nocebos are very powerful. Your TMS could turn into OCD, obessising about your MRI, cause it happened to me. If you have a copy of your report, lock it away |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 07:07:08
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Skizzik
We are not doctors here and cannot possibly comment on every single diagnosis, especially when they are not mentioned by Sarno. It may or may not be TMS that is causing your pain. We cannot possibly determine that. Yiu will have to come to that conclusion on your own like most of us on the board did with thier symptoms.
We are not interested in talking about symptoms, but matters taking place in the psyche which leads to symptoms. The symptoms, of rour purposes here, are uninteresting and discussion of them lead nowhere. We want to know what is taking place in your life, not in your body.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Do you have a pain-prone personality?
http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp |
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h2oskier25
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 07:20:48
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OK, so Shawn wasn't too delicate in trying to say that he feels your pain (mental, that is), but wishes you would get on to the emotional issues you may be having as opposed to this.
Look, in my experience, people with true back problems are unable to do things, like sit, bend, drive etc, because the back is SO necessary for life. If you have a little pain, or even a lot of pain, that comes and goes, it's TMS. If your house was on fire and you could run out of that burning house in a panic, you most likely have a normal healthy back, with the same anomalies all of us have.
When it comes to symptoms, it's best to stay off the internet. Keep in mind that medical science perpetuates itself with dysfunction, not cures. When medical science keeps coming up with new syndromes, they create new revenue streams.
Calm down, read some Sarno, and do some journaling. We really think it would help you.
Keep the Faith, Ski, it will cure you.
Regards,
Beth |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 08:03:48
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Shawn,
Calm down...Holy smokes. It's fine to talk about symptoms skizzik, and MRI reports and whatever you like. Almost all of us do, if for no other reason than to be reassured... |
Edited by - art on 06/07/2007 08:04:11 |
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 08:27:32
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
Skizzik
We are not doctors here and cannot possibly comment on every single diagnosis, especially when they are not mentioned by Sarno. It may or may not be TMS that is causing your pain. We cannot possibly determine that. Yiu will have to come to that conclusion on your own like most of us on the board did with thier symptoms.
We are not interested in talking about symptoms, but matters taking place in the psyche which leads to symptoms. The symptoms, of rour purposes here, are uninteresting and discussion of them lead nowhere. We want to know what is taking place in your life, not in your body.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Do you have a pain-prone personality?
http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp
well...yes and no...I understand where your'e coming from, but if Sarno had a book called "healing pain" w/ just the treatment chapter and no medical jargon, or symptoms, I feel none of us would be here.
When I got over my first bout w/ herniations 4yrs ago I was comforted knowing that half the world is walking around w/ them asymptomatticaly. And why? because perhaps they did'nt repress their feelings like we did.
Art, reassurance is what I'm after on these boards. thanx.
H2o, thanx, I calm down after reading this stuff..I think
Thanx 2 scoops, yeah the x-ray was a "normal" report, but the MRI was oogly.
thanx for your support guys.
anyone else hear of "annular tears" on their MRI. Or discuss them w/ their doc's? Or hear Sarno mention them? |
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Newmom
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:02:23
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I am okay with people talking about their physical problems here, afterall, it is what brought all of us here. In my experience it was a journey in going from the physical to the mental. When I first came here, I am sure most of my posts were about my physical injury and what it was, what happened, etc. People listed and gave me advice. It helped.
For me to get better, I needed to hear that everybody else had the exact same injury as me in order for me to be able to relate. A healthy person could tell me that it was my unconscious mind causing the pain, but for me to truly believe and change my thinking, it took somebody who has already walked in my shoes to tell me that it was in my mind. When you're ready to move past the physical problem you will. I believe it is a cycle.
With that said, Skizzik, you have your physical diagnosis. You are obsessing over a tear. It is no different than me when I was obsessing over a rupture. A few months ago, I would have read your post and said I have a rupture, he has a tear, no wonder I am in pain, I have a more severe physical injury. (NOT SAYING ONE IS ANY WORSE THAN THE OTHER, JUST TRYING TO RATIONALIZE SOME CONCRETE IDEAS FROM EVERYDAY LIFE) This is where I got stuck. Why are you having such a problem accepting that your tear is any different than a rupture or any other abnormality? I wasn't able to think psychologically until I overcame this physical element. You have the physical, it's there, it's harmless, let's move on.
Remember, most of us have walked in your shoes, we no longer talk about the actual physical injury/symptoms, but we had them, and have got better. You will too.
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:31:41
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If we talk about our symptoms were are only ensuring they perpetuate. If you want me to start quoting Sarno on this I can give numerous passages from his books. Our physical symptoms are a distraction. Talk about them and you are feeding into them. There is no delicate way to say it. I am getting annoyed with people going on and on about their symptoms and not talking about what the real issues in their lives are. The pysiology of TMS symptoms are unimportant.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Do you have a pain-prone personality?
http://www.bradyinstitute.com/aboutBook/painProne.asp |
Edited by - shawnsmith on 06/07/2007 09:37:48 |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 09:52:34
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skizzik said: In the TMS realm is it just as harmless as a herniated disc?
Hi skizzik,
2 things...
To answer your question, "annular tear" falls into the bucket of broken disk DXs (slipped disk, herniated disk, protruding disk, extruded segment, HNP, buldging disk, yada, yada, yada). Specifically it means the outer rim of the disk has a rip in it. That may or may not let the inner disk material leak out (extruded segment).
Now that I've been evil and said all that, proceed to forget everything I just wrote because in the real world none of it matters.
What the MRI shows, not matter what you call it, as Sarno says quite clearly, is not related to your pain. The so called link between what the MRI showns and pain is all part of the medical/industrial complex. If you have been examined by a doctor and been cleared of any serious condition, then file the MRI away, forget it, and press on with your TMS work with all due vigor. There is no connection between your MRI and your TMS pain.
Take care, -Stryder
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Edited by - Stryder on 06/07/2007 11:50:23 |
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Newmom
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:03:49
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Shawnsmith,
I agree with you that talking about physical symptoms is useless. However, I disagree with you that somebody should not be able to talk about their physical symptoms here if they want. You have been cured. Many have not. To a new person, their injury is what they are holding on to. It is all they know initially. Remember, knowledge is the cure. They do not learn to let go of the physical until they can express this to us, relate to us and receive advice. Just reading and hearing that a physical condition means nothing and should not be talked about on this forum means nothing to a new person unless they can truly absorb and believe that piece of advice. That's why we are all hear isn't it?
Did you ever watch a movie by yourself and when it was over want so desperately to talk about it? At first you talk about the ending of the movie (the physical injury/abnormality). You think you know why the movie ended the way it did and what would happen next, but when you talk to somebody else, they have a different opinion and you may get that oh yeah feeling. The discussion takes the physical pain you are still having and moves it to why your still having the pain. That's the psycholgical part.
That's how I feel about this forum. We are here to express our thoughts and feelings, listen and if we decide, respond to people. To members, they have this injury, they learn about Dr. Sarno, read his books, watch dvds, etc., then come here to discuss.
I see no harm. There are different topics on the forum. I chose to read some topics and not others. I can't imagine everybody chosing to read tt and alexis battle saga. Same with the physical symptoms topics.
We were all newbies when we first came here, it is through trial and error that we learn the path from the physical switching to the psychological to being pain free.
I may be the only person that feels this way, but as I am trademarking upon another members signature (I can't remember who or I would give proper credit) "That's just my two sense!!" |
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electraglideman
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:04:52
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Skizzik, I've noticed you have mention this tear several times in your post. Five years ago I had surgery on my neck ( 4 and 5 vertebra fused because the disc was torn). This is before I knew about Sarno and I was in much pain.
Guess how much relief I got? NOT ANY. Needless to say I was pissed.
There are people everywhere walking around with an annular tear with absolutly no pain.
Forget about the tear. It's bull**** man. Let it go!
Now go take a long walk and enjoy the fresh air and sunshine.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:33:25
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Hi Ski,
If you don't already have Dr. Marc Sopher's book in your TMS library, I highly reccommend it. Read his chapter on Backs. The book isn't indexed otherwise I would look up what he says on annular tears.
He says that the problem with MRI's is that they do such a GOOD job of imaging the body that basicly everything is subsceptible to being dx'ed as an anomaly, incorrectly justifying there use for the cause of the TMS symptomatic pain.
Think of the MRI being analogous to finger-prints or snowflakes--amazingly no two have ever been found to be identical!
There is no one perfect standard for a body part. Just because it looks different from the hypothetical "norm" does not mean it's injured.
Read Dr. Sopher's chapter on The Back and it will all be explained clearly and convincingly!
Good luck and hang in there!
tt
Some of my favorite excerpts from " _THE DIVIDED MIND_ " :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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Edited by - tennis tom on 06/07/2007 10:38:29 |
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ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 10:47:39
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Here's that quote that tt mentions, from Dr. Marc Sopher, which I recently used on another thread:
"With the availability of CT and now MRI scanners, it is possible to obtain remarkable images of the body. That is the good news. The bad news is that many of these images will be reported as abnormal - one study reported in the New England Journal of Medicine that greater than 60% of spine MRIs showed abnormalities, the same percentage in those without pain as with pain. Virtually every person over 20 who has a spine MRI will be told they have degenerative disc disease, disc herniation, degenerative changes, or some other abnormality. As these findings are present equally, no matter whether symptoms exist, it is Dr. Sarno's and my contention that these are incidental, rarely the cause for pain. Unfortunately, physicians are taught to find a physical cause for physical symptoms and thus tell their patients about their "back problem."
"Being told that you have a "problem" or "condition" can aid the "nocebo response." This is the opposite of the placebo response. With a placebo, belief in a worthless remedy can provide relief, almost always temporary, due to the desire to be well and faith in the value of the remedy. With a nocebo, symptoms will persist or intensify as a result of being informed, incorrectly, that a significant defect or problem is to blame. This is a critical part of conditioning - coming to believe that certain actions, circumstances, or aspects of the environment are the cause of symptoms, when in fact the cause lies in the mind."
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skizzik
USA
783 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2007 : 16:34:21
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thanx newmom, to know your'e obsessing you need to hear it from others in order to relax.
Shawnsmith, I so appreciate where your'e coming from because it reinforces the psychological. Thanx for that.
Stryder, yes, this is what I was looking for,(well, I was hoping for an actual poster w/ annular tear, but this will do) just yada, yada yada as far as us TMS'rs are concerned.
electraglideman, thanx, it's sunny, and I'm gonna take 2 of the 3 kids out for a walk since I'm in a good mood. I'll post why I'm in a good mood later in my other "long in the tooth" thread. I'm sorry you had to go thru that surgery experience. Are you pain free now after finding Sarno?
TT, I don't care what others think of your views or whatever, your'e a post I can count on. They did'nt have Sopher's book at my library, so I'll have to search a little more.
Thanx ralph, I can't read this stuff enuff! |
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annular tear
