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jrnythpst
USA
134 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2007 : 13:42:41
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Is the complete and utter senseless massacre on VT's campus causing anyone else to wobble some with their TMS? I just don't get people or what causes people to so completely lose touch with reality that they deem it appropriate and almost necessary to create such chaos in the world around them. I feel sad for everyone involved but most off for the 76 year old professor that survived the holocaust but then died by the hands of a deranged student.
I got as bad I as got shortly after the 9/11 incident, I think partially because I bottled it inside. I am now being very vocal with my feelings (and journaling them) about this incident. Has this affected anyone else?
Thanks,
Ali
Hugs,
Ali Cat |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 14:06:28
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No, not so much any TMS flare-ups, but I have been thinking about the student who did the shooting. I feel bad for people of all kinds suffering, and I imagine he suffered in some way to end up doing something so horrible. I feel in our society if you can't cope or are different, you are often cruelly ostracized (again, not saying this is the case here, but these types of things can engender rage). Its not at all that I feel he isn't responsible for what he did - everyone is responsible for their actions. But I wonder, is there some point in time when some kindness someone could have done would have changed the course of events.
Yes, actually to some degree, I can imagine the frustration that might want a human to unleash destruction. Again, not condoning any type of violence against others, but anger and the need to lash out are natural emotions in my view. Some people when depressed or sick cannot properly deal with these emotions. |
Edited by - ndb on 04/20/2007 14:13:40 |
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jrnythpst
USA
134 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 14:17:17
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I don't ndb, it sounded like people did try to be nice to him. I know some people may say I'm totally off base but I think that the violent video games he played so much probably helped desensitize him to death (his own and others).
Millions of people get picked on worse than what has been reported about Cho but don't commit such grievous acts upon society. I do think the mental health system failed him though, if the warnings signals were as prevalent as reported. I mean I have gown through a LOT in life but I don't have suicidal or homicidal inklings. In some people I don't think compassion could even begin to help make them whole. It's just so sad how our world seems to be dissolving when it comes to life (tried to think of the word meaning opposite of evolving but had mind slip).
Hugs,
Ali Cat |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 14:45:33
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Yeah, I didn't mean something as specific as people weren't nice to him, or picked on him, and that caused him to finally go beserk. It's more that he was probably ill, and in society, we seem to just ignore these things to try to not think of these ugly things. They are just inconvenient to deal with.
I know millions of people don't react in the same way, but who's to say that that makes a human emotion better or worse. When I was a kid, and sometimes even now, I feel like killing and hurting the people who hurt me, sometimes unknowingly. I once felt slighted by my roommate and his girlfriend, and I had this maniacal urge to go and slash his tyres. I pleaded with my fiance to help me do this, but he laughed at me because he thought my reaction was so over the top. My fiance has never had thoughts like this of hurting people and revenge and can't imagine why I feel so strongly. If the rational part of my mind didn't keep me in check so strongly, I have to admit, I would succumb to the urge to be violent. But I accept my emotions and don't feel that my reaction is wrong just because most people don't feel that way. |
Edited by - ndb on 04/20/2007 14:48:19 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 14:53:20
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I've been terribly bothered by this ws well...
There's just the senselessness of it all for one thing, plus the unreasonable anger I feel toward an insane dead man. And let's not forget the political side of this, which doesn't seem to be talked about much...This stuff happens every single day in Iraq, and it's our fault, our country's fault anyway...If we got 1/4 as worked up about dying Iraquis, not to mention our own brave dead and dying soldiers, we'd be out of there by now..
I also can't lose the feeling that something should have been done to stop this guy...The signs were there...His English teacher went to the authorities several times..His classmates, or some of his classmates anyway were afraid to be in the same room with him because they were afraid he might do the very thing he ended up doing... |
Edited by - art on 04/20/2007 14:54:06 |
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jrnythpst
USA
134 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 14:56:34
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I think most have had manical urges somewhere in their lives and luckily the vast majority of us do have the reality/rationality check in place. I also see how someone would react in severe violence if their child's life were at stake. I guess hate can be stronger than love and for some it's the love of hate. Anyway checked one last time before getting ready to go home for the day. For whatever it's worth I don't think your non acted upon reaction was all that abnormal, it's only when it's acted upon that it dwelves into that area of abnormal psychology and I hope and pray that the world stays that way.
Hugs,
Ali Cat |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 15:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by art
I also can't lose the feeling that something should have been done to stop this guy...The signs were there...His English teacher went to the authorities several times..His classmates, or some of his classmates anyway were afraid to be in the same room with him because they were afraid he might do the very thing he ended up doing...
I didn't like that the reaction of one of his teachers was to say 'Get out of my class.' In my opinion, that kind of reaction doesn't help the situation at all.
I am thinking about these things also in relation to a friend grad student who is going through a depressive phase. I am appalled at the kind of 'help' he has been getting. The student health center sent him away with medication and told him he was 'genetically predisposed' to bipolar disorder and he would have to remain on medication, there was no other option. He happened to talk to me about all this, and I suggested he go to an outside psychotherapist. He kept repeating that he was resigned to being on medication and no sort of counselling would help. He finally did go, and thankfully is making some progress. The other thing which I see is how studiously any of my other friends avoid bringing up the topic or discussing it with him frankly and directly. Sometimes I feel that this fuels his paranoid behavior.
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Edited by - ndb on 04/20/2007 15:02:03 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 15:02:22
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I read today that something like 91 percent of males...have had some sort of vivid homicidal fantasy...Surprisingly, most women have too..
This seems troublingly high...I can honestly say I've never had a fantasy like this, and I don't believe I'm all that unusual... |
Edited by - art on 04/20/2007 15:02:51 |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 15:32:55
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The only time I think severly violent thoughts (and could potentially act on them) is when someone or group of people do ANYTHING to intentionally hurt innocent/defenseless animals..That is just me..If I told you what I would like to do to those cruel bastards who club the seals in Canada, or the Navy who deploys sonar in our oceans injuring and killing thousands of whales/dolphins, or the paranoid maniacs who are shooting the wolves in Alaska...I would be put away for these detailed violent thoughts! I guess it's a good thing all the work I do in animal rights is via the internet or regular mail to senators, etc..If I came face to face with one of these psycho maniacs, I would be put in jail..
I have felt extreme rage and had some violent thoughts about a certain relative of mine who continually hurts those I love dearly or a certain ex boyfriend..But I would never act on any of it..They are just fantasies and I push them out of my mind quickly out of guilt..These kinds of fantasties, I believe, are natural in human nature.. |
Edited by - Singer_Artist on 04/20/2007 15:37:58 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 16:21:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Singer_Artist
The only time I think severly violent thoughts (and could potentially act on them) is when someone or group of people do ANYTHING to intentionally hurt innocent/defenseless animals..That is just me..If I told you what I would like to do to those cruel bastards who club the seals in Canada, or the Navy who deploys sonar in our oceans injuring and killing thousands of whales/dolphins, or the paranoid maniacs who are shooting the wolves in Alaska...I would be put away for these detailed violent thoughts! I guess it's a good thing all the work I do in animal rights is via the internet or regular mail to senators, etc..If I came face to face with one of these psycho maniacs, I would be put in jail..
I have felt extreme rage and had some violent thoughts about a certain relative of mine who continually hurts those I love dearly or a certain ex boyfriend..But I would never act on any of it..They are just fantasies and I push them out of my mind quickly out of guilt..These kinds of fantasties, I believe, are natural in human nature..
That's the gist of the article I read, so yes, you're right. I was quite surprised however to read how not just common this is, but how predominant. |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 17:44:53
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EDITORIAL
Why Virginia Tech killings happened
Published Apr 17, 2007
http://www.workers.org/2007/editorials/virginia-tech-0426/
Yet another rampage has occurred at a school, this time leaving 33 people dead at Virginia Tech—the worst such incident ever at a U.S. college campus.
The news media seem stunned and surprised, yet their coverage sounds so similar to the stories about Columbine eight years ago. They dwell on the personality of the young man the police say did the shooting, before killing himself. They talk about him being a “loner,” depressed, perhaps angry at women.
But aren’t there lonely and depressed people all over the world? Many countries have high suicide rates. Why is it that here some become mass murderers?
The U.S. is the world leader in seemingly random acts of violence by individuals. Why?
President George W. Bush rushed to Virginia to speak at a large convocation the day after the killings and tried to set the tone for what could be said about them. “It’s impossible to make sense of such violence and suffering,” he said.
Don’t ask why, don’t try to understand. It makes no sense. “Have faith” instead, was Bush’s message.
But there ARE reasons these things happen here, and they are pretty clear to the rest of the world. It’s just in the United States that no one is supposed to talk about the reasons.
What distinguishes this country from the rest of the world? It is neither the most affluent nor the poorest. It is neither the most secular nor the most religious. It is not the most culturally homogeneous nor is it the most diverse.
But in one area, it stands virtually alone. It has the biggest arsenal of high-tech weaponry in the world, way surpassing every other country. It has military bases spread all over; most countries have no troops outside their borders.
It is conducting two hot wars at the moment, in Iraq and Afghanistan, and has sent hundreds of thousands of troops abroad over the last few years. Every day, the public here is supposed to identify with soldiers who burst into homes in Baghdad, round up the people and take them away for “interrogation”—which everyone knows now can mean torture and indefinite detainment.
It also sends heavily armed “special ops” on secret missions to countless other countries, like the ones who just facilitated the invasion and bombing of Somalia, or the ones who have been trying to stir up opposition in Iran. This is documented in the news media.
The immense brutality of these colonial wars, as well as earlier ones, is praised from the White House on down as the best, the ONLY way to achieve what the political leaders and their influential, rich backers decide is necessary to protect their world empire. Do lots of people get killed? “Stuff happens,” said former war secretary Donald Rumsfeld. “Collateral damage,” says the Pentagon.
At home, the U.S. has the highest rate of incarceration in the world. Over 2 million people are locked up in the prison system each year, most of them people of color. When commercial armed security guards are also taken into consideration, the U.S. has millions of employees who use guns and other coercive paraphernalia in their jobs.
In the final analysis, the military and the police—the “armed bodies of men,” as Marxists used to define them before women were added to their ranks—exist to perpetuate and protect this present unjust system of capitalist inequality, where a few can claim personal ownership over a vast economy built by the sweat and blood of hundreds of millions of workers.
And the more divided, the more polarized the society becomes, the higher the level of coercion and violence. Assault weapons are now everywhere in this society, as are Tasers, handcuffs, clubs and tear gas. They most often start out in the hands of the police, the military and other agents of the state, and can then turn up anywhere.
Violence is a big money maker in the mass culture. Television, films, pulp novels, Internet sites, video games—all dwell on “sociopaths” while glorifying the state’s use of violence, often supplemented by a lone vigilante. By the time children reach their teens, they have already seen thousands of murders and killings on television. And these days even more suspense is added in countless programs that involve stalking and terror against women—and increasingly children.
As the Duke rape case and so many “escort service” ads show, women of color are particularly subject to exploitation and have little recourse to any justice. And as the murders along the border show, immigrants of color are fair game for racist killers.
The social soil of capitalism can alienate and enrage an unstable and miserable person who should be getting help but can’t find it. If, as reports are saying, the young man accused of these killings was on anti-depressant medication, it is all the more evidence that, at a time when hospitals are closing and health care is unavailable for tens of millions, treating mental health problems requires more from society than just prescribing dubious chemicals.
Many liberal commentators are taking this occasion to renew the demand for tougher gun laws. Yes, assault weapons are horrible, but so are bunker buster bombs, helicopters that fire thousands of rounds a minute, and the ultimate—nuclear weapons. Disarming the people is not the answer, especially when the capitalist state is armed to the teeth and uses brutality and coercion daily.
The best antidote to these tragedies is to build a movement for profound social change, for replacing capitalism with socialism, so that people’s energies can be directed at solving the great problems depressing so much of humanity today, whether they be wars or global climate change or the loneliness of the dog-eat-dog society.
_______________
Articles copyright 1995-2007 Workers World. Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium without royalty provided this notice is preserved.
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Sarno-ize it!
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 20:34:14
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quote:
Originally posted by art
And let's not forget the political side of this, which doesn't seem to be talked about much...This stuff happens every single day in Iraq, and it's our fault, our country's fault anyway...If we got 1/4 as worked up about dying Iraquis, not to mention our own brave dead and dying soldiers, we'd be out of there by now..
Good point Art it's happening in Iraq and not HERE! Have you forgotten about 9/11? Our military along with our few stalwart allies, have won the war in Iraq and hopefully we will keep a strategic presence there for a few thousand years and bring peace to that region.
Iraq broke it's peace treaty after we kicked their butts for invadeding, pillaging and rapeing Kuwait and Saudi Arabia--remember that skirmish? We had every right and obligation to invade Iraq for breaking the peace treaty they signed.
We own Iraq, we won the war. Why don't all the great peace-niks like the Dixie Chicks, Alec Baldwin (father of the year), Sean Penn, The Sheens, Barbara Streisand, Suzanne Sarandon, and the retro Jane Fonda, go over there and win the peace?--isn't that their job? Maybe they could throw a concert in Bagdad. But they won't--life's too comfortable in Malibu.
Why don't you ask our soldier's if they feel the job they are doing in Iraq is worth it and how they feel about the lack of support they are getting from the Demos?
And while we're at it can someone tell me the difference behind the rational for invading Darfur to stop the genocide there, versus Iraq to stop the genocide that Saddam's clan waged against his entire country and millions of Kurds?
I didn't start the political debate, just trying to provide an alternative viewpoint on the subject.
some of my favorite excerpts from 'TDM' : http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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Edited by - tennis tom on 04/20/2007 20:45:59 |
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carbar
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 22:42:33
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Hmm, not gonna go there on the politics of this side, other to say the media frenzy from this very real tragedy provides a nice little distraction from death and destruction in *all* the forgotten places...including US inner cities.)
Yar, off my high horse to say:
Dang, this really affects me as a teacher. I don't know if my TMS is any worse, but I just feel a real sense of questioning whether I'm good enough to be a teacher. Am I "good enough" to prevent this kind of bullying and alienation from growing in the hearts of my young kiddos? Clearly, rationally, this is not simply the job of one early childhood teacher, but there's this overwhelming TMS goodist sense that I *should* be the perfectionist hero who can heal the hearts of suffering kids.
Sigh. This is really forcing me to monitor my emotions. I think I haven't felt the collective rage and sadness for those who suffered in the attack yet. I wonder if that's fueling my TMS impulse to "fix it" in my little work? |
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Woodchuck
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 23:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by art
I've been terribly bothered by this ws well...
There's just the senselessness of it all for one thing, plus the unreasonable anger I feel toward an insane dead man. And let's not forget the political side of this, which doesn't seem to be talked about much...This stuff happens every single day in Iraq, and it's our fault, our country's fault anyway...If we got 1/4 as worked up about dying Iraquis, not to mention our own brave dead and dying soldiers, we'd be out of there by now..
I also can't lose the feeling that something should have been done to stop this guy...The signs were there...His English teacher went to the authorities several times..His classmates, or some of his classmates anyway were afraid to be in the same room with him because they were afraid he might do the very thing he ended up doing...
I wonder too if there may have been some incestuous issue involved in his rage. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall, didn't he write an essay or two involving a stepfather abusing his stepson and that ending in violence? I'm an AA member and many years ago I knew a guy and his sister, also AA members, who had been sexually abused for years by their actual father. Talk about rage! As far as I know, they both stayed sober and dealt with the trauma in a peaceful manner and did not act out what they would have wanted to do in revenge. I've often wondered how I would have dealt with that. Still, I can't imagine taking out my anger on scores of people as this guy did. Really baffling :(
Woodchuck |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 05:42:02
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What does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? There is absolutley no link except as 9/11 being used as the pretext to attack other countries and curtail the civil liberities of people living in the US.
*************
Sarno-ize it!
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 06:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
What does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? There is absolutley no link except as 9/11 being used as the pretext to attack other countries and curtail the civil liberities of people living in the US.
*************
Sarno-ize it!
*************
Shawn, it has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq...Not a blessed thing. Lies, lies, and more lies. |
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Shary
147 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 07:59:11
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Amen regarding Iraq. I have so many problems of my own that I never give much thought to my ire regarding our present administration and its spendthrift, warmongering ways. Further, my spouse is a Bush man, being ex-Navy and pro-military--or he was. He's much quieter these days but still doesn't believe in what he calls "cut and run." (So at what point do we let the Iraqis sink or swim on their own, now that we've thoroughly mucked up over there?) We still can't discuss Bush's policies without arguing, so we mostly agree to disagree and keep our opinions to ourselves. Is this more fuel for TMS?
As for Virginia Tech, maybe it's time to hold the media accountable for glorifying these lunatics by putting them in print and on the tube. I live in metro Denver just across town from Columbine HS, and we have been inundated with just about every rehash imaginable every time there's a slow news day. It makes me cringe wondering how many other nuts are out there contemplating a chance to make headlines.
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 08:21:48
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Shary,
My hat's off to you re your ability to keep the family peace. This government has been so cynically divisive, so completely beyond the pale, and ultimately so damaging to the fabric of our country that I would be hard pressed in your situation to keep my mouth shut. That "cut and run" stuff just drives me insane..
I also agree that we give these lunatics entirely too much attention. I call it non-news news. By the second or third day, it's nothing more than ratings mongering, and in the end I think it's quite harmful. |
Edited by - art on 04/21/2007 08:26:31 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 08:51:39
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"This government has been so cynically divisive, so completely beyond the pale, and ultimately so damaging to the fabric of our country..."
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You are referring to Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, Billary Clinton and Barney Frank aren't you?
Can someone tell me if Barry Obama gets elected president, will he be sworn in using the Koran?
some of my favorite excerpts from 'TDM' : http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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Edited by - tennis tom on 04/21/2007 08:53:19 |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
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Woodchuck
USA
111 Posts |
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Virginia Tech Massacre
