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Shary
147 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2007 : 12:56:20
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I know a guy who can rationalize away anything. Nothing bothers him. Ever. He was a marine in Vietnam. He was in Da Nang during the Tet offensive, among a few other similar vacation spots. Maybe that's where he learned to make peace with whatever comes down the pike. And maybe it's just a part of his mental and emotional makeup. I don't know. I do know I envy that ability. He's been through a lot in his life. Granted, much of it was hassles of his own making, because rationalizing isn't always appropriate. But the point here is that people who have this ability don't get TMS. They seem to be able to look at an issue, see it for what it is, and then blow it off. Those of us who do get TMS are just the opposite. Instead of blowing things off, we blow them out of proportion and then stash them in a corner of our minds where they can fester for years. Now, if we could all just learn to selectively rationalize.... Well, it's just a thought. Maybe this, too, has occurred to Dr. Sarno.
At the risk of becoming a chronic chronicler on this website, let me just say that this form of public journaling helps me to gather my sometimes-inane thoughts into something approaching coherence, which does help me. Hopefully I can occasionally help others as well.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 13:32:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Shary
At the risk of becoming a chronic chronicler on this website, let me just say that this form of public journaling helps me to gather my sometimes-inane thoughts into something approaching coherence, which does help me. Hopefully I can occasionally help others as well.
Nothing wrong with that Shary, keep up the good work.
Regards,
tt
some of my favorite excerpts from 'TDM' : http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 14:52:14
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He may just be a master represser. If he is, he would not be aware of his feelings and may be burying them as a form of protection. I don't believe those people who go through horrid experiences and then say it did not bother them in the least. In fact, I suspect, as I stated, they are master repessers and it may eventually catch up with them.
*************
Sarno-ize it!
************* |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 14:53:43
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Rationalizers pay a price as well...Unless he's quite narcissistic, which is always possible, he's aware of his own fundamental dishonesty....In a nutshell, he probably doesn't like himself much, despite appearances..
If he does suffer from a personality disorder like narcissism, then that's a different kettle of fish. But that's even worse for him. Inside, he'd be quite empty, quite unhappy...
I'll take an overactive superego and tms thank you... |
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Shary
147 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 16:40:26
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Shawnsmith and Art,
I thought the same thing until I got to know the guy over a period of years. As the saying goes, he doesn't sweat the small stuff--and for some people it's all small stuff. That doesn't necessarily mean a personality disorder or a hidden powder keg (so put away the psychiatry books, guys). In any case, I think you missed my point. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 18:55:05
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| Certainly wouldn't be the first time I've missed a point. But we try Shari, we try. |
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Shary
147 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 09:24:53
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| Way to go, Art. All any of us can do is try. Rationalizing away the small stuff (defusing it, letting it go, whatever) helps me keep things in perspective--which is the exact opposite of where I was when I got TMS. No question that it's helping me heal. One of my favorite expressions is, "Is it going to matter in 6 months or a year? If not, then it probably doesn't matter now either." Of course, anything can be taken to extremes. That's not what I was suggesting. |
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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 11:02:57
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Shary, your friend sounds a very healthy-minded person! What is being labeled "rationalising" here is actually a very proper use of the mind. It's examining beliefs that have the potential to cause us pain and cutting them down to size. Usually our negative feelings are the first warning to us that we're believing something that is detrimental to us.
The assumption that every problem has to hurt is a false one. Things only hurt when there are unexamined false beliefs behind them, beliefs that defy reality and your very soul.
I can recommend the work of Byron Katie as a very powerful way to gradually become more like your friend.
People who suffer from TMS have developed unhealthy ways of ignoring the warnings their feelings and their body have sent them, and so in a sense numbed themselves to the feedback that healthy people have access to, as to the appropriateness of any belief or action.
They try and hammer the square peg in the round hole, insisting in the face of evidence and their own negative feelings that it SHOULD fit. Eventually the body will resort to creating TMS symptoms, if you continue to ignore its council.
Try this as a guideline - if you're having a negative feeling about anything, it's because your thinking about the subject, either conscious or as yet unexamined, is not in alignment with your higher good.
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
Edited by - floorten on 04/19/2007 11:05:50 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 14:24:56
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quote:
Things only hurt when there are unexamined false beliefs behind them, beliefs that defy reality and your very soul.
I'm sorry, but this is taking a generally interesting and healthy concept too far. Life hands us some bad stuff to deal with. People may die or otherwise leave us, or people who we want or need nurture and care for us may mistreat us or ignore us. Experiencing emotional pain at these times is normal and healthy. It is not a sign of wrong beliefs.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 14:40:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Shary
Way to go, Art. All any of us can do is try. Rationalizing away the small stuff (defusing it, letting it go, whatever) helps me keep things in perspective--which is the exact opposite of where I was when I got TMS. No question that it's helping me heal. One of my favorite expressions is, "Is it going to matter in 6 months or a year? If not, then it probably doesn't matter now either." Of course, anything can be taken to extremes. That's not what I was suggesting.
I'm sorry I clearly did misunderstand...When I hear the temr "rationalization" I immediately think of a willful distortion of reality in a self-serving attempt to evade responsibility....
The kind of thing you talk about above, seems perfectly healthy and reasonable...
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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 04:29:03
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quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
quote:
Things only hurt when there are unexamined false beliefs behind them, beliefs that defy reality and your very soul.
I'm sorry, but this is taking a generally interesting and healthy concept too far. Life hands us some bad stuff to deal with. People may die or otherwise leave us, or people who we want or need nurture and care for us may mistreat us or ignore us. Experiencing emotional pain at these times is normal and healthy. It is not a sign of wrong beliefs.
Hi armchairlinguist!
I quite agree - it is healthy and normal, I wouldn't suggest otherwise. I also stand by the assertion that the negative feelings indicate beliefs that do not serve you well. For simplicity, I call these beliefs "wrong", but really right and wrong are just realative terms with no real meaning.
It's probably easier to see truth in this when you don't go straight for the extreme cases, such as death of a loved one, and don't treat it as a black-and-white good or bad issue.
To take your example of someone we love mistreating us or leaving us. I believe there is certainly a component of natural grieving in what you would feel in such a situation, and that's just built into us and can't be changed. However much of the suffering that is overlaid on this situation may come from beliefs such as "They shouldn't have done this to me", "They shouldn't have left me", "People who love each other don't do that" and other such thoughts. These are the thoughts which need examining.
If you look at them honestly you can see that, firstly, they negate the reality of the situation. As Byron Katie says, if you argue with reality then you lose, and only 100% of the time.
Secondly, they're straying into other people's business. How can YOU know what other people should and should not do? Maybe it was the right thing for their path at that time. How can you know what feelings and thoughts occurred inside them to cause them to behave that way? How can you know these feelings and thoughts are invalid or "wrong"?
Things hurt when you stray into other people's business. That's the soul's way of warning you to back off. If you're dictating to someone else how they should think, feel or behave, or dictating to reality how it should be, like some kind of god, then you can't expect good feelings to come of it.
This is what I mean by thoughts not serving you. Such thoughts should be examined, and you can often find emotional relief in their opposite, or in just letting go of them totally. It's sounds to me that that's exactly how Shary's friend lives his life instinctively, and I'm sure we could all learn a lot from him.
The only reason a person would want to hang onto beliefs that don't serve them is because they've made these beliefs part of their identity, and the self-serving, negative part of their ego feeds on the negativity they create to reinforce its own sense of separation from others and identity.
Well, that's my 2 cents worth anyway ! :-) |
Edited by - floorten on 04/20/2007 04:37:53 |
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Shary
147 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 08:52:47
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Thanks to all of you for your input. This has been interesting. I had no idea my use of the word "rationalize" would stir up such a controversy.
Floorten, thanks for your recommendation regarding Byron Katie. I've never heard of him, but I will check it out. As for my friend, I don't really want to be exactly like him. Although he is a deeply compassionate person, his laid-back attitude toward many things is a little too far at the extreme end of the spectrum for me to want to copy--even if I could manage to successfully do so. What I would like is to be able to grasp the essence of his concept so that I might apply it selectively in my own life, hence my initial reference to SELECTIVE rationalizing. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 11:08:36
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Floorten, thanks for your thoughtful response, and I agree with what you say. I thought about going longer and getting into the shoulds/shouldn'ts, which I understand from the material I've seen about BK are one of the main culprits. Dropping these is related to what Pema Chodron calls "dropping the storyline". She talks about how we sometimes work ourselves up about a bad situation and seek justification from others of how we are in the right so it's okay to feel how we do. It's very hard not to do this, but just knowing that it's something to attempt has been hugely helpful for me in getting through some situations that were hard and painful. I also think of it as staying open to the questions and the ambiguity in the situation, not assigning all the participants to roles. I think this is very much in line with "The Work", because in that process you are constantly questioning assumptions and turning things around. To remain open to the ambiguity requires the ability to keep turning things around. In my case it was a painful breakup. I did a lot of time finding myself assigning the guy to a role where he was thoughtless and shallow, and when that would happen I would remind myself that he was an independent person looking after his own state and maybe that was truly what he needed to do. It is still hard to look at the situation that way! But worthwhile.
The fact is that we feel how we do regardless and there is no need to justify it or keep pursuing the beliefs that cause it as if they are real. Getting back to the core issue that we do not like what the other person did...that's much harder to do! But we will still have pain. Maybe the distinction is that while we still have pain, we will not have as much suffering.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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entheogens
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 11:25:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Shary
Shawnsmith and Art,
I thought the same thing until I got to know the guy over a period of years. As the saying goes, he doesn't sweat the small stuff--and for some people it's all small stuff. That doesn't necessarily mean a personality disorder or a hidden powder keg (so put away the psychiatry books, guys). In any case, I think you missed my point.
Yes, some of the responses remind me of the problem that some psychologist were having with the Freudian legacy in the 60s. If you are always looking at pathology, you start to think that EVERYBODY is pathological. Even if someone in a healthy state comes before such a "pathologizer" they still try to frame the person according to their pathological model because that is the only model they have.
Of course, not knowing your friend as you do, we really shouldnt speculate. A lot of people will come out of a hell like the Vietnam war psychologically crippled, while others come out stronger. I can at least imagine going through such a tragedy and coming out the other end thinking "if I can survive that, I can take anything". |
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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 15:07:48
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quote:
Originally posted by entheogens
Yes, some of the responses remind me of the problem that some psychologist were having with the Freudian legacy in the 60s. If you are always looking at pathology, you start to think that EVERYBODY is pathological.
LOL! Quite agree. I think this used to be called "if the only tool you've got is a hammer, every problem will look like a nail"!!
As TMS suffers, we probably are the last people to really be giving advice on managing feelings, because if we were so good at it we wouldn't have got TMS in the first place ;-)
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
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floorten
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 15:12:31
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armchairlinguist: Regarding re-examining thoughts of suffering regarding painful events in the past, I've found probably the most valuable aspect of "the work" to be the part where you turn the thought around to refer to yourself, instead of the person who is hurting you.
So many times now I've just been shocked when I did that, as I see that I was doing EXACTLY the same thing to them without knowing it, in some guise or other.
At the moment you realise you're every bit "to blame" as they are, all blame just drops away, and forgiveness flows in naturally.
One of my favourite quotes ever is from Neale Donald Walsh. He says that forgiveness is the realisation that there was nothing wrong to forgive in the first place. Doing the "Work" certainly has brought me to that place on many occasions.
Peace,
greg.
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"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
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carbar
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2007 : 22:32:18
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For some understanding of why some folks "roll with the punches" and "don't sweat the small stuff" and others don't, check out anything written by Martin Seligman, one of the founders of positive psychology. He's one of the shrinks out there saying, let's stop pathologizing mental health and start helping folks empower themselves...links below...
Authentic Happiness http://www.powells.com/biblio/2-9780743222983-0
Learned Optimism http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9781400078394-0
Learned Optimism offered me a lot of understanding when I first read MBP and started applying it to my life, and I've just started on Authentic Happiness. |
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ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 12:39:34
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Floorten, another good quote I read recently about Forgiveness, is:
"To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was YOU."
Ralph |
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The fine art of rationalizing
