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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
 Posted - 11/30/2006 : 18:07:28
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After talking to the barber the other day, I was thinking about this rage buildup that becomes the RSI known manifestation of TMS thing. The good doctor sais, bluntly put, either knowledge or rage release diminishes the complaints; focussing on blaming your body (posture) contradicts this thus making the complaints chronic.
I asked my barber, who was working kind of fast, if she ever had RSI. She said she once started feeling pain, and after a few weeks she had an inflammation (just like me, under different circumstances) disabling her from work for two more weeks, and after that she never had a RSI like sympton again.
A girl I know who is a graphic designer told me she 'grew' RSI some years ago, and it really frightened her. She cut down using the computer to a minimum and as a result, in her opinion, after a month or two the symptons subsided. She said to herself that if the symptons ever came back she would cut down computerwork immediately, because she never wanted anything like that again. Luckily, it never happened again.
This guy I know from school sais a very subtle form of RSI started to show up in his arms when working on a laptop during his traintrips (I remember my RSI, 6 years ago, started exactly the same innocent way, but then because of playing guitar at warp factor 20), so he stopped using the laptop and although he uses a desktop computer extensively, he never experienced RSI again.
These people all focussed on the body, habits and posture. No matter how you put it, they overcame their RSI. And I was wondering how you people think these events are to be explained. It puzzles me.
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
Edited by - Redsandro on 11/30/2006 18:10:14 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 11/30/2006 : 18:55:21
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For some people, a mild restriction of activity is enough. Maybe their reservoir of rage isn't so full, and when time passes, life calms, there's no need for the RSI. Maybe the ongoing mild restriction is enough distraction.
I had a knee thing going for years that only ever cropped up when I tried to run, and not always then.
I've had a friend who first went to using MS Natural keyboard, then Kinesis, then had a severe flareup and used voice dictation for a while. Then it de-escalated, but it comes back at stressful times.
The avoidances/equipment/posture are generally placebos, but if they work well enough, that's cool for those people. But by the time you're chronic, your rage reservoir is far enough up there that you need the Good Doctor's prescription.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 06:09:13
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Thanks for the replies.
Armchairlinguist, do you mean you think there's a certain amount of rage that can go away again on it's own? Or that stressy times lower the rage gauge somewhat so a distraction is concluded nessesary sooner during that time?
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I would get RSI so bad I could not lift a glass of water
That's where I was too before I knew about TMS! And it most definitely helped me a lot to read and journal, because here I am typing a lot and working half weeks. But when the pain comes back (NOT as severe as before TMS though), I can journal and read what I want, but only after a few days it's gone again. I'm hoping to learn my mind to listen to me so I can let go of the pain the same day as well.
But about the start of RSI again, since it starts so very subtle (maybe not for everyone, I don't know) it's almost like the brain is preparing for *later* when the pain is severe. If it's instant, you would hardly believe it's RSI. I wonder if the brain is simply smart, or that it accidentally works that way. Just like accidental changes work in nature.
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 09:15:23
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Some people have a rage reservoir that looks like this when things are calm, and going well:
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But like this when things are stressful:
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So they get TMS at those stressful times, and it goes away between.
Most RSI (and a lot of TMS generally from what I can tell) starts out intermittent, so that would be virtually all of us. Only temporary distraction is needed, so placebos like posture and mild activity restriction seem to "work", being adequate for distraction from the mild overflow.
But if the reservoir gets to where it's always full, chronic distraction is needed to keep the mind off the rage.
I'm not sure why some people have gradual onset and some sudden onset. (Both are certainly known -- Nate McNamara had a pretty sudden one.) It might be due to the emotional pressure patterns (sudden big event) or to the distractions' success or lack of it.
It sounds to me like yours is still coming and going because you still have a lot to deal with. Over time with more journaling, your reservoir should feel less full. Also de-conditioning and talking to the brain can help shorten attacks.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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carbar
USA
227 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 23:55:33
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quote:
I'm not sure why some people have gradual onset and some sudden onset. (Both are certainly known -- Nate McNamara had a pretty sudden one.) It might be due to the emotional pressure patterns (sudden big event) or to the distractions' success or lack of it.
This is curious. Of course, "sudden" for me with the right hand coincided with a big performance in addition to emotional stress. The left hand was gradual, and of course, the cause HAD to be overcompensating for the lack of strength in the right hand. That was such a great thing to beat myself up over. :)
Glad to be done with that. I used to be quite the ergonomics expert for all my friends that were worried about the occassional pains in their wrists. I wonder if that "saved" anyone from TMS? Hmmm....
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2006 : 10:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by carbar
I used to be quite the ergonomics expert for all my friends that were worried about the occassional pains in their wrists. I wonder if that "saved" anyone from TMS?
Heh, I used to have something similar where friends said I should write a book :P I'm glad I didn't do it, would feel kind of stupid to have written something which I would nowdays label 'bull-excrements' :P
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
Over time with more journaling, your reservoir should feel less full. Also de-conditioning and talking to the brain can help shorten attacks.
Come to think of it, I indeed feel like I have two kinds of pain left. The one that comes and goes sort of randomly, better or worse, even in weekends when I don't touch a computer at all. That should be the reservoir at a level similar to the one of the gastank in the car when the 'EMPTY - using reserves' sign flicks on and off.. and the other one, either when I work on the computer for 200 minutes without a break because TMS cured people say I can, or when I occasionally try to play a 3d shooter (pc game) for the same reason, I regain my to-be-expected pain also, even though I know I shouldn't.
Now I've read MBP, Amir's Rapid Recovery and am currently reading TDM but I might have missed or misunderstood it.. how does de-conditioning work?
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 09:00:20
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either when I work on the computer for 200 minutes without a break because TMS cured people say I can
I'm pretty sure this RSI-cured person didn't advise going all out straight away. You can read my story if you go to my profile.
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how does de-conditioning work?
Aside from understanding the process and reminding yourself of it, remember the quote from Edna St. Vincent Millay: “Pity me that the heart is slow to learn / What the swift mind beholds at every turn.”
It takes time to sink in. No magic wand, I'm afraid.
Hilary N |
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 05:21:37
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I read your story before, during the beginning of my TMS battle. It was quite inspiring for me, as are all RSI success stories for which I did a search back then. 
About the computer usage, I wasn't advised to overdo it, but when I asked about how much computerwork a person could do in a go, the answer I liked whas 'However much you want.'
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2742
Since in the beginning my recovery was quite sudden, I just wanted to try it. I got pain. So extensive use has become my measure of success. Now I don't do that much since the TMS came back a bit, but it's my dream to be able to work all day and still play a game in the evening. Not that it'll be my way to live, but I want to be able to do that. 
Thanks for the quote. I think it suggests 'using the computer and knowing it is okay' until you dont have to know it's okay anymore. But then, occasionally on a painfree day, I have to test how far I can go, right?
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 08:16:18
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Making a comparison to my playing tennis and your RSI, I play tennis on the weekends an average of 4 hours on Sat & Sun. I hit the ball hard and change grips. I have no pain and no cramping. I would think key-boarding would be much less traumatic to the hand, wrist and the forearm flexor muscles. Keyboarding would seem to stretch out the hand muscles due to the constant stretching of the fingers.
Using that analogy, I would think you could key-board until you fall asleep if you liked without doing any damage to your hands. You may be sore for a couple of weeks until the hand and wrist muscles build-up strength--but trauma or RSI seems far-fetched. Your hands would cramp or fatigue before getting injured. Dr. Sarno said something I found amusing, to the effect that you can't hurt your back from lifting something too heavy--because if it were too heavy, you couldn't have lifted it.
To have trauma or injury you need an impact or terribly bad technique for years. I can't see that kind of trauma occuring from key-boarding. Dr. Sarno says in one of his books that people typed at manual typewriters for nearly a century with NO epedemic of RSI. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 12/04/2006 20:56:04 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 10:34:33
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I used the methods of deconditioning that Amir suggests that involve punishment and reward. For keyboarding at work I told myself I could have an ice cream bar if I got through one morning with no pain, and then one afternoon.
The next day I repeated, but with an orange. The following day I upped the ante to the whole day.
Things that are important for success with this:
Make sure the reward is something the child inside will be really happy with. (Amir used yogurt and ice cream -- you have to choose something your child likes.)
Spend a lot of time visualizing and anticipating the reward, so that it assumes a large importance.
If pain threatens, pause and think of the reward.
Choose an interval you can achieve. I was doing well when I did this, but still having problems in the late morning and late afternoon. Choose something just a bit longer than you can currently go, and extend the time gradually.
I tried the reward thing for back pain on the train, but it didn't work. So the next day I set up a reward/punishment scheme. I would have to clean the stove if I got pain, or I could have a special dessert if I didn't. I had to clean the stove, but after that I didn't get the pain in that situation anymore (not regularly, anyway).
It sounds like your reservoir is down to that point where it goes up and down over the "fill" line, and the other stuff is conditioning. It might still take time to decondition, but do what you're comfortable with, and try the reward/punishment techniques, and it should help.
Edited to add: Ditto on the ergonomics expert/book thing. I used to give people advice a lot...now I feel kind of silly.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
Edited by - armchairlinguist on 12/04/2006 10:36:51 |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 13:23:53
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quote:
But then, occasionally on a painfree day, I have to test how far I can go, right?
Yes, absolutely.
Hilary N |
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 16:33:28
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I don't want to bump this thread since I got nothing to add, but thanks for the replies! I'm gonna have to give it more time and report back.
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2006 : 12:36:28
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Ok I'm getting desparate here..
Ever since I wrote that I had a flare-up in my pain that keeps increasing a bit every day. This flare-up is even longer than the times when it goes the right way!
I am reading the books, I continue journalling and there hasn't been any change in my life that explains the cause of this, I know the cure works 'cause I've 'been there,' but now this.. I am loosing the grip and I don't know what to do.
What do you do when.. when it just doesn't seem to work as good as before?
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2006 : 10:42:55
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I wish I had something better to add, but just want to say I agree with Corey that past triggers are often it. Sometimes something we barely notice in our present triggers stuff that went on in the past and reminds us of it, it starts to strive for consciousness (all unconscious stuff strives for consciousness, but more so when it's been triggered, I guess) and all bets are temporarily off for TMS improvement. I've had a lot of neck stiffness and anxiety lately and haven't quite pinned down what it is, though I have some ideas.
Alice Miller in The Drama of the Gifted Child relates stories of people who had depression (TMS equivalent) on and off during their therapy, and found that to lift each new episode, there was another feeling, another experience to come to the fore and be mourned.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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Redsandro
Netherlands
217 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2006 : 13:44:55
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Thanks for the posts.
Since I wrote that previous post, the pain sort of stayed the same, and only during this weekend it subsided somewhat. That took long, but finally!
I read your reactions back then but forgot to respond.. Esp. the latter link from Littlebird provides grounds for trust in the situation, even though logic is still unreachable, but that will probably remain the fact for all of us. I had a lot to do this weekend, and past week, and I kept thinking to myself that I should reserve some time to do TMS work. Journaling. Whatever, but I have to get better. The fact is, when I do it I can't seem to make a difference, and now I didn't do it, complaints subsided. Makes me tinker about the effectiveness of journaling and thinking TMS. Is it all just random and am I trying hard to find the pattern which there isn't?
Two months since discovering TMS and my pain comes often and goes (seemingly) randomly. I think I'm an instance of a TMS patient with either too much conditioning over the past years or too much emotional luggage to get a near-instant cure.
Oh well.. at least I know my inner 'parent superego' is sort of a extremist, deciding my 'child id' should cope with all the rage and sadness in my life while my 'self' should only deal with the happiness and not a worry in the world.
Is The Drama of the Gifted Child recommendable? (If it's not a lot of air like [opinion]Fred Amir's[/opinion])
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Do not base your joy upon the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2006 : 22:48:00
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I like The Drama of the Gifted Child. But I liked Fred Amir's book too. :P
There are no treatment suggestions in TDOGC, but I think the psychological material is right on.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2006 : 07:39:14
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I also liked Drama of the Gifted Child. Reading it brought out some suppressed anger from my childhood. I was in the public library the first time I read it, and cried because of the aching sadness I felt.
ndb |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2006 : 13:49:48
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Thanks for keeping us updated, Redsandro.
quote:
Two months since discovering TMS and my pain comes often and goes (seemingly) randomly. I think I'm an instance of a TMS patient with either too much conditioning over the past years or too much emotional luggage to get a near-instant cure.
I know it’s frustrating when you have no apparent control over the pain.
I think there is sometimes a delayed effect. Or perhaps journaling focuses you on the problem, whereas just going off and doing something else takes your mind off it so the distraction is no longer working? Who knows?
Hilary N |
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Non-chronic RSI
