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jimmyjimmy
USA
19 Posts |
 Posted - 10/25/2006 : 03:31:36
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| I have actually shrunk three inches due to tms. Has anyone else ever had this happen? I have had severe tms pain in my back, hips, and legs for three years.I used to be 5'9" and am now 5'6". Not kidding |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 15:32:13
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That sounds serious to me...Are you aware of being stooped over? Might that account for it?
I don't know how old you are, and I'm no doctor, but one thing I'd probbaly worry about would be bone loss...Have you been checked for osteoporosis? I don't think TMS would cause something that drastic...
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Edited by - art on 10/25/2006 15:33:25 |
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Littlebird
USA
391 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 19:29:24
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I've read that the spine completely rebuilds itself every three years, and that as we age it tends to rebuild itself a little shorter each time it goes through the process. I've lost an inch of height, my husband has lost about the same and both of my parents lost about two inches as they aged. I also read that the less active you are the more you are likely to lose. In all of our cases, it doesn't seem to be connected to any other health issue or symptoms.
Are you aware of anyone else in your family losing height? Some people don't notice it. My dad insisted that my tallest son, who is 5'10" tall had to be 6' tall, because they were the same height and my dad had been 6' tall when he was younger, but he just wouldn't accept the idea that he'd shrunk. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 19:51:43
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| I agree with Art. Normal loss of height with age is a very gradual process and is due to the compression of the disks (same reason we are taller in the morning than night). Three inches in three yrs sounds like something to check out. |
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weatherman
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2006 : 21:41:12
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Here's kind of a reverse twist that may be relevant. About 20 years ago I did Rolfing at age 27. Belive it or not, I actually "grew" an inch or 2 taller. Or, more correctly I appeared taller becuase my posture had changed during that process. This was noticed by several people who had no knowledge of my Rolfing experience. The height chnage was temporary in the long run. I'm neither advocating nor dissing Rolfing - it was appropriate for me at that time - just using it for illustration.
Maybe you haven't really gotten that much shorter, but an extended period of pain has gotten you habitually hunched over etc. so you appear shorter?
weatherman |
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jimmyjimmy
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2006 : 06:25:21
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Thanks for the responses. I have definitely been hunching over because of the pain. I can see my back kind of bowing out in between my shoulder blades. I measured myself by standing up as straight as I could and low and behold I was a full three inches shorter.
It scared the hell out of me and I have made and appointment with Dr. Schecheter for next monday, so I will see what he says. I have been seeing Don Dubin for about a year, his theory of TMS is a little different than Sarno's.
Don doesn't focus on anger at all, but in being present and acceprting that the pain is telling me that there iw a part of me that feels incapable and like a failure, and instead of fighting it I should accept it. That when I stop trying to change my life and accept the life I have the pain will subside.
When I am able to do this fullly I have felt some release, but I can't seem to get the hang of it. I think I need to do more anger work. |
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jimmyjimmy
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2006 : 06:05:06
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I did get my height loss checked and found out that I have something called "ankylosis spondylitis". It is a rare form a arthritis that affects the spine, and has also gone into my hip. My spine is completley bowed inbetween my shoulder blades, and I have, in fact, lost three inches in height that my spine doctor says is permanent. wow.
I think this is a case of something starting off as benign tms turning into a full fledged auto-immmune disease like arthritis. The problem was that I was so sure it was "just" tms and not ever going to do structural damage that it didn't really get it checked.
I, of course, went to an MD familiar with tms and he agreed it was tms. We took some x-rays to be safe, and everything looked normal as recent as december of '05. But in less that 11 months my spine has bowed and fused to the tune of three inches in height loss, and extreme pain and stiffness.
Has anyone ever head of this "ankylosing spondylitits". |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 00:48:07
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Yes, I was diagnosed with AS.
It was BS though!. I'm fine. I would recommend that you just do lots of weight-bearing exercise and repudiate the diagnosis. I know what you mean about the TMS "becoming" something real, but this is kinda like a kid who tests you. If you falter, he is now the tyrant in the household.
Just mho.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 09:37:01
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JJ,
I recommend you read pages 16-17 of TDM where Dr. Sarno disucsses various spine "disorders" commonly mis-dx'ed by the medical/industrial complex and referred to surgery. Although he does not mention AS, he does mention:
".Many other less common conditions"
AS may be one of those. I am confused as to who dx'ed you with the AS. Was it the TMS friendly doc who first saw you or a non-TMS doc?
If they are different docs what does the TMS doc say about this new situtation? Do you trust a non-TMS doc more than a TMS doc?
You say your spine doctor says it is "permanent". On what basis?--soley due to measuring your hight? That doesn't sound very scientific.
You have been handed a very powerful Nocebo. It does not surprise me that a "spine doc" would dx a "spine" disorder and not TMS, that's what he's been trained for, it's his specialty and obviously not TMS--"Don't ask a barber if you need a haircut."
What does your TMS doc have to say? You could also write to Dr. Sarno and ask him if AS could be TMS. He does correspond with non-patients by snail-mail.
Good Luck and don't give up the TMS ship so readily.
tt |
Edited by - tennis tom on 11/17/2006 09:44:31 |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 11:18:05
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I know there is a true condition AS, and I've known a couple people in their 30's who have developed that unmistakable bamboo spine shape.
Just wondering though, is there any such thing as a definitive test for AS, such as a definitive marker in bloodwork, or XRays that show unmistakable early fusing of bones etc? IE: How do they know you have it?
Or is it often just another best guess kind of diagnosis for stiffness and pain, used when there seems to be no other explanation?
I know with my low back and spinal pain years ago I wondered about it. I suspect a lot of folks with low back pain and stiffness might have heard their doctors speculate about or diagnose AS incorrectly, and then get all terrified over nothing.
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Edited by - PeterW on 11/17/2006 11:18:55 |
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Curiosity18
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 19:14:36
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For anklosing spondylitis there is a blood marker which is called HLA-B27, often used to help make the diagnosis. Before I knew about TMS and had neck and back symptoms I was tested for it. But like the markers for lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, many people without these autoimmune diseases test positive. I know someone who also had neck and back pain/stiffness, and who tested positive for the marker of AS. He decided, however that he had TMS and recovered completely.
Curiosity |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 23:01:00
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Some prick docs will diagnose AS just because you are HLAB27 positive. Let me tell you what I have learned about AS recently (my doc thinks that I may have it).
1) the HLAB27 serologic marker is not very specific. While 90% of the AS sufferer test HLAB27 positive, it is also true that 8% of the general population also test positive for this marker without presenting the desease. This means that If you do not have HLAB27, its pretty sure that you dont have the desease but if you test positive, it does not prove nothing in itself. You need to join other evidences to that.
2) there is NO definitive marker that can diagnose you 100% sure for AS. The diagnosis is done by cumulating a certain number of evidences including Radiologic evidences, patient history and the way the symptoms evolves over time (they can monitor your symtpoms over months if not years to see how it does change).
3) the AS blood tests are : HLAB27, C reactive protein (which is very unspecific also but a good general inflammatory marker), Sedimentation rate (another inflammatory marker that is not specific to AS but a good indicator that can correlate inflammation to your present pain).
4)You will also want to get an X-ray of the sacro-iliac joint because the desease often start in this area and grow up the spine. If the Xray does not show any sacroiliac damage, it does not mean you do not have AS though. You should ask for an MRI, beceause its more precise in detecting early soft tissues damage in this articulation. An Xray of the entire spine is also indicated to reveal syndesmophytes and rapidly evolving bone spurs (that have nothing to do with the 'gray hairs of the spine' that sarno talks about) that can be associated to the desease.
5)Having an history of Uveitis (serious inflammation of the anterior part of the eye) does add to the positive AS diagnosis. Also, an history of mouth ulceration in conjunction to spine or buttocks pain is also a sign of AS. Fingers that are swollen (they call is sausage fingers or toes), is another sign of AS.
I strongly believe that if you test positive for many of these markers and if they diagnose you with AS, its very important to follow the medication diligently as this desease can do VERY IMPORTANT DAMAGE to the body. I have a coworker whose spine is 100% fused. When he lays down on his back on the floor, his head just stays in the air by itself, his spine is just fused that way !!!!... pretty scary isnt it ? ....
Anyways ... I would like to add something to this .... By saying to follow the medication following a positive AS diagnosis, I do not mean in any way that I do not believe that AS and other autoimmune desease cannot be beaten by doing TMS work .... Norman Cousins ('the anatomy of an illness') is an inspiring example of this. In fact I strongly believe now that AS, crohn, lupus, etc are just a nastier form of TMS, nastier than fibromyalgia because it can kill you, but still a form if TMS... We should keep in mind that in the TDM, Sarno even says that TMS can lead to cancer if emotions continue to be repressed ...
What is encouraging is that many people are recovering from various autoimmune deseases by learning how to manage their stress and stopping repressing their emotions... It is a scientific fact, without doubt that autoimmune desease crisis are triggered by emotional factors ...
I did heal my crohn desease 10 years ago by adressing the proper emotional issues (I took cortisone for a 6 months period though, and I thank god I did it because my bowel would look very bad these days if I didnt)... I just want to tell that even if my current back problems were diagnosed as Ankylosing Spondylitis, I firmly believe that I would be able to heal by applying the TMS principles... Does it mean that in between, in the state of inflammatory crisis, I would not take the medications that would prevent my body to deteriorate ? not at all.... in fact its the inverse.
Medication can be good, As long as you use it as a stepping stone to get somewhere else ...
P.
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Edited by - FlyByNight on 11/17/2006 23:15:21 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2006 : 09:01:42
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There you have it JJ, with FBN's thorough detailing of the disease you probably know as much about it as your average doc. Now you have to sort it all out and separate the facts from the fictions when your docs hit you up with their "definitive" dx's.
When my cat had diabetes, I took him to approx. 20 different vets and got a gamut of dx's from incurable to glucoseamine-chrondroitin injections.
Learn as much about "AS" as you can and see as many "experts" until you understand as much as they do. Then you will be in a position to know what is working and what isn't and if it's TMS, not TMS, or both. |
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jimmyjimmy
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2006 : 23:26:28
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So here is the update.
I was diagnosed by a spine doc with Ankylizing Spondylitis, and then the test HLAB27 and the reactive C protien marker came back negative.
So then I was given a bone density scan and it came back that i have a very severe case of, get ready for this, osteoporosis!. I am a 41 yr old male and I have an advanced case of osteoporosis.
We are now embarked on the course of trying to find the cause of it. I have lived with a spastic colon for about ten years. It started when I entered a very stressful part of my life and I knew it was TMS so I ignored it. ANd learned to live with it.
Wow, what a mistake that was. WE have tested everyting to find the cause of the osteo and they have all come back negative, and then I was sitting with an endocrinologist and I said, "I have had a spastic colon for the last 12 years". And it hit me that this is the cause,. I have since looked up colitis, and things like it, and yep, this can lead to lots of horrible things, one of them being osteoporosis.
I am scheduled to se a Gastro-Intestinal doc on the 19th of december.
I am still trying to wrap my brain around all this. I am three inches shorter, permanently. ANd I have an appointment with a rheumatologist next week, and I am pretty sure this has also caused arthritis all over my body.
I am currently taking NSAID's and they hae helped with my mobility.
Wow, I had absolutely no idea that TMS could be so horrible, but it can, and is.
I have been seeing Don Dubin for a year. I agree with his approach, but I can not internalize it, and so i am stuck with my tms. I can not stop trying to achieve, and I can not stop being a goodist. If I could just stop caring about what people think of me, I could have my life back, but it has turned out to be an insurmountable task for me.
I can not thank you all enough for your responses, thank god for the TMS forum.
Jimmy |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 08:27:15
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Hi JJ,
Thanks for the update. I'm a little unclear on your condition due to the limitations of this medium of trying to put a long story into a few paragraphs. When I read my previous post to you, I could barely recognize or understand what I had written, until I read it several times in context.
If you could please claryfy a few points, I would greatly appreciate it. It sounds like you had "real colitis" that caused "real osteo-porosis". You ignored the colitis because you thought it was TMS. Perhaps the colitis was initialy caused from TMS, psychosomatc origins, but resulted in a "legitimate" disease, that should have been treated to prevent your shrinking 3 inches.
My confusion is that I'm not clear on what you were greatful for from the TMS perspective. Was it because you finally discovered the "legitimate" disease that you are now treating? Or, because of TMS thinking, you are dealing with it in a muti-fasceted mindbody approach?
My concern is, that, real "legitimate" medical conditions, should not be ignored, by using what is thought to be a "mind over matter" TMS approach.
When Dr. Sarno first takes on a patient, he does a physical exam and reviews the plethora of medical records and images most of his patients present him with. He is usually not the first doctor they have seen, but more like the doctor of last resort. In the exam he does find "legitimate" diseases that are treated with cnventional medical methods.
Psychosomatic symptoms can be benign and harmless like a cramp. The Good Doctor does say that the mind can CAUSE legitimate diseases, even cancer perhaps, that need comprehensive medical treatment.
So, where I'm confused and would appreciate your claryfying for me, where does your belief in TMS fit into your picture. I am getting the impression that you may have ignored your colitis for a long time, possibly resulting in osteo-porosis, because you were treating it as "TMS/all in the mind".
I have also worked with Don Dubin. What approach does he feel you should taken for the colitis/osteoporosis? Does he feel you can treat it with a TMS thinking approach or that you should also treat it with a medical/pharmaceutical approach? Have you seen Dr. Schechter, an MD and former student of Dr. Sarno's, who is a TMS doctor? His office is several blocks from Don Dubin's in Beverly Hills. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 12/07/2006 08:44:53 |
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jimmyjimmy
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 11:22:59
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Thanks for your response TT,
My general doc is Schechter, we are seeing a bunch of pecialists to try and nail down the exact cause of the osteoporosis. We have checked everything except the Gastro-intestinal disorder, and that is probably because I never thought to bring it up because I was so used to haveing chrinic diarreah and gastric and colon pain.
For the longest timne I was convinced that I onlhy had TMS induced Fibro, the pain was unbelievable and it was all over, thank god I have a job that requires very little from me physically.
I am waiting to get in with a GastroIntestinal doc, can't get an appoinment till the 19th. I am pretty sure that TMS caused my colon probs, which then led to the osteoporosis. I did have it checked by Schechter a few times just to make sure. Last december he took a back x-ray and said it was normal. I saw him in a little over a month ago when I noticed the I was losing height. He took xrays that showed a severe bow in my back, and almost bone on bone in my hip.
So it was off to a spine doc, he dx Ankelosing Spondylitis. Then I took the test for the protien C marker and it was negative, so the thought was I didn't have that. So I had a bone density test, and it urned out to be severe osteoporosis.
the sad thing is that it would have been caught earlier if I wasn't so sure it was only "harmless TMS". I was convinced that I had only TMS pain, and that it was just very severe.
I walked around for three years in horrible pain, I really should've been in a wheel chair. I think we have to start telling people that tms can lead to real physical problems, like mine.
So the TMS caused the chronic diarreah, and the colon probs , that led to mal absorbtion of vitamin D and calcium, and then Osteoporosis.
Again, I have to wait to see a Gastro-intestinal doc till the 19th.
Dubins approach, this is a very rough description, is to get you understand that there is a kind of default setting in my unconscious that says whatever I am right now is not good enough. So I am always trying to achieve success, but no matter what kind of great things I achieve, it never brings me the sort of contentment I think it will, so I keep striving, and tms-ing.
Dubin says to accept that no matter what I accomplish I will feel like a failure. I know it is true because I have accomplished things I never would have thought possible, yet i feel unaccomplished.
In Fact, my carreer life has exceeded my dreams many times over, yet I find that I feel like a failure. Dubin says to do things without being tied to an outcome, just do things because I want to do them, no expectation, and when I can do that I am better off, but I can't stop trying to achieve and I can't stop beeing a goodist.
So I am going to try another tms therapist that works more with anger and rage. Maybe that will work better.
So that is where I am. thanks for all your input.
Jimmy |
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shawnsmith
Czech Republic
2048 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 11:45:12
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Don Dubin is correct when he says that the pain is telling you that there is a part of you that feels incapable and like a failure, and instead of fighting it you should accept that inward belief as being part of your personality. No matter what you do in life or how much your accomplish you will feel like a failure and a fraud.
By today's standards that is a messed up way to think and no one would want to admit possessing such an embarassing personality trait or belief system. It is much less painful and less embarassing to repress such feelings and tell youself "I am successful," or "I am highly competent," or "I am smart with lots of abilities." We all want to feel this way about ourselves and not feel incapable or like a failure. But somewhere along the line- usually as we get older and expectations are heaped upon us to perform or when we reach our senior years and look back on our lives - it begins to surface. When it does so it threatens our idea of how we see ourselves (ie successful, smart and competent) so TMS symptoms come to the fore to distract us from these nasty and embarassing feelings.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 15:28:14
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Thanks for the clarifications Jimmy. How do you feel about Dr. Schechter not finding the "back problem" and dealing with your GI issues sooner? Do you think he should have spotted the "legitimate" structural issues earlier?
Regards,
tt |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2006 : 17:00:15
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jimmyjimmy, I'm sorry to hear that you are not doing so well physically. I'm curious about this thing you said though:
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I agree with his approach, but I can not internalize it, and so i am stuck with my tms. I can not stop trying to achieve, and I can not stop being a goodist.
I don't entirely understand your description of Dubin's approach, but Sarno certainly suggests that we don't have to stop being what we are to stop experiencing TMS symptoms. We do have to be aware and have other ways to discharge the feelings. Does Dubin not agree with that?
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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I've actually shrunk three inches
