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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
 Posted - 07/14/2006 : 20:47:18
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Thanx ACL,
I so appreciate your suggestions! I am at a loss right now...The pain is pretty unbearable the last 2 days, especially at night..I have been watching the Sarno Video tapes over and over and that does help me to calm down a bit...It also helps me to see myself in what he is teaching and realize that I do have TMS...I have thought about having trigger point massage..but i couldn't in the neck...My neck is way too sensitive and I am sure it would have a nocebo effect or a conditioned response of more pain...My friend massages my shoulders and back and that does help inadvertently increase blood flow I believe to the neck...
Hugs,
Karen |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 13:41:39
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Tom said: "The above advice is toltaly out of keeping with TMS theory. A cure that was achieved in 5 minutes was a placebo effect."
If it was TMS, yes, I doubt it could have been cured in 5 minutes. But how do you know that it was? It might have been something else. Surprise, skilled bodyworkers can do some pretty amazing things, and not everything is pure TMS.
It is so sad, and wrong, to think that 'believing' in TMS decrees that we have to dis EVERY alternative treatment for EVERY condition for EVERY human on this planet.
Dave said: "If you find chiropractic, massage, or even voodoo effective for your pain, that's great. But then, you're in a totally different world from TMS."
Are you saying that anyone who is helped by massage, even temporarily, does NOT have TMS? If so, and if I may be so bold, I would strongly disagree. In fact I would say that temporary alleviation of pain from massage (but only temporary) is a strong indicator that it is TMS.
But if you're saying that you should not rely on this form of treatment even if it seems to help temporarily, but to focus on the inner work instead, then I'm totally on board. I do believe this is what you mean. Still, I would NOT lump massage in with 'voodoo'.
Armchairlinguist said "I'm really reluctant to recommend this [what I'm about to recommend] to you because I'm concerned it will further your focus on the pain. And I might get jumped on by Tom or Dave for saying it anyway."
It's sad that sometimes on this forum we are made to be afraid of bringing up stuff like this. I for one applaud you for saying it, now I'm know I'm not the only leper around here. I agree with everything you said, including the qualifier on it potentially furthering focus on the pain.
Occasionally, people bring to the forum a different opinion of the parameters of pain and mindbody workings than those defined by the good doctor and his followers. For the most part I think this is a good thing. Yes, different perspectives have the potential to distract, but they can also help fill out our base of knowledge. Our overall understanding of the processes involved in Mindbody/TMS and other 'physical' ailments are very much a work in progress. For what it's worth, I'm definitely a believer in the trigger point approach to pain and have used it at times to good effect, for what it is, the potential for temporary alleviation of pain and increase in mobility (helps the blood flow). Temporary of course with TMS, and NOT to be relied upon as THE ANSWER. But it can help functioning for awhile, and if someone is in so much pain they're having a really rough time with basic functioning, with getting out of bed and doing the journalling and emotional work, even with putting food on the table, then I believe that perhaps they need temporarily to draw on all the tools at their disposal. Not as a SOLUTION, but as a way through a crisis situation.
But before anyone checks in with the typical knee-jerk 'placebo' argument, I can assure you most candidly that it isn't! Dont believe me - just check out the reviews for the Trigger Point book on Amazon (many, including myself, use the same argument to show the worth of Dr Sarno's books).
I mention this because I cant help wondering if there might be a better way to help those who land here, stuck in severe pain, to function a little better in the short term, to get them over the hump so they can better focus on the inner journey ahead, which is the real solution. Plus, I've seen some who come to this board get driven away by the insistance that they must believe that every other form of treatment is placebo. In my opinion this is much more an argument of convenience than a statement of fact.
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Edited by - PeterW on 07/16/2006 07:46:30 |
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Singer_Artist
USA
1516 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 18:29:15
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Thanx Again ACL and you make some very valid points PeterW.. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 19:06:30
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If "temporary alleviation of pain" is really a placebo cure, then it is not helping. But if you can think of it strictly as relief from symptoms (as in taking a pill) then I see no problem. It's a matter of what you really believe inside.
I understand why you see it is a narrow view, but I believe it is important to commit to the TMS way of thinking if you want sustained relief. This means accepting that certain physical symptoms have a psychological origin. There is nothing to "fix". Your mind is playing tricks.
Of course, every symptom is not TMS. But many are, and over time you can learn to accept that the physical symptoms are benign, and maybe even recognize why your brain is manufacturing them. Anything that derails you from this is, in my opinion, contradictory to Dr. Sarno's theory. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 19:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
Indy, all you say is nicely put, but look at the top of the page, it says :
TMSHELP FORUM
Almost everything you talk about is in direct conflct and opposition to THE GOOD DOCTOR'S THEORY and everthing he writes about in all his books. He prescibes to his patients that he dx's with TMS, to repudiate all "quick fix" cures such as : injections, medication, manipulation.
This has nothing to do with me being negative or shmegative--it has to do with the title of this forum. Have you read any of Sarno's books and if so, which ones and how many times?
Do you derive income from what you preach here? If so you are far from objective.
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I thought about writing a long, point by point, reply,...and then said to myself, nah.., so I'll just bump up my previous post.
I can see how Austin Gary, the founder of this, TMS-HELP FORUM ,
wearied of those, who don't read Sarno's books thouroughly and with attention, learn the fundamentals of TMS theory and then enter into an intelegent discussion based on TMS fundamentals.
May the Celestial Architect help ya' Dave. I think I'll take a vacation.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 19:44:55
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quote:
Originally posted by PeterW
Tom said: "The above advice is toltaly out of keeping with TMS theory. A cure that was achieved in 5 minutes was a placebo effect."
If it was TMS, yes, I doubt it could have been cured in 5 minutes. But how do you know that it was? It might have been something else. Surprise, skilled bodyworkers can do some pretty amazing things, and not everything is pure TMS.
It is so sad, and wrong, to think that 'believing' in TMS decrees that we have to dis EVERY alternative treatment for EVERY condition for EVERY human on this planet.
Dave said: "If you find chiropractic, massage, or even voodoo effective for your pain, that's great. But then, you're in a totally different world from TMS."
Are you saying that anyone who is helped by massage, even temporarily, does NOT have TMS? If so, and if I may be so bold, I would strongly disagree. In fact I would say that temporary alleviation of pain from massage (but only temporary) is a strong indicator that it is TMS.
But if you're saying that you should not rely on this form of treatment even if it seems to help temporarily, but to focus on the inner work instead, then I'm totally on board. I do believe this is what you mean. Still, I would NOT lump massage in with 'voodoo'.
Armchairlinguist said "I'm really reluctant to recommend this [what I'm about to recommend] to you because I'm concerned it will further your focus on the pain. And I might get jumped on by Tom or Dave for saying it anyway."
It's sad that sometimes on this forum we are made to be afraid of bringing up stuff like this. I for one applaud you for saying it, now I'm know I'm not the only leper around here. I agree with everything you said, including the qualifier on it potentially furthering focus on the pain.
Occasionally, people bring to the forum a different opinion of the parameters of pain and mindbody workings than those defined by the good doctor and his followers. For the most part I think this is a good thing. Yes, different perspectives have the potential to distract, they can also help fill out our base of knowledge. Our overall understanding of the processes involved in Mindbody/TMS and other 'physical' ailments are very much a work in progress. For what it's worth, I'm definitely a believer in the trigger point approach to pain and have used it at times to good effect, for what it is, the potential for temporary alleviation of pain and increase in mobility (helps the blood flow). Temporary of course with TMS, and NOT to be relied upon as THE ANSWER. But it can help functioning for awhile, and if someone is in so much pain they're having a really rough time with basic functioning, with getting out of bed and doing the journalling and emotional work, even with putting food on the table, then I believe that perhaps they need temporarily to draw on all the tools at their disposal. Not as a SOLUTION, but as a way through a crisis situation.
But before anyone checks in with the typical knee-jerk 'placebo' argument, I can assure you most candidly that it isn't! Dont believe me - just check out the reviews on Amazon (many, including myself, use the same argument to show the worth of Dr Sarno's books).
I mention this because I cant help wondering if there might be a better way to help those who land here, stuck in severe pain, to function a little better in the short term, to get them over the hump so they can better focus on the inner journey ahead, which is the real solution. Plus, I've seen some who come to this board get driven away by the insistance that they must believe that every other form of treatment is placebo. In my opinion this is much more an argument of convenience than a statement of fact.
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No one can be driven away from this forum ! They choose to come here and they choose to leave all of their own acccord. If they can't stand the ocasional TMS heat, they should stay out of the TMS kitchen. And, seek out a TMS psychotherapist, to get to the roots, of their TMS Forum, aversion.
How do they get by in the "real" world if they can't survive what a computer screen throws at them? |
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miche
Canada
283 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 20:34:32
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| When I am in a fibro flare, I do not have much energy , the pain that some of you may have in your back, or neck ,or knees, I have all over my body, this is not a pity party and I STRESS that I believe in tms totally but what I am trying to put across is that at such times ( I DO NOT TAKE MEDS, AND I DO NOT DRINK) ANY KIND OF PAIN RELIEF I CAN AFFORD MASSAGE and trigger release FOR EXAMPLE, helps me meet my responsibilities as a wife, mother sister and friend and gives me a bit more energy to work on the emotional issues I believe are behind the pain, of course it is temporary , of course it is not a cure, I KNOW THIS, but having fibro does not exempt one from having other life issues and problems to deal with, some days I am at my wit's end and a little massage session and temporary pain lessening is also good for my morale and falls in the same category as a little chocolate, a good book, sitting in the park, gazing at the stars, good music, silence, listening to the waves crashing, all food for the soul, all good for whatever ails you. |
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miche
Canada
283 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 20:44:23
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Peter, I could not agree with you more when you say
" I believe that perhaps they need temporarily to draw on all the tools at their disposal. Not as a SOLUTION, but as a way through a crisis situation."
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 21:13:26
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| Dr. Sarno prescribes to his patients that have TMS to repudiate all "quick fix" cures such as : injections, medication, manipulation. |
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Inferno
15 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 21:55:15
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TT,
I hear what you say about "repudiating" all therapies such as massage, manipulation, etc...
I'm a true Sarno advocate, since I am convinced I had TMS in the past. However, I'm here to tell you that I would gladly take a placebo "cure" for my knee if I could. If the "cure" is permanent, but the pain moves elsewhere, great!...Then I can really "know" that it's just TMS on the run. Plus I'd be ride of this knee pain. If the placebo "cure" is only temporary, well that's fine to. Perhaps then I would know that there is hope behind the intractible pain.
I recovered from 4 months of a real painful shoulder by going religiously to a massage therapist 3 times a week for a month. I did not know about TMS at that time, so when this guy told me about trigger points, I was all ears. The massage was not relaxing, in fact it was downright painful as he said he was working on the trigger points etc...
The end result was that my shoulder has been fine ever since. Now, I do believe in hindsight that my shoulder problem was TMS. But it was the massage therapy that I credit for getting me out of the painful episode. Perhaps if I knew about TMS at the time and could apply the principles, I would have made a similar recover....then perhaps, maybe not.
At any rate, if someone told me that I would be cured if a clap my hinds twice and sung the song "Born Free", and it happened to work. I'd be one happy camper.
Regards,
Doug
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bigbadpete
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2006 : 22:47:26
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I'm somewhat relieved that someone else brought up trigger point therapy first, because I was hesitant to mention it. I'm just now recovering from a rather nasty problem that was, either in whole or in part, caused by trigger points.
From about February of '05 through May of '06, I had pain in my upper back/lower neck, and tingling and numbness in my hands. At first, chiropractic seemed to help, but when I realized it wasn't really doing me any good, I saw an osteopath a friend recommended, and his therapy definitely did some good, but it was never a permanent fix either. Finally, after tons of internet research and the same book that armchairlinguist recommended earlier, I found that the problem was really being caused by trigger points in some muscles in my neck. I'll spare everyone the mechanical details. After working on them myself for just under two weeks, I finally felt real, lasting relief from all my problems. I was certain I'd found the real cause of my problems, and that it was rather quickly healing. Note that I'd never heard of TMS at that point.
About a day or two after I realized how much better I was doing and that I was finally going to beat this once and for all, I started feeling sharp, burning pains in my forearms; something I'd never felt before at all, ever. The pain seemed to be concentrated in a narrow line, running down the middle of my forearm, up to my armpit. Funny thing was, my initial symptoms stayed away, for the most part; only had some mild, brief tingling in my hands. Initially, I figured that all the work I'd done massaging my neck muscles had overworked my forearms, then I started thinking it was one form or another of RSI, and tried more massage therapy, and even something called active release therapy (ART). None of them seemed to help a bit. I knew it wasn't being caused by trigger points, since I certainly couldn't find any that would cause that pain. At about the same time, I discovered Nate's and Rachel's websites (http://www.conquerrsi.com/ and http://podolsky.everybody.org/rsi/ respectively) and started wondering if it might be TMS.
Well, my forearms only started to get really better once I gave up on the physical treatments and assumed it was TMS. I hadn't even read any of Dr. Sarno's books before I started feeling a lot better; I mostly looked at the above two websites, and this forum. I'm back to doing everything with my hands that I had before, with no pain. This includes working on the trigger points in my neck; they're still there, just not bad enough to really cause any grief. Once in awhile my arms feel like they're "trying" to hurt again, but I basically blow it off, since if it was some kind of RSI, it wouldn't have just gone away so easily on its own, nor stayed away when I started living normally again.
Anyway, I wrote all of that to get to my real point. I'm tending to agree with what armchairlinguist seemed to be hinting at: trigger points are suspected to be caused when part of a muscle is so tight it restricts the circulation to itself, depriving it of blood (and oxygen). TMS is suspected to manifest pain by restricting oxygen to the soft tissues. Therefore, TMS can cause or perpetuate trigger points? Or perhaps trigger points are *the* way TMS causes chronic muscle pain? Could the "tender points" that Sarno claims to find in most of his TMS patients be trigger points?
I'm not saying TMS isn't real, or that TMS has some physical component that needs treatment...frankly I'm not sure what I'm saying, just randomly hypothesising I guess. I'm rather eager to hear what some of the resident experts think about it, though. |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2006 : 07:40:43
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"I can see how Austin Gary, the founder of this TMS forum, wearied of those, who don't read Sarno's books thouroughly and with attention, learn the fundamentals of TMS theory and then enter into an intelegent discussion based on TMS fundamentals."
If that's intended at me, which I assume it partly is, then I can tell you that I have read all of Sarno, thoroughly and repeatedly (except for his now outdated 'Mind over Back Pain"). The latest TDM is excellent BTW, partly because of so many other author contributions, which fill out the picture somewhat from the one man's perspective. But he's developed his theories further too, and concentrates on them rather than spending too many pages running down everything else, which IMHO he did in Healing Back Pain.
One relevant passage is from the chapter by Douglas Hoffman, page 304 (You haven't got there yet in your read I take it):
"I wanted to learn more, so I went to New York to work with Dr. Sarno, picking his brain and discussing his theories. After a week together, his parting words to me were those of ENCOURAGEMENT TO RETRACE SOME OF HIS OBSERVATIONS AND MAKE MY OWN OBSERVATIONS"
I believe the good Dr. S would never claim to have it all figured out, and would not object to people making their own observations. That's all I'm trying to do in my own way, and admittedly as a patient. We all have our own perspectives and observations to make. As far as the basic tenets of TMS, the personality type, the goodism/perfectionism, the blocked emotions, the concious/unconcious conflict, and the physiological changes resulting from those conflicts, I believe he's right on. But there are certain parts of the TMS belief system, mainly to do with the mechanisms and why some physical treatments appear to help, that I have to alter some to fit into the reality of what I have observed and know to be true. The placebo argument doesn't always cut it, for me. But in the end none of that is critical.
Funny you mention Austin Gary, one of the forum's wisest folks ever. I've actually gone through many of his posts in the archives. Now there was someone who enjoyed a good debate! My take is that he also tired of those who treated Sarno's every word as some kind of a holy book. He ended out in various lengthy debates, and dared to tell all that he was also being helped by other non TMS methods. He wasn't afraid to challenge some of the assumptions and details, if he felt they needed challenging. And many, predictably, also wearied of him because he dared to disagree at times, and didn't go completely by the book.
For me, going through his posts was actually a defining moment, as I realized it's ok to absorb the fundamental TMS message while still having my own opinions about some of the details, that are based on my own experiences. That allowed me to stop getting hung up on the details and settle in to doing the real work.
"No one can be driven away from this forum ! They choose to come here and they choose to leave all of their own acccord. If they can't stand the ocasional TMS heat, they should stay out of the TMS kitchen. And, seek out a TMS psychotherapist, to get to the roots, of their TMS Forum, aversion.
How do they get by in the "real" world if they can't survive what a computer screen throws at them?"
It is a simple fact people may leave if parts of the theory dont ring true to them or if they feel ganged up on. Which is a shame, if Dr. Sarno's basic theory could help them. Otherwise, you raise a good point there. We all have free will, and it is also true many will leave simply because they're not ready to face themselves, or they're looking for a quick fix.
BTW I'm not planning to do this type of debating regularly. I'm personally better off spending my free time doing the work, plus it gets me up into my head again, a place I'm trying to avoid getting stuck in. As too many of us tend to do, no doubt . . . and thinking too much can be counterproductive. Once in a while I feel I have to step in if something someone says feels really wrong to me, without caring if I ruffle a few feathers. Good training for the real world, I think you'd agree. 
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Edited by - PeterW on 07/16/2006 08:27:16 |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2006 : 07:55:12
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Dave, all points understood and well taken, thanks for clarifying.
In my case it's clear that the trigger point thing helped me function better during bad spells, while just as clearly not being the total solution. I realized that long before discovering Sarno last year. It's not intended to change anything 'structural', just helps blood flow. Took the edge off, helped me get by in myriad ways. I'd rather do that than take narcotics, or be in so much pain that I cant function or think about anything else.
Reiterate: With the understanding that it is NOT a replacement for doing the real work required. It is essential to know this.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2006 : 09:32:33
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quote :
"But there are certain parts of the TMS belief system, mainly to do with the mechanisms and why some physical treatments appear to help, that I have to alter some to fit into the reality of what I have observed and know to be true. The placebo argument doesn't always cut it, for me. But in the end none of that is critical."
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Dr. Sarno says that the mechanisms the unconscious mind uses to implement its TMS strategy do NOT matter and may NEVER be discovered.
Some physical treatments appear to help because of the placebo effect.
PeterW, my post was not directed at you specically, but to those who do not do the TMS minimum, to read the books with attention until they "get" it and enter in to intelegent discussion or debate without name calling, and demonizing others because they have politcal or religious beliefs other than there own.
I reserve the right to fire back like Isreael does to defend and retaliate when I am unjustly attacked. And I will use humor, sarcasm, or whatever else to defend my delicate ego.
PeterW, your post was well thought out and intellegent. You are on the right track. When I first discoverd this forum, I didn't know how to use a computer. I got one and learned how to use it. I did not post for quite a while. I lurked and read the archives like you have, which is admirable. Many come here and do neither and are looking for a "quick fix". They view this forum as they would an "injection, medication, or a manipulation".
They feel a sense of "entitlement" here, as if this were a government program. They want all the rights and none of the responsibilites of board membership. They contribute nothing to furthering the Good Doctor's theory or helping others learn TMS theory fundamentals. There are two other TMS sites that have discussion boards and maybe they should take their TMS bizness there. They are Monte Hueftle's and Tarpit Yoga.
I don't have the url's and the same people who don't do the minimum research to understand TMS threory won't do the minimum to figure out how to find those alternative TMS discussion sites. |
Edited by - tennis tom on 07/16/2006 09:38:45 |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2006 : 10:32:16
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Thanks Tom for clarifying also. At least I'm off the hook. 
I agree we may never know the real mechanisms of TMS, not in our lifetimes anyway. All we have are best guesses based on the Sarno's work and our collective experience, and tools to use against it, based on the same.
BTW interesting you mention defending your delicate ego. No doubt that goes with the territory here. For my part, I may say I dont care if I ruffle a few feathers, but the honest truth is I do care, too much. Proof is I'm back within a couple hours checking for replies . .
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2006 : 10:43:33
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I believe trigger points do exist. This is why it is part of the TMS physical examination to palpatate these likely trigger points to see if they are tender. In the 15 years I was seeing a chiropractor, he was always able to find that spot in my shoulder where all the "junk" wound up. He was even open-minded enough to suggest that those spots represent an accumulation of stress. Extending this concept to TMS, those points may well represent the area the brain chooses to deprive of oxygen.
I don't know anything about trigger point therapy, but I do know my chiropractor would, at times, put so much pressure on those areas so as to cause significant pain, in an attempt to "break up" the "junk" that has collected there. Did this provide pain relief? Maybe, maybe not. It certainly provided a placebo cure. When my shoulders were sore I looked forward to seeing him, to the point where I felt it was a necessity to getting relief.
Whether or not it was a placebo or provided real pain relief is irrelevant. In either case the important thing to accept is that those points are tender because of TMS and the only way to get lasting relief from symptoms is to address the psychological causes of the pain. |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 13:56:20
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bigbadpete,
Your story is very similar to mine. Trigger point was the first thing that really helped, but not the ultimate solution. It's interesting to hear of someone else with the same history.
Dave,
Your thinking is the same as mine, essentially. TMS is the real solution, even when other treatments may interrupt the mechanism by which it works temporarily.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2006 : 19:28:55
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Armchairlinguist, I agree, I think you're right on with those thoughts. Maybe we can add to our collective knowledge base that if trigger point therapy seems to alleviate the sympoms for awhile, but the pain always comes back, then it is very likely TMS.
I took another spin through the archives circa 2004 and read some more debates (usually involving Austin Gary) regarding the mechanisms of TMS and all that theoretical stuff. Fascinating reading in a way, but ultimately it seemed everyone was just spinning in circles trying to figure it all out. Seems there are no definitive answers. I have a better appreciation now of why Dave urges people to 'just do the work'. |
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Please advise, Knee Pain w/ annoying snapping
