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Nor
152 Posts |
 Posted - 06/10/2006 : 20:33:21
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I was just reading the post on EMDR and Quackwatch. I've also read things about Stephen Barrett (conservative MD - founder of QW) which ruin his credibility to me. He was apparently at war (via various writings) w/Dr. Andrew Weil who I consider to be the most no-nonsense and helpful of all integrative medicine authors I've read about. Dr. Sarno and he have quoted eachother in their respective books.
Nor |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2006 : 00:11:50
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| Yes, I saw his listing of Andrew Weil on Quackwatch too. Like you, I have a lot of respect for Weil. |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 08:14:19
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| Hopefully, Weil only endorses evidence-based treatments. I haven't read much by him and nothing in a long time....A lot of the alternative therapies I read about provide no evidence base - so there's no reason to waste time with them. |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 09:11:14
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| If Andrew Weil only endorsed evidence-based treatments in the realm of alternative medicine, his books would be very slim indeed. There is very little on most herbal and alternative therapies; this doesn't mean they don't work, it means that studies have not been done for the vast majority, which means we don't know. Drug companies pay for most studies, and just like with TMS, no one has anything to gain financially from performing such studies, which can be quite expensive and time-consuming. |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 11:20:46
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| Weil has endorsed homeopathy despite all the rigorous studies that have determined that it is not more efficient than a placebo. |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 12:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
Weil has endorsed homeopathy despite all the rigorous studies that have determined that it is not more efficient than a placebo.
weil says in 'spontaeneous healing'
"i regard the placebo response as a pure example of healing elicited by the mind; far from being a nuisance, it is, potentially the greatest therapeutic ally doctors can find in their efforts to mitigate disease."
while this may be strong wording, i tend to agree. what's wrong with a placebo effect, even if it is temporary or doesn't 'really' heal anything?
also, to be frank, i don't know how much to trust 'rigorous' studies done by possibly vested interests. who knows, maybe we do not have the technology to understand how homeopathy works (if it does). we don't currently fully understand the detailed mechanism of tms or sarno's cure either.
ndb |
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ralphyde
USA
307 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 12:56:37
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Dr. Andrea Leonard-Segal, in her chapter in The Divided Mind, illustrates the difficulty in trying to apply evidence based standards to psychogenic symptoms. She says on p. 259:quote:
It is difficult because psychological treatments do not easily lend themselves to the ideal clinical trial methodology. How can we conduct studies to see if psychological approaches can cure this condition? Patients with TMS must be psychologically open to the diagnosis to improve. They must be ready to renounce the idea that their cure is to be found in structural or chemical means. Thus, it would be exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to conduct a study in which patients with the same condition are randomly assigned to different treatments, one of which is the TMS treatment. Because getting better depends on accepting the TMS dianosis, most patients assigned to TMS treatment would not improve because they would not be able to accept the diagnosis.
This is the difficulty. A person who does not accept the diagnosis of TMS is like a patient who does not swallow the prescribed medicine and thus does not achieve "success."
Ralph |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 13:08:39
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Ndb,
Good point, I agree but Weil says a lot of things. He is very likable guy but tends to endorse a lot of treatments that are often not respected by Sarno.
regarding Homeopathy this is the quote he has:
Q:
I read about a new study proving that homeopathy doesn't work. Yet I know you've often recommended it. Will this news change your mind?
A:
No, it won't. I've observed homeopathy's usefulness in a number of my patients with a variety of conditions, including autoimmune disorders, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, skin problems, and allergies. And over the years, I've heard success stories from many other people. I've also used it myself with good success.
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 14:00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
I agree but Weil says a lot of things. He is very likable guy but tends to endorse a lot of treatments that are often not respected by Sarno.
i agree with you that weil doesn't always back up his views with experiments and tests, but more often with accounts from people of what worked, and what didn't. i guess i like about him that he is willing to entertain the possibility that alternative treatments may work. and i like his optmistic approach to health and medicine.
sarno dismisses placebo effects, i think because he feels that at least in the case of tms, other treatments don't get to the source of the real problem (i totally agree; i never got as much relief from tms from any other therapy i tried, i now realize because they were just not addressing the cause--rage). i think as long as we keep this in mind, i like to keep an open mind about alternative therapies for disease in general.
best,
ndb |
Edited by - ndb on 06/12/2006 14:04:38 |
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Nor
152 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 20:09:03
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Uh, hello? Aren't we all here b/c we are subscribing to a treatment that has only anecdotal proof of effectiveness? Aren't we all relying on eachother's stories to keep us focused?
Dr. Weil also dismisses a lot of alternative therapies due to lack of evidence of effectiveness (ie, colonics, various herbal treatments, colloidial silver, coral calcium, etc.) I get his monthly newsletter and the advice is predictively consistent: eat right, exercise and take some basic supplements (vitamins, calcium, omega, antioxidant, etc.). That's one of the things I've always been drawn to in him. He's not so "out there" and he doesn't seem willing to buy into anything just b/c its "alternative".
Nor |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 20:44:57
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| Exactly my thoughts, Nor. Except that I was a little troubled by the Weil quote someone else mentioned where he supposedly said he has not changed his opinion on homeopathy despite studies showing it's worthless. I personally don't see how it would be possible for a substance that has been diluted to one in a million parts to have any effect whatsoever. It's sort of like astrology; some star zillions of light years away supposedly having some effect on humans. Otherwise, like you, I have always found Weil's writings to be mostly commonsense. And he certainly has impressive credentials (Harvard Med School). |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 21:56:27
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Several years ago I went to a Homeopath who was English, no less. Don't remember the details but went through a long interview, answered a lot of life-style questions, and was given a homeopathic "prescription". Went to Whole Foods and bought the little bottle of sugar-pills from the display of numerous little bottles of little sugar-pills. Dutifully took them, sub-lingualy, as prescribed, for months and months. ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGE--EXCEPT TO MY WALLET. --not even a placebo effect.
As far as Doc Weil, he has no credibility with me after reading about his pro-marijuana and halucenagenic drug views. He has written a tome on drug usage and studied under Timothy Leary at Harvard. You can do a Google search on "Dr. Weil and Marijuana", if you want to learn more.
I feel he is a shameless self-promoter, selling his books, newsletter, lectures and PBS programs. I'm pretty sure he doesn't reveal or push his pro-drugs views on general audiences because he knows it would lose him credibility and bucks. I find this disingenuous.
Dr. Sarno's cures are not based upon anecdotal knowledge. They are based upon HIS clinical research over more than 25 years. He is not a publicity seeker, as Weil is, and instead, practices in isolation, shunned by his peers at NYU hospital. He shuns publicity and is not out pushing his books, doing a national tour.
If "curing" oneself of TMS were easy, some huckster would have stolen the Good Doctor's idea and made a mint. But in "modern" culture, people need their pain to avoid emotional issues or for secondary economic gain.
Just my 2-cents,
tt
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Edited by - tennis tom on 06/13/2006 01:34:22 |
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alix
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2006 : 23:11:18
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tennis_tom,
I had the same experience with a homeopath. Bunk. A 30c dilution is like a molecule in lake Michigan.
Also homeopaths talk about the "energy of water" arguing that the energy is transferred to the water during the dilution.
But then the homeopathic remedies are in the form of sugar pills. Now I have to believe that the "energy of water" is transferred to sugar??? |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2006 : 08:08:29
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quote:
Originally posted by alix
But then the homeopathic remedies are in the form of sugar pills. Now I have to believe that the "energy of water" is transferred to sugar???
the sugar pill thing i think was done to make it more attractive/convenient to people. i read hahnemann's 'chronic diseases' about 7-8 years ago, and the preparations in that were of the form "take the mother tincture (a solution of the toxin and alcohol) and dilute with 'x' amount of water, shake it 'y' number of times, and drink 'z' parts of it". i am also not convinced of the efficacy of sugar pills, certainly hahnemann never used them. another thing...hahnemann mentions that only in rare cases are homepathic remedies to be taken in combination...and the stuff i see at whole foods is combinations of many ingredients.
in fact, i prepared my own remedy after matching up my symptoms according to the book, and i did experience some relief from my symptoms. i didn't really have the perseverance to continue the laborious regimen of making up the solution and regularly taking it, so i didn't continue very long. for the duration that i did, i did get some relief...it could have been placebo...clearly i am willing to believe in this stuff, but it did have SOME effect.
ndb |
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Nor
152 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2006 : 09:05:21
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| Okay, I'm perseverating a bit on Dr. Weil b/c I'd hate to have the entire forum reading this and discouting him. I think to say he's "pro-marijuana" is incorrect. I believe his more liberal attitude towards pot is not all he's about. As a matter of fact, I've been reading his newsletters and books for about 8 years and I check his website often. In all that time, I've never read anything promoting marijuana. After a google search as you recommened, tt, I did find some things about his early work but I truly believe that this information was held onto and used against him since it is sexy and controversial. Easy to hate a doctor who does drugs, right? His primary focus is on promoting health more naturally and using lifestyle, diet and our own abilites to heal. Holding it against him b/c he is successful is just not fair. We don't love Sarno b/c he's an underdog, we love him b/c his stuff works. Nor |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2006 : 09:14:25
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I just rememberred another thing...while i was reading chronic diseases, i thought a lot about my personality, and my emotions because the remedy depends on these things. maybe the benefit i experienced was a sort of tms cure. so i realize i don't know if it was the solution which was helpful. in classical homeopathy, they take a very detailed interview of the patient before prescribing...maybe this therapy helps.
i was just reading the heated discussions on wikipedia about homeopathy...i don't know what to believe, i think i will remain agnostic for now :)
ndb |
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n/a
560 Posts |
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ndb
209 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2006 : 09:43:08
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quote:
Originally posted by PeterMcKay
I learned about Dr. Sarno from Dr. Weil's book Spontaneous Healing.
But take a look at his website and what he endores for backpain: http://search.drweil.com/search?site=my_collection&client=my_collection&proxystylesheet=my_collection&output=xml_no_dtd&q=back+pain&x=0&y=0
i think you are saying he does not have the right idea? true, but for example the very first result, yoga, is not a bad thing, and he lists 'enhances self-image' (or something similar) as one of the benefits...thats a good thing for tms type personalities. my advisor claims to have overcome his back pain with yoga...i guess i'm saying i think tms is a revolutionary idea for cure, and its the only thing that worked for me...but 'whatever works' isn't bad either.
ndb |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2006 : 11:35:25
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On the subject of yoga, I think it's a great tradition and something I've done for many years. BUT, what originally was the trigger for my chronic physical pain were two injuries while doing yoga. So, yoga is not the be-all and end-all for fixing back problems. In my case, it created as many problems as it solved.
On doc weil, I stand by my assertion that he is a shameless self-promoter--the dr phil of PBS. He is a digester of new-age "cures" and presents a panopoly of fixes to his audience. Anyone who reads the daily papers or the TV evening news, would find the same ideas.
I don't think he ever practiced medicine, or not for very long. He is mainly a public speaker. He was originally a plant biologist and has a psychedelic mushroom named after him.
I'm sorry, I've been around too many pot-heads, to give what they say any credence. Where I live in SF, pot clubs are "mushrooming", dispensing quasi-legal pot. You can get a pound a day for your "personal" use, (and maybe a little to share with your buds). Hippy-MD's write rx's for pot ID cards. The neighborhoods around these places are seriously decaying due to the "patients" who hang out. A recent NIH study confirmed that pot has NO medicinal benefit, but that study has gotten little media play.
In "reality", the only people benefitting are the big drug cartels who are in the shadow of these schemes. |
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Nor
152 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2006 : 21:04:05
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I guess we have to disagree on this one, tt. I don't think Dr. Andrew Weil is responsible for the stoners wandering in bad neighborhoods in San Francisco. Nor do I think we should use what one's beliefs were in the '60s to paint our picture of them.
I usually back down when someone disagrees with me. (TMS pleaser trait.) This forum provides the safety and anonymity to speak my mind. This has actually been quite liberating!
Nor |
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Plantweed
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2006 : 05:46:06
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| While I can't defend the leeches who may hang around pot clubs, the statement that MJ has no medical benefit is simply false. Ask someone dealing with AIDS or who's going through chemo how it helps their appetite, or ask someone with MS how it helps with spasticity. |
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Another note on Quackwatch
