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Sean
34 Posts |
 Posted - 05/16/2006 : 13:24:40
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Does anyone know of someone who has been diagnosed as NOT having TMS by Dr. Sarno for back pain. I know that tumors and such can cause pain which is obviously not TMS.
Does anyone know of someone who has been diagnosed as not having TMS that:
1. has back/neck pain
2. fits the personality traits and
3. has ruled out other medical explanations such as tumors, cancer, etc. |
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allen_non
55 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2006 : 15:06:47
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Sean,
Thank you for asking this- I have had this exact same question for awhile now, and look forward to hearing the answers.
I have heard of several instances where a diagnosis for TMS (for some pain condition) was made, simply because the person got better after following the "program". However, an inverse conclusion can be made (in absense of a concrete physical TMS diagnosis) that if you do the TMS "program" and you DON'T get better, then you must have a real, physical problem.
I have learned that there are many ways to "mess up" the healing process (thinking too much, thinking too little, not digging deep enough, digging too deep- I'm sure it varies person to person). One of my fears is not following the program correctly, staying in pain, and thus concluding that since I did not "get well", it must not be TMS.
Sorry for the diatribe, I'm an engineer and too logical for my own good!
Looking forward to everyone's answers to this...
Allen |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 11:02:45
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TMS can be the top layer of another problem that has no 'structural' explanation. It is not an 'exclusive' disorder to me ...
For instance, I am sure I have TMS but have not been diagnosed with it. I did exactly the same process of TMS work as many do on this forum, with very small improvement despite 5 months of therapy.
However, I have been recently diagnosed with another Syndrome that creates symtoms VERY SIMILAR TO TMS in its symptomatic manifestation. Its called Postural Deficiency Syndrom, and its a proprioceptive disorder, not a structural one.
My back is structurally fine and my neck also... But I do experience high level of pain and soreness. Most of my pain has been fixed 2 weeks ago by the Lisbon postural therapy. The PDS syndrom is not known in north america but more widely known in Europe because the therapy originates from Portugal. The treatment consist simply of a pair of special Glasses that recalibrate your proprioceptive system.
After 2 mins wearing those glasses, my scoliosis disappeared, my tinnitus diseappared, my neck became fluid, my pelvis realigned to normal and my short leg just normalized ..... 70% of my pain diseappeared on the spot...
Now I have much more confidence that my residual pain is DUE to TMS because the rest if fixed... And you know what ?? the association between my pain and my emotions is now a lot easier to make as the other problem is under control... TMS work is actually begining to work for me !!!
I just think TMS installed as a top layer on my PDS. I will be happy to give more information on that Syndrom to whoever is interested.
P. |
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allen_non
55 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 11:19:53
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Hi FlyByNight,
Thanks for responding. That's very interesting what you write about the PDS. I'll have to take a look at that, even though in Georgia (US) it may not be available.
You mentioned that your back is structurally fine- Is that "structurally fine" in a Sarno sense, where there are abnormalities, but the abnormalities are benign; or "structurally fine" meaning "no abnormalities".
I had an MRI done basically to rule out the cancer & other nasties that Sarno advises to get checked for. My mri showed the disk nearly completely degenerated (gone) at L1-L2, and significantly degenerated at L5-S1. Funny thing is, I have nearly no symptoms from the L1-L2 spot. Plus my personality, etc, I'm reasonably sure that 90% of my pain, maybe even 100%, is TMS. It's that 10% "not sure of" part that I think keeps getting in the way. It's just tough finding a doc near me who will look at me & my films and say "yes, I see the abnormality, and no, it's not a problem". If I could get that kind of verification, I'd be home-free.
I can tolerate most pains as long as I know I'm not tearing something up. I had that ability even before I learned about TMS.
So, I keep working at it.
Best,
Allen |
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Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 11:23:19
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| Thanks for the interesting information FBN, but that does not answer my question. Beside people who are unwilling to accept the TMS theory or have not ruled out other medical explanations (tumors), has Dr. Sarno ever told anyone that they do not have TMS? What was the reasoning? |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 11:41:29
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I fully agree with sarno that common structural abnormalities cant be the cause of Chronic pain ...
To me chronic musculo squeletal pain can come from two main sources
1) emotions
2) Some inability of your brain to decode properly the position of your body in the 3D space (proprioceptive problem), leading to chronic tension, muscle imbalance and overuse of muscles, then leading to chronic pain and other tension related symtoms.
And to me these 2 sources can overlay on each other without a doubt !
I have a very small C6-C7 disk protrusion with no impact on the nerve roots to answer your question....
P.. |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 11:51:30
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Sean
As I wrote previously, there are other diagnosis that can be made to people that have exactly the same kind of symtoms and personnality traits that we refer to TMS.
Do not forget that TMS diagnosis mostly rely on patient history and other 'negative evidences' or 'benign evidences' of structural abnormalities.
I am pretty sure that most docs trained in TMS who don't know much about other 'non structural' disorders that can be the source of chronic tension such as PDS, will have a tendency to tell you you have TMS right away as soon as they find you fit the personnality traits and after realizing that your xrays are pretty normal.
Does the TMS diagnosis mean that Only TMS is the cause of your problem ???? Kinda hard to tell ... But I would certainly believe that I have no Structural explanation for My pain and that TMS is certainly a big part of the picture ..
Clinical medicine is not a science, it is an art. Its important to have fait in TMS to recover from it, but as each case is unique, personal experimentation is very important to asses wheter or not TMS is part of the process or the only cause of your pain.
but of course I will not answer for others. |
Edited by - FlyByNight on 05/17/2006 11:56:48 |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 12:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean
Does anyone know of someone who has been diagnosed as NOT having TMS by Dr. Sarno for back pain. I know that tumors and such can cause pain which is obviously not TMS.
Does anyone know of someone who has been diagnosed as not having TMS that:
1. has back/neck pain
2. fits the personality traits and
3. has ruled out other medical explanations such as tumors, cancer, etc.
I was dx'ed by Dr. Schechter, a TMS trained MD, as NOT having TMS in my right hip. He reccommended hip replacement surgery. The same week he dx'ed another member of this forum with hip issues as haveing TMS. I wish he had found me to have TMS but, alas.
Hope this helps,
tt |
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vegomatic
24 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 14:02:40
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A reporter for the Howard Stern news team (I believe it was George Flowers) has shoulder pain and said that Sarno told him he was NOT a candidate for his program. This was all said on the air a few months ago.
It wasn't back or neck pain as per your question but I figured it was close enough  |
Edited by - vegomatic on 05/17/2006 14:04:41 |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 15:12:25
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Gotta say, FlyByNight, this "postural deficiency syndrome" sounds quite sketchy. It sounds to me like another theory (whether it's correct or not) for the cause of what most of us believe are TMS symptoms, rather than a different problem altogether. This is not to say that it's invalid or that someone wouldn't benefit from this treatment, but why would you need two different diagnoses for what seems like the same problem?
Personally, I have a hard time figuring out how a pair of special glasses would correct such different problems as tinnitus, neck pain, and a short leg. Sounds like placebo effect... |
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Michele
249 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 15:25:22
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I started getting really bad acne a few months ago, and was really mad about it. I'm 47 for crying out loud! I KNEW it was TMS, but it was extremely persistent and embarrassing. I went to a dermatologist, who was a joke, but I did fill his prescription. It didn't help. Then it started clearing up and I realized I had stopped taking a coral calcium supplement, and the acne had started about the same time I started taking it.
Or at least that was my excuse. It could have been TMS all along, but it sure was a coincidence! |
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Sean
34 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 15:26:44
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I don't want to sound ungrateful for the responses or mean spirited, but it sounds like the answer to my question then is NO. NO, no one knows of anyone who has been turned away for BACK or NECK pain that has ruled out cancer, tumors, etc.
I'm just curious as to why anyone would need to see a TMS doctor for NECK or BACK pain to verify that it is TMS if they have been thoroughly examined through an MRI, Bone Scane, CT scan, etc.
I understand some may need this type of confirmation, which is fine, but to those who don't it appears unnecessary.
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 17:52:30
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| I would agree with you Sean, in theory. In practice, many people need guidance in terms of how to use the TMS concept to get better. For that reason, going to a TMS doctor can be beneficial. Similarly, just to hear someone in a medical field confirm this somewhat misunderstood (or just unknown) diagnosis can have great weight to break through the many barriers of recovery. |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 19:53:21
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Dr Ziggle.
This is exactly why I did not post anything about this approach on this board before ...
more than 30 000 patients have been treated over the last 20 years with this approach with 90% success.. This approach has been developed by Dr Orlando Alves Da silva in portugal and is now used widely to treat even dyslexic children across european countries(because there is a proprioceptive component in dyslexy also.. )
I am a medical engineer, so I did study carefully the scientific publications on the subject and I must say that it makes a lot of sense to me . The PDS diagnosis is becoming widely recognized in Europe and since 2 years in some part of Canada.
The therapy focus on the recalibration of the 3 main proprioceptive entry of the body : the eyes, the feet and the jaw to offer the patient with the best proprioceptive input...
Apart some visual clinical observations, there is a very solid evidence that make this diagnosis very strong and it is the fact that all people with PSD also exhibit directional pseudoscotomas in one or both eyes... These pseudoscotomes are messing up the proprioceptive input of the body and can induce this PDS with a lot of pain associated...
Prismatic glasses are prescribed on an horizon of 2 years to help recalibrate the proprioceptive input in conjunction with neuro postural reprogrammation ...
THe only thing I know for know is that its working very well for me and that it did work very well for 30 000 patients in the last 20 years ...
Placebo ? I dont know .. but my scoliosis is GONE !!!, my pelvis is STRAIGHT and my legs are EVEN !!!! well if it is a placebo, its the kind I would stock in my basement for future illness...
cheers
P.
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Edited by - FlyByNight on 05/17/2006 20:04:46 |
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Special One
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2006 : 22:12:14
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FlybyNight,
Where did you go to have this diagnosis made? |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2006 : 07:02:11
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"leading to chronic tension, muscle imbalance and overuse of muscles, then leading to chronic pain and other tension related symtoms"
I have a scoliosis and the pain I thought was caused by it disappeared when I read Sarno - I still have the scoliosis but no symptoms so there is not always a correlation with scoliosis, tilted pelvis and muscle tension and pain.
Anne |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2006 : 07:16:20
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I fully agree with you scotty
THis is exactly why I am talking of my situation as a 2 component situation (PDS and TMS)
I do not know what was the impact of my scoliosis and my twisted basin and my muscle imbalance on my pain but if you are giving me a mean to 'untwist' my body no matter if there is pain associated to it, I will take it ... Biomechanics is a science and on the long run, I am not sure that bearing a twisted body is good for you.
On the other hand, TMS is also very real and I am 100% continuing working on it. The main benefit I get from now is that it is easier for me to not obsess on my structural , lets say 'benign abnormalities', and entirely focus on my TMS.
As I said, I find it very easier to see the realtionship between my pain and my emotions now. I am on a better path to recover from my TMS now...
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Edited by - FlyByNight on 05/18/2006 07:21:27 |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2006 : 07:20:33
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Special,
I had the diagnosis made in Montreal, I was going to lisbon 2 weeks ago to see a friend so I took the opportunity to get to Dr. Alves da silva office (the researcher at the base of this approach) and got the treatment 2 weeks ago.
As I said, I still have some level of pain that I attribute to my deeply rooted TMS but my structural parameters are now 90% normal. This was a relief in itself.
My feeling is that PDS therapy is very complementary to TMS work and it is very 'non invasive' in its nature. To me it could probably help many TMS sufferer with postural dysfunctions that have a hard time not to focus on their 'benign structural abnormalities' such as scoliosis, short let, basin rotation, PDS related muscle hypertonia, PDS related TMJ crackling, neck movement limitation , etc.
P.
their recovery ot focus onprocess |
Edited by - FlyByNight on 05/18/2006 07:32:49 |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 06:15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by FlyByNight
Special,
I had the diagnosis made in Montreal, I was going to lisbon 2 weeks ago to see a friend so I took the opportunity to get to Dr. Alves da silva office (the researcher at the base of this approach) and got the treatment 2 weeks ago.
As I said, I still have some level of pain that I attribute to my deeply rooted TMS but my structural parameters are now 90% normal. This was a relief in itself.
My feeling is that PDS therapy is very complementary to TMS work and it is very 'non invasive' in its nature. To me it could probably help many TMS sufferer with postural dysfunctions that have a hard time not to focus on their 'benign structural abnormalities' such as scoliosis, short let, basin rotation, PDS related muscle hypertonia, PDS related TMJ crackling, neck movement limitation , etc.
P.
their recovery ot focus onprocess
I'm with the doc...This sounds, to be blunt, like your prototypical quackery...(not that he said that)...
Dollars to donuts you would have had a complete recovery with TMS treatment alone...
JUst my take. |
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FlyByNight
Canada
209 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 10:07:10
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Well thats a good comment Art, And I do not know the real answer to be honnest. Just thought it could be of some interest for some people on this forum.
That was my last comment about it.
P.
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2006 : 10:29:36
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Agreed that this sounds like a placebo effect, but placebo effect is one of the most effective treatments on the planet.
Personally, I am pragmatic, and feel "whatever works", as long as one does not get discouraged and quits trying to fix their "problem" or use it for a secondary gain. If I had not persisted, I would not have accidentaly stumbled upon the Good Doctor's first little book.
In one of Dr. Sarno's books, he recounts a doctor with back problems, who goes into the jungle to see a witch doctor. The witch doctor cuts the head off a chicken after an all night ritual ceremony and the patient is miraculously cured--whatever works.
Dr. Sarno says that most people will not accept his theory. Most people NEED their pain for deeply rooted psycholgical reasons.
Understanding TMS theory and being able to successfully utilize it when its symptoms crop up is a great tool in taking personal responsibilty for our own health care--which is as it should be. Since about 80% of what ails man is TMS it will reduce our doctor visits substantially and make our lives more productive and happier.
Peter, we all developed the thought patterns that create our TMS symptoms over a life time. It may take some time to re-condition the unconscious to feel diferently.
When I quit playing tennis six months ago, to try resting my arthritic hip, I fell into a deep depression with no light at the end of the tunnel. I feared never playing again. I was wrong and when I started playing again, after two weeks I was as sharp as ever. In fact I was better. What I had left were the positive skills my coach had taught me and the bad habits sloughed off. I'm enjoying the game more now than ever and hope to resume tournament play.
Acquiring TMS skills is like teaching someone to fish, they can heal themselves for a life time. Placebo cures work but are only good for that one problem. The unconscious will creare a new pain if it needs one. I believe that TMS theory takes some time to sink in. We need to brainwash-recondition ourselves and then let go and let our unconscious do it's work--sleep on it, as it were.
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What is NOT TMS?
