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vigtime
USA
6 Posts |
 Posted - 12/11/2005 : 09:54:55
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hello everyone....
need qualified opinions and/or real life experiences regarding spondylolisthesis(spondy, for short).....
athletic 15yr old experiences terrible pain after approx 30-45 min atletics.....he is diagnosed with grade 1/2 spondy...we are given a variety of conservative treatments from naproxen to physical therapy amd stretching to simple rest.....nothing works, except rest and no athletics.....he is miserable......
next step is surgery which has a high success rate but no guarantees except he will have up to one year away from sports....other than that, there are no real guarantees...
thanks for reading through this.....
question is has anyone else experienced this and did you try Dr Sarnos methods and,if you did, did it work ?
thank you |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2005 : 13:11:27
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First I want to ask you about the surgery. Make sure you ask the doctor about the success rate of the surgery. I was seeing an orthopedic surgeon and he also said my fusion had a high success rate. I would guess that is what they are discussing a fusion with this child also. But ask the doctor what exactly is the high success rate. When I had an appt. with my doctor to discuss surgery, he finally said the success rate was that my bone graft and the pins and rods would fuse my vertebrae together. It had nothing to do with pain relief or that my leg weakness would go away. So definetly ask the doctor that.
My back first started hurting at the age of 16, I was also into sports. I was diagnosed at 25 with spondyloysis, but they seem to group the spondylolysis with the spondylolisthsis. I am now 29, and I don't bel;ieve they had the fancy MRI's and CT Scans that they do now when I was 16. My doctor told me I probably did have the spondy at the age of 16. So I concluded that the reason I had back pain at 16 was because of the spondylolysis L-5. But after reading SArno's book I got better. I also wondered if it was the spondy, then how could I have played years of softball, baseball, basketball, up until I was 25. I mean I if I was injured. When I was 25 and got the diagnosis, my mind changed about my back. Before it was just muscle oriented, so it did not scare me. But after I was told it was an abnormality, it changed my whole thought process. I look back after reading Sarno, and I see when I got my first episode at 16, I was playing high school baseball, I did not want to play that year, I let my friend talk me into. I hated the fact that I had to stay after school and practice every day, then have to get public transportation and not get home until 8 when it was dark. I missed hanging out with friends and playing baskteball. I aslo was worrier, people pleaser, low-self esteem, etc.
Sarno also mentions in Healing Back Pain, a man in his fifties had Spondylolisthesis. He got better with Sarno and went back to playing basketball. My advice, talk with this kid, see what may be bothering him. I believe there maybe some thinf bothering him. Also I believe the doctors programmed him. When I got my diagnosis, it made me feel fearful, and also made me feel worthless, because I did not think I could do the things I wanted to do. It may make him feel like less of a man which can worsen symptoms, along with the fear. The fact that he is miserable will keep the symptoms coming. I would aslo have him read Sarno's books. You may also want to see a TMS doctr, I wish I would have had that opportunity. Hope this helps. |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2005 : 19:31:17
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athletic 15yr old experiences terrible pain after approx 30-45 min atletics.....he is diagnosed with grade 1/2 spondy...
Whoa! Stop the presses.
You are saying that this kid is basically normal until he steps out onto the sports field? And then 30 minutes later he is in pain? And the docs want to operate to "fix" this?
If I were you I'd put all this on hold for the moment and get this person to a TMS doc for a diagnosis.
Has anyone asked this youngster "What's going on in your life?"
Take care, -Stryder
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vigtime
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2005 : 21:43:48
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scoops, stryder....
thank you for responses...
let me further explain the situation .....my doctor does not, neccesarily, want to operate; he is simply offering that as one of our options.....he is, in no way, trying to manuever me into surgery....
when my son plays ice hockey, he is a little sore in the back; however after 30-45 minutes on the lacrosse field, he is barely able to walk from the pain.....i throw that out simply to reduce the variables.....
scoops, we are seeing a spine surgeon and he said the spine would be sound BUT that the pain still could possibly return......he did say that the only thing he could assure us was that his spine would be stable again .....
stryder, i only pray that by asking him"whats going on in your life?would fix him.... we are a close family and we have asked him that very question and, while evryone has their little secrets, he answers us pretty honestly and maintains an open dialogue.....
i respect your point,stryder, but from what i can see, i cant say that it is his problem, but i could be wrong......
some questions:
- who and where can i find a TMS doctor?
- do you have to see a TMS doctor or can you just read his books?
- how do you self diagnose TMS?
thanks again and please dont hesitate to respond
vigtime |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2005 : 22:58:24
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Here is a list of TMS docs.
http://www.tarpityoga.com/directory.html
some questions:
- who and where can i find a TMS doctor?
- do you have to see a TMS doctor or can you just read his books? No you do not have to see a TMS doctor. I have never seen one. I do believe it would have helped though to see one from the beginning.
- how do you self diagnose TMS? Well, if one has been seen by a doctor to rule out serious disease, and you see yourself in Sarno's books, than it is likely to conclude TMS.
Is your son a goodist, perfectionist, worrier, low-self esteem, etc?These things can start TMS. Especially if he is in sports and wants to be the best, win, feels like it's up to him for his team to win.
How does he do in school? Does he feel like his grades need to be the best? Does he want his teacher's to like him so he goes the extra mile.
Does he go to church? If so, does he feel like he needs to look perfect.
There are all kinds of thing that could be casuing his inner tension. Teens these days feel like they need to have it all together. Some believe their worth is based on performance, looks, success, etc. If they don't feel they meet these so called expectations then that can give the occurrence of TMS. It;s time for your son to look inside, maybe you could ask him some questions. But it helps to read Sarno's books to get some ideals to what is causing the pain.
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vigtime
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2005 : 23:51:36
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scoops
i will say "no" to most questions, but since there is some "yes" in them, i will pursue your idea of checking the books..i will not rule anything out....
thanks for your response and thanks very much for the link....
vigtime |
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Caroline
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2005 : 09:44:13
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quote:
Originally posted by vigtime
hello everyone....
need qualified opinions and/or real life experiences regarding spondylolisthesis(spondy, for short).....
athletic 15yr old experiences terrible pain after approx 30-45 min atletics.....he is diagnosed with grade 1/2 spondy...we are given a variety of conservative treatments from naproxen to physical therapy amd stretching to simple rest.....nothing works, except rest and no athletics.....he is miserable......
next step is surgery which has a high success rate but no guarantees except he will have up to one year away from sports....other than that, there are no real guarantees...
thanks for reading through this.....
question is has anyone else experienced this and did you try Dr Sarnos methods and,if you did, did it work ?
thank you
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Caroline
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2005 : 09:49:01
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Sorry, my response did not go through the first time.
I was diagnosed with spondylolisthesis a few years ago. At the time my back was really killing me. The pain eventually went away for not particular reason. Now I have neck pain and my doctor has diagnosed arthritis but I know better: it's TMS!
Caroline |
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2scoops
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2005 : 09:59:17
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scoops
i will say "no" to most questions, but since there is some "yes" in them, i will pursue your idea of checking the books..i will not rule anything out....
thanks for your response and thanks very much for the link....
vigtime
Sometimes we have no idea what is going on in a person. At your sons age, if people would have truly known what was going on in my head, they would have been shocked. I looked good on the outside, but I the inside I had so much anxiety, worry, fear, etc. I really did not know what was happening. |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2005 : 19:50:20
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| Personally, I can remember being around that age and being scared s**tless about playing lacrosse because I was a little kid and afraid of getting killed! Sports can be a lot of pressure for kids, so maybe it would be worth investigating whether there is anything specifically about that sport that is anxiety provoking for him. Hockey is just as strenuous, so why would lacrosse cause much worse pain? |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 18:48:15
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| Is he being pressured into playing Lacrosse in any way whereas his real passion may be hockey? |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 01:16:16
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Hi Vigtime,
Being unable to play for health reasons gets him out of playing without feeling that he personally is letting down the team, school or whatever so there's less guilt.
Maybe if you told him "sorry son, I know you hate letting the team/school/whatever down but I'm not letting you risk your future health. You need to keep off sports for a year and give your back a rest" - then he is let off feeling any guilt as it's your decision.
Then see what happens over time.
Anne
Scottydog |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 17:41:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Scottydog
"...You need to keep off sports for a year and give your back a rest" -
No offense Anne, but...
Rest? Noooooooo, I don't think so. That plays right into TMS' hand. Sarno says return to normal activities, not rest.
But it is obvious from the discussion that this lad does have a problem with lacrosse, or the circumstances in which he is participating. Its probably the latter. As someone else replied, he could just be scared to death of the sport, try another sport?
Someone needs to figure out what the underlying issue here is, or just move on to another sport.
No rest. No fear. Never give up. Never surrender.
Got Sarno?
Take care, -Stryder |
Edited by - Stryder on 12/15/2005 17:45:43 |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 01:12:32
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Yes, I agree with what you are saying but
"Someone needs to figure out what the underlying issue here is, or just move on to another sport."
Who - the next thing is psychotherapy etc - what's his pals, team mates etc going to think? this guys a loser and a nutter?
(this is a british view - ie you don't go to psychotherapy unless you're mentally unstable being the general view)
I meant that he should think he wants to play / compete but his dumb over protective Dad is stopping him. At 15 he has a million pressures, school exams, girls , sexual feelings, pesky parents hassling him cos they think there is something wrong. This would let him escape from one of them for a month or two.
anne
Scottydog |
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pault
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2005 : 19:19:48
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| vigtime ,lots of athletes suffer from that kind of pain,pro's included .The unconscious mind is the culprit and it is not logical,especially with a teenager.The unconscious mind resents the pressure to perform up to whatever standards he and friends have set up,so rage brings on the pain and no more pressure to perform,the ultimate excuse!His conscious mind wants to play so he gets angry.Just like growing pains it will pass with time.I think the diagnosis of spondy is another way of saying:we don't know and don't want to admit it!I recommend(you both) read the book several times and he will get results with understanding tms and how it works,the knowlege is the cure! Paul. |
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vigtime
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 16:16:30
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pault, peter, scoops, caroline, scotty, stryder....etc....
happy new year !!
thank you for your comments, insights and opinions, i really appreciate all of them (except scotty's "dumb dad" remark).......
you are all very kind to take an interest in this situation.....my son started dr sarnos book and does understand the basic concepts....that combined with his coaches being very supportive and encouraging have helped.....
BTW, pault, your post,for me, seemed to hit the nail on the head........
i feel an obligation to tell all of you that all back pain has ceased and that he played 5 hockey games in the past week, pain-free....the big test is a lacrosse scrimmage tomorow night.....he is, as you can imagine very anxious....
i will put up a post to let you know the results...
once again , thank you
vig |
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FarmerEd
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2006 : 18:11:40
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Hello Vigtime,
It's been a while since I posted here but I was also diagnosed with your sons condition. I was told that I probably developed this from an early childhood injury or I was born that way. On x-ray my vertebrae is slid %50 forward. It looks scary and even Sarno in his early books wasn't sure if this was a legitimate physical condition that did indeed cause pain or just another explanation for TMS pain like a slipped disk. By his last book he had treated lots of folks with this condition and was thoroughly convinced that spondylolisthesis does not cause pain. In the US 5 to 10% of Adults have this condition and most have no pain at all. In fact most go through life never knowing they have it. It is usually found by accident if xrays for another reason are taken or pointed to as the culprit if back pain develops.
I played sports all my youth from football and baseball to karate, judo and ping-pong. I probably had this condition the whole time and if rigorous physical activity will cause the spine to become "unstable" due to this condition as I was told then I should have been paralyzed long ago. I suffered for 3 years from debilitating TMS and this was the problem I was told. After reading Sarno's books and believing and applying his methods I'm back to doing all the work I used to do here on the farm. The last couple of weeks I've been up and down ladders all day and climbing in apple trees doing pruning and shovling tons of wood chips for mulching. I agree 100% with Sarno on this one.
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vigtime
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 17:18:30
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to all of you..
thanks again....as i promoised, i would pos after my sons activities.....since i las posted , he has played 8 ice hockey games and 2 lacrosse games and FEELS NO PAIN.......and thats after reading only 2 chapters od sarnos book!!.....remember that he was scheduled for surgery only a few weeks ago....glad i kept researching and glad i had all of your input and ideas.
i know that the two may or may may not be related, but we've learned a valuable lesson and wont forget to pursue dr sarnos theories and puit them into practice...........
thanks again......will keep watch on the message board...
vigtime |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 18:08:33
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On Page 111 of Healing Back Pain Dr. Sarno says about spondylolisthesis:
"It would be imprecise to say that spondylolisthesis never causes back pain: but thus far, I have not seen a patient who it did."
Please read pages 110-111 of Healing Back Pain
Dr. Sarno has successfully treated people with the diagnosis of spondylolisthesis using his TMS teachings as outlined in "Healing Back Pain" and "MindBody Prescription." |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2006 : 19:20:58
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Hi vigtime,
Good to hear back from you that the situation is on the fast track to recovery.
A couple of my fav quotes...
Treating TMS means taking responsibility for your own healing.
-- Dave
A few weeks ago I read Dr. Sarnos book and it was like being woken from a nightmare.
-- ladyblue
Hey, look, on 01/17/2006 vigtime posted a...
SuccessStory:
...major recovery in progress in only 4 weeks.
Take care, -Stryder |
Edited by - Stryder on 01/17/2006 19:22:25 |
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AikidoOrJudo
1 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2012 : 12:53:21
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I have been in Kung Fu for 10 years and never thought of this vicious circle you are talking about. Nevertheless I have to agree with a lot of the things you say.
Visit http://www.mma-aikido.com
Visit my website http://www.mma-aikido.com |
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unstable spondylolisthesis
