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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
 Posted - 10/10/2005 : 22:05:24
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I covered some of this in a different topic, but I'm wondering if others have experienced some of the neuro symptoms I've had recently. The reason I say "MS-like symptoms" is because that's exactly what was suspected four years ago, the last time I felt this way. But all the tests, incl brain MRI showed nothing and then symptoms eventually went away completely. In the past week they seem to have returned. It started with an aching pain in my hand one morning that soon went away. The next morning, same thing, but this time lingered. Then it moved up to my armpit. Not just the pain, but a feeling of weakness. For the past week I have seemed to alternate arms, parts of arms, and even legs. The symptoms can change and move literally by the hour. Yesterday morning I awoke and my little finger was numb, but after I shook it out the blood returned and it was fine. This morning that finger and the whole hand felt strange; slightly numb and weak. Hard to tell whether the weakness is perceived or actual.
It goes without saying, that although I have already been through this four years ago without the docs finding anything, I was still very stressed and depressed about it. Has anyone else had similar strange neuro symptoms that moved around from day to day? Thanks very much.--Rick |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2005 : 07:53:53
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Rick,
What is going on in your life right now? All of this sounds like TMS. If the doctors have found nothing - then there is nothing wrong with you physically. Are you reading Sarno's books and journalling? The key lies in your thoughts. Why don't you tell us a little about your life.
Suz |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2005 : 20:24:44
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Suz,
Thanks for your comments. You said "if the doctors found nothing there is nothing wrong with you physically". Well, I keep telling myself that, but it doesn't help. During my ruminations I tell myself, "well maybe the brain MRI four years ago didn't show anything because it was too early in the progression of the disease (MS); I'll bet if repeated it now it would show. MS is notoriously hard to diagnose anyway...many of my symptoms sure seem to match up..."
When I try to spin the details more positively I come up with this: Well, I don't fit the MS demographic. I'm not a young female, nor did I grow up in a northern latitude. I'm a 51 yo man who grew up in the southwest, but now lives in CO. I have always been in excellent physical condition and have even run three marathons since my last MS scare four years ago.
Okay, that's the physical part. Psychologically, I have always tended toward a depression/anxiety that is mild to moderate most of the time, but sometimes dips into severe. I have always been somewhat of a hypochondriac, but this has gotten much worse in recent years and it seems to be especially bad when I am depressed. In fact, my recents MS symptoms as well as those four years ago occurred during particularly bad times emotionally. My temptation (and hope) is that they are related. I would much rather be a hypochondriac than actually HAVE one of these bad diseases.
I can go on and on, but I'll leave it here for now. If any of this seems pertinent to a TMS diagnosis or if anyone has any comments at all, I'd be happy to hear them. Thanks very much! |
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JoeW
United Kingdom
61 Posts |
Posted - 10/11/2005 : 21:57:00
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I've posted on this previously:
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=920
I had MS-like symptoms, and an MRI did show spinal lesions consistent with MS. This, and the frequency of my "attacks" of symptoms (at least every 6 months), lead my neurologist to diagnose me with MS, of a mild form.
Nevertheless, since reading Sarno, I have had no further attacks, and am now convinced that my MS was entirely a mindbody related phenomenon. Sarno suggests that this, and other autoimmune disorders are in fact TMS-equivalent. So whether you "have" the disease, or not, it does not change the fact that its cause might be related to your emotions and mind, and that it might be cured by appropriate application.
I also know that the more I read about the disease, and its symptoms, the more worried I became, and the more of those symptoms I got.
So my advice is not to worrying about whether you have MS - but to try to apply Sarno's techniques. If those are too vague, then read more around the subject of mindbody, and find approaches that work for you. I got a lot from Norman Cousins, Herbert Benson and other mindbody writers that I have discovered since reading Sarno. My latest find (via here) is Jon Kabat-Zinn, and his meditation/mindfullness techniques.
Good luck |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 19:45:15
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Hi Joe,
I'm interested in your case. How long ago were you diagnosed with MS? What does the neurolgist say about your no longer having symptoms? Aside from lesions, were your other neuro test positive?
When I did all these tests four yrs ago everything was negative except for one small test where the doc taps on your jaw. He said mine was "brisk", which is common in people with MS, but it could also be a normal variation. In the end, he told me he seriously doubted I had MS, but of course, couldn't guarantee that 100%.
Today I had some symptoms that really scared me. Usually, it is my upper limbs that have symptoms. But today the backs of both legs felt sort of weak. Meanwhile, my upper limbs were perfectly fine.
I notice something else. It seems there is somewhat of a pattern here. Symptoms seem to strengthen around 2 PM, when I arrive at work, and then through the evening. By the time I get off work at 9 PM it seems better. This has been the pattern for several days in a row (no, I don't hate work).
Anyway Joe, I would really like to hear more details about your experience. Thanks very much, Rick |
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HilaryN
United Kingdom
879 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 06:11:23
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quote:
I notice something else. It seems there is somewhat of a pattern here. Symptoms seem to strengthen around 2 PM, when I arrive at work, and then through the evening. By the time I get off work at 9 PM it seems better. This has been the pattern for several days in a row (no, I don't hate work).
See pp. 63-65 of “The Mindbody Prescription” (part 2. Chapter 3,”Pavlovian Conditioning—Programming”) (I hope you don’t mind me quoting the book at you, but this bit does seem appropriate):
“One of the most important clinical features of TMS is the tendency for sufferers to develop a specific pattern of pain, including what time of day or night they will have pain, what activities or postures will bring it on, what things they can and cannot do.
These are programmed reactions. They develop automatically and unconsciously by association..."
...
"Some common patterns:
1. You wake up feeling pretty good, but the pain gets worse as the day goes on; by evening you can barely get around.
2. Mornings are the worst; you struggle to get out of bed. A hot shower makes you feel a little better and by the time you leave for work you're able to get around; as the day goes on you feel better and better.
3. You feel pretty good during the day but the nights are terrible; ...
4. You sleep well at night but the pain during the day is terrible.
..."
Hilary |
Edited by - HilaryN on 10/15/2005 06:12:31 |
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Becca
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 16:28:39
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Hi
I had a very similar experience with MS syptoms about a year ago. One evening my left leg suddenly went numb. Over the next few days my right leg and arm started to tingle. I went to a neurologist, had an MRI which came back normal. However, she said that it did not guarantee a negative diagnosis. I was sure I had MS despite the MRI. I went to another MD and had an evoked potentials study done. That came back negative as well. A few weeks later I developed severe nedk and shoulder pain that has persisted for 10 months (cervical MRI shows mild bulge). Ironically, since the neck pain has started, I have not had anymore MS syptoms.
Like many others with spinal type pain I have been unsuccessfully treated by the conventional methods. I have a significant history of anxiety. My syptoms developed while in grad school and am beginnig to think that there maty be a connection between the two. However, it is hard to reconcile all of this with my medical education.
It sounds like your syptoms, like mine have a strong emotional component. It is amazing how the body can play trcks with us. -R |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 23:57:07
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Becca,
Very interesting, your experience with MS symptoms. What is the "evoked potentials" test? Is that the same as a nerve conduction study, where they poke you with needles in different places and measure how quickly the signal moves from your spinal cord to brain?
About your negative MRI. You say you didn't believe it because your neurologist said she couldn't give you a guarantee. When I got my negative MRI four years ago I was told the same thing, but I assumed the doc's cautious wording was simply fear of liability. I was thrilled, especially since my symptoms were fading by then anyway and I was happy to chalk it up to some mysterious psychological phenomenon. I assumed that all along until two weeks ago when the symptoms appeared again. Now, I'm freaked out all over again and will probably do another MRI.
Like you, I am suspicious of an anxiety connection to symptoms. I have always been plagued by anxiety, especially about health matters. At the very least, anxiety has to aggravate any symptoms, if not create them from scratch. I saw firsthand how powerful my mind is in creating symptoms. Several years ago, after listening to my older brother describe his tinnitus (ringing in ears) I became absolutely convinced I had it too! I was extremely distraught and over the next year went the rounds of hearing tests and even a brain MRI to rule out a tumor. Eventually, it went away completely, which means I never really had it. But at the time I would have sworn to you that it was real. The power of suggestion.
By the way, I wouldn't think your "mild cervical bulge" would have anything to do with the tingling in your leg since that area is directed by your lumbar spine. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 00:04:43
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| Hillary--Thanks for reminding me of those passages from the Mindbody Rx. While there does seem to be a pattern to when symptoms arise or worsen, this doesn't always hold true. This morning, for example, the leg weakness that I felt last night was still there. Of course, there might have been something else going on because I felt very chilled, shaky, and tired too. Maybe a bug of some sort. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 16:14:12
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wrld,
I've no experience with MS or its symptoms, but for what it's worth you absolutely sound like the prototypical TMS'er to me
You and and I share some things..around the same age, both runners, both anxious hypochondriacs...I fight that desperately by the way..In fact, I probably go too far in the other direction as I haven't even been to a doctor in a long while..
From the outside looking in, I'd say it's a pretty sure bet you've got TMS, not MS. Also, that two o'clock in the afternnon stuff sounds utterly typical, though I realize it happens at other times as well...
The mind/body connection is dazzlingly complex...I would harldy have believed it, but after having suffered terribly for years with food sensitivities and hypoglycemia to the point of absolute desolation and despair, with crushingly bad headaches and terrible fatigue, as well as a hard to describe but profoundly awful feeling of toxicity that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, I'm on my way to feeling ten thousand percent better...
Believe me, and others, TMS can account for some amazingly complex and strange symptoms....just stay open to it and try not to worry so much!!
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Edited by - art on 10/16/2005 18:41:05 |
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JoeW
United Kingdom
61 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 19:03:44
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quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
I'm interested in your case. How long ago were you diagnosed with MS? What does the neurolgist say about your no longer having symptoms? Aside from lesions, were your other neuro test positive?
It was about 5 or 6 years ago. I emigrated to New Zealand (from UK) 2.5 years ago, and haven't had symptoms, or seen a neuro since then. My UK neuro wanted to do more tests (a spinal tap was next), but was sympathetic with my need not to have too definite a diagnosis, because of possible problems with immigration. He based his diagnosis on the MRI, and on my reported symptoms, and their frequency, which was at least one episode/attack every 6 months. Other tests (tapping various muscles, observation of eye-movements etc) were negative.
One point to make is that my symptoms, which normally involved numbness in a particular area, would exist for a prolonged period, usually a month or so, and would then disappear. They would not vary particularly within that period. I believe this is the characteristic of MS which the doctor recognised - a definite "attack" period (although I was very lucky that my attacks, with one exception, were very mild). I did not experience much variation at different times of day.
I made the link with MS and TMS after reading Sarno, after a prolonged arm "injury" which was refusing to get better. The arm started to be less painful, and at the same time, I started to feel an MS-like numbing in a leg. By making the link, and suspecting this was TMS running, the numbing died away. I have become more and more convinced that my original MS symptoms were linked to emotional issues (i.e. TMS).
So, again - try not to work yourself into a state of anxiety, as that is sure to make things worse. Look at what's happening in your life. You say you don't hate your job - do you love it? Would you do it if you didn't need the money? I think many of us have an inner-child raging because we have to work for a living, instead of playing! Of course we can't necessarily change the situation, but at least recognise it for what it is.
Cheers
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 00:05:59
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Thanks Art and Joe for your comments. So, have your symptoms gone away completely Joe, and if so, for how long?
I had my annual physical today and one thing my doc pointed out about MS that of course makes sense, but I hadn't thought of, is that each time it heals it leaves permanent deficits in whatever limb it affected. Well, that in itself seems like a good way to determine whether one actually has MS. My earlier bout of symptoms was four years ago. When the symptoms vanished there was no evidence of any lingering weakness or deficit in any of the affected areas.
My doc said that he very much doubted I had MS, but that if I wanted to check back with the neuro guy who saw me four years ago, he would refer me. Interestingly, I have felt considerably better today (not perfect) than before, so maybe there is some TMS or whatever going on. |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 07:26:30
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Rick,
I still have not heard from you what is going on in your life. I have only heard symptoms - physical and then emotional like depression. This entire thread has missed out the key component - what is going on? What are you not facing in your life? What are the stressors? What do you think of your job? What is your family life?
I, of course, appreciate if it is too personal to post here but why don't you start writing about it each day. It does sound to me that you have TMS. I spent years focusing on my body and also had depression. Since working with Sarno's technique, all of that is changing. I barely think about my body - can you imagine??!! What a difference after 12 years of it!
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 20:03:33
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Suz,
Thank you for continuing to press me on what is going on in my life...I think you are on to something and it is something I need to explore. I thought I had looked at this (in journaling over the years), but maybe I haven't been as honest with myself as I need to be. I do know there is probably a volcano under there, under the veneer. How else to explain the steady stream of physical symptoms I have had over the years? |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2005 : 21:54:53
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| Well, I did a brain MRI today and just like four years ago, it was completely normal. I still have to do an EMG next week, but I'm sure that too will be normal as it was four years ago. Of course, the doc will not give a 100% guarantee that I don't have MS, but he said it is 90-something percent chance that I don't. So, how to explain these weird and persisting (1 mo so far) symptoms (mentioned in my first entry)? Could this possibly be TMS? I don't know what to make of it except that my last episode almost four years ago lasted about 6-8 months. Strange. |
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pault
USA
169 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2005 : 05:06:03
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| wrldtrv , The beauty of M.S.worry is there is always that opening at the end of the negative diagnosis:We cannot guarantee it 100%! This is perfect for the tms sufferer,as it always leaves the opening that it still might be there.This makes it very hard to think psychologically,because that statment from a Doctor will always leave doubt.Why is your unconscious brain making you feel insecure,so you worry? The tms distraction.You can erase this with reading and gain the confidence to not worry.Keep reading! Paul. |
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MS-like symptoms?
