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Calvin
USA
46 Posts |
 Posted - 09/29/2005 : 16:37:02
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Can anyone offer insight or advice about how depression can be a TMS equivalent?
I have DEFINITELY noticed that when any physical pain goes away, there is now emotional pain. I know its a trick - the best time to be depressed is while in pain - but while I'm in pain, I'm working on my issues and journaling and doing normal things - not a pinch of feeling anxious or sad. I'm hyped up on conquering the physical pain.
Now, I'm pain free and feeling pretty blue. I have read MBP and saw that Sarno touches on it for a little, but I'd like a little more information from the regulars here. I've searched the posts here and have come up with some real good information which has helped me feel better, but I guess I need a fresh shot in the arm.
This has been an ongoing pattern for the last year. As soon as there is a physical problem, all emotional issues go away. When the physical goes away, BAM - anxiety and depression. |
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ladyblue
United Kingdom
50 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2005 : 17:19:40
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Hi Calvin,
I've just read your posting and wanted to reply, but please bare in mind that I'm no expert.
I related to your words, it's such a cycle isn't it but, if I'm honest, the emotional pain is always present, even if it's temporarily tucked away in a drawer in my mind whilst I deal with other matters, like you said..the pain.
I don't think the emotional pain you feel is a trick and there's probably not a good time to be depressed, but the pain certainly serves to divert the attention.
Conquering the pain is an incredible achievement but it appears, on occasion, to leave a person with the original source, be it sadness,anxiety, fear etc.
I'm still handling the pain but have decided, to the best of my ability, to ignore the destraction it's offering and face the emotional pain instead, my intention being to once and for all,lay it to rest.
I've read an incredible little book over the last few days called "Releasing Fear" and it's had an amazing impact on me.It's one of the most direct approaches I've ever come across and I can confirm that, if followed, the guided stages take you on a journey to the original spark that ended up, in my case anyway, causing an inferno of fear affecting literally all areas of my life.
There's another book written by the same woman (Liz Adamson) called "Releasing Hurt and Sadness" that I'm going to buy next. As soon as the word "childhood" is mentioned I feel an overwhelming sadness and yet I'm not sure why and I know that's going to be a several boxes of tissues time for me, but once dealt with those emotional burdens will be gone for good.
The books are on www.hypnosisaudio.com...they may help Calvin?
Wishing you luck and courage...Jane |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 12:20:57
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A worsening of emotional symptoms, such as anxiety or depression, is not uncommon once you start doing the TMS work. When you think about the underlying reason for the pain, which is to keep you from dealing with uncomfortable emotions, it starts to make sense that beginning to defeat TMS can "stir up the pot" emotionally.
It is important to work on such issues so that you can continue on the right track. You may benefit from psychotherapy or potentially a short course of antidepressant medications to help you through this.
Good luck! |
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Stryder
686 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 13:38:44
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Yes, depression as a TMS equiv is not uncommon. Any distraction that your mind can create to take your mind off of your real problems will work as a TMS equiv.
I've been going through a much harder time with my emotional state since my low back, leg pain, migraines, IBS, foot pain, yada yada yada are gone.
Take care, -Stryder |
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Calvin
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 16:01:25
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Ladyblue - I never really gave it much thought that the anxiety and depression are underlying and sitting dormant, waiting for their time to appear. As I mentioned, I have noticed that when there is a crisis, I'm suddenly focused and snap to attention - the present distraction helps put my emotional state on the back burner. I couldn't help but notice that everything in my life right now is going very well (marriage, kids, health, job). There is some financial hardships, but nothing that can't be handled by some overtime. I will check out those books you recommended. I'm reading one right now called "Compassion and Self-Hate" (I forget the author right now), which has really showed me why my thought processes jump off track and turn to the negative when things are going well.
Dr. Ziggles - I had a sneaky feeling about that. Thanks for emphasizing that my mind is probably getting wound up now and I know it'll probably take a few days or maybe weeks to finally settle back down again. As for anti-depressant medication - no thanks. I took them years ago with disastrous results.
Stryder - I agree with you 100%. It feels like dealing with the emotional issues is much harder than the physical ones. The mind is a very powerful organ, substituting symptoms like this. However, what I think I'll do with this setback is definitely LEARN from it - the more I learn, the better I can deal with it in the event it happens again. Instead of being afraid of the depression and anxiety, I'll put it to good use. |
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leegold
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2005 : 19:55:41
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Calvin-
I am experiencing the exact same thing as you. As my phys symptoms abate, I continue doing affirmations that stir up all kinds of emotional issues. I have even thought at times of great depression and HIGH ANXIETY that I'd rather have the physical pain, and I can see how these emotions are SO hard to feel that I understand wht the brain would choose to go physical.
However, it MUST be a better route to go after the feelings- I think for some of us the well of pain is SO deep and SO full that it is almost unbearable to go through the emotions. Yet these emotions are the ROOT cause, and MUST be dealt with, so I forge ahead.
I think for me, many of the horrible feelings are from my pre-verbal stage of life, as there seems to be pure, unadulterated emotional pain and no issue attached to them. There is much mourning to be caught up with in life. I will also look into the book on fear recommended by ladyblue.
Hang in there, as I will, and we'll kick this thing in the *ss!
Lee
"A tranquil heart is life to the body, but passion is rottenness to the bones" |
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Calvin
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 00:16:28
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quote:
I am experiencing the exact same thing as you. As my phys symptoms abate, I continue doing affirmations that stir up all kinds of emotional issues. I have even thought at times of great depression and HIGH ANXIETY that I'd rather have the physical pain, and I can see how these emotions are SO hard to feel that I understand wht the brain would choose to go physical.
Funny you should mention this: I've been tackling the emotional issues head on today, reading Sarno again and again, also re-reading Claire Weekes books (I have her entire library), reaffirming over and over - guess what? I'm feeling the emotional pain go away and the physical return.
This is some very interesting insight. This is only confirming that my mind is playing its old games again, bluffing, tricking me into thinking there's more wrong than there really is. However interesting the insight, though, I will not dwell or obsess about it. Obsessing will only give it more life - I think that keeping somewhat busy, pleasant occupation this weekend will be a nice experiment. |
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jallen2006
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 15:07:34
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Hi…again, my name is Jeannie and new to the board (I just posted in another section). I must tell my story here on physical verses emotions (and depression) and hope it doesn’t scare anyone. 
I learned about Dr. Sarno from a friend over a year ago. I picked up his books and read them, starting out highlighting what I could relate to, but soon pitching out the highlighter because it was “me” on every page! I related to suppressed emotions of rage, anger, grief, sorrow, fear, all of it. So when I read where he said a few cases may need mind-body therapy I knew I was one of the few. I saw Dr. Schechter in Beverly Hills who referred me to a mind-body therapist. I started therapy a year ago.
I had barely started the therapy when my gut started burning. It wouldn’t go away so I found myself concentrating more on that then the therapy, yet the more therapy I went to the stronger and more frequent the burning became. Two months later I started going to doctors sure that something serious was wrong. This started me on what I call my TMS odyssey. Just to show you how powerful the mind is and how it can divert your attention from dealing with suppressed emotions, the following happened to me once I started seeing doctors to find out what was causing the continuous burning in my stomach:
A stomach ultra sound showed nothing so they did a cat scan. Unbeknownst to me I was allergic to the dye in the cat scan, so my face and lips swelled up three times their size and I had welts on my chest. The only thing the cat scan found was a cyst on my liver which I was told was from fat in my diet! I also began having pressure in my chest and felt like I was ovulating even though I am 10 years post menopause so I asked for a pelvic ultra sound and chest x-ray. These found an ovarian cyst and a nodule on my lung. So of course now all of my attention was being paid to medical issues, which is exactly what happens when trying to deal with the suppressed emotions. Still nothing was found to cause the burning in my stomach, although my mind-body therapist told me from the beginning that it was me, having trouble digesting the emotions I was working. I felt at the time it was pure bunk and that the doctors hadn’t looked hard enough. I became depressed over not feeling well and no one being able to find out the cause.
Once I found out the ovarian cyst was very small and not a threat and the nodule on my lung was so small a biopsy couldn’t even be done, I went back full force to doing my mind-body therapy. Within a few weeks, right after Christmas I was standing on my bed decorating the top of the four posters when I slipped and fell landing into the corner of my nightstand. I cracked a rib which then punctured my lung. Out two weeks of work and back thinking about medical problems. After I healed from that, I took another fall in a crack on a sidewalk, luckily not injuring anything, had a bout with allergies due to pollen and a few other things non life threatening including swollen calves. I really became angry then because prior to therapy I had been fit as a fiddle, never went to docs, hadn’t had even so much as a common cold for twelve years. But my therapist told me that anger is only depression turned outward so I told him that although continuing working with him might “kill” me, too many things had happened to me so I was staying in it for the long haul!
It has absolutely amazed me how powerful our mind is. If those emotions are just too painful to bring out of the closet, out of the past and relive, just look what our mind can do to make us escape facing them. I did it though and it was only a few weeks ago when I realized that I felt calm and at peace. I stopped to think about all those issues I have brought up in therapy so far and it was then that I realized how the therapy had subtlety and gently helped me, healed me, made me feel whole. As for the original burning in my gut? Well 7 months after it started I finally switched my entire group of doctors and within two weeks the new one found what the others hadn’t found: A large hiatus hernia of which I can control through the famous purple pill, exercise and diet. My therapist told me that yes, dealing with emotions can make medical issues manifest, but that working one’s way through the emotions can also heal the very same medical issues. And where is my hernia? In the stomach. Right where he told me almost a year ago that I was having trouble “digesting” emotions. I have found this all to be true and just thought I would share it.
Cya, Jeannie |
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 19:48:05
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I'm happy to hear of your progress, but I just have to mention that there's no real proof that hiatal hernias have anything to do with nonulcer dyspepsia (chronic stomach pain without actual ulcers), and that it still might be TMS related...
But hell, if the pill works, knock yourself out! I think that sometimes, even with TMS, you have to pick your battles in terms of minor symptoms that are easily controlled by meds (like me and my claritin-D...).
(Of course, I have to give a disclaimer saying that you should consult your physician before making any medical decisions). |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 20:51:53
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So you want to know how depression is a TMS equivalent, I'll do my best to explain a line of thinking that works for me.
When we have TMS in our bodies, we experience a feeling in a certain area of our body but that doesn't mean we are injured. we are actually perfectly healthy in that area if its TMS. This is a fact, right?
In life, we feel depressed about a situation or about our life in general. So does feeling this way mean the situation or our life is hopeless? No, of course not, its just how we feel about it, which actually has no truth because in life things are hardly ever hopeless. There is almost always an upside, or a lession waiting to be learned from our experiences, and that is a fact, right? Depression isn't truthful, it always distorts towards the downside or the negative aspect of what is happening.
Sure bad things happen but mature, healthy people can learn grow change and move on! |
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Hilary
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 11:56:34
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This is a fascinating thread. Depression has always been my default symptom, and the thing is that I've read so much about it (depression), and been diagnosed with such an interesting variety of things (anxiety, major depression, etc) that it's proving to be the TMS monster under the bed, for me. I got over my back pain and skin rash really fast (about 2 months in all), but the depression is the thing I can't seem to shake. Now I'm thinking about it, I do exactly the same thing with depression that I did, very briefly, with back pain: treating it extremely seriously, thinking I mustn't do anything that will exacerbate it, looking up symptoms online, getting scared to death that it'll get worse and I'll end up in a psych ward somewhere (not that that's ever happened before, or anything like). In fact I seem to worship at its altar, rather than simply ignore it.
The problem I have with depression is (and I feel almost embarrassed asking this because it sounds so dumb but there you go) that I can't think of how else a person would feel if he/she has certain life circumstances. For example, if I'm single and don't want to be, wouldn't that automatically bring on depression? How do I treat this in TMS terms - surely a situation like this just DOES cause frustration and sadness? |
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 14:04:00
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| Surely it does cause frustration/depression if you look at it from the point of view of what you don't have. But what if you looked it at from the point of view of what you do have for example a chance to work on yourself, future opportunities to meet someone special etc.. etc... |
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Calvin
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 14:40:35
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quote:
This is a fascinating thread. Depression has always been my default symptom, and the thing is that I've read so much about it (depression), and been diagnosed with such an interesting variety of things (anxiety, major depression, etc) that it's proving to be the TMS monster under the bed, for me. I got over my back pain and skin rash really fast (about 2 months in all), but the depression is the thing I can't seem to shake. Now I'm thinking about it, I do exactly the same thing with depression that I did, very briefly, with back pain: treating it extremely seriously, thinking I mustn't do anything that will exacerbate it, looking up symptoms online, getting scared to death that it'll get worse and I'll end up in a psych ward somewhere (not that that's ever happened before, or anything like). In fact I seem to worship at its altar, rather than simply ignore it.
I almost fell off my chair reading this, Hillary. I thought I was the only one that felt this way. I also obsess and OVER obsess about depression, look up stuff online (or stop off at the library or bookstore and read up about it, surely to find horror stories). I get scared to death as well, thinking I'll wind up calling an ambulance or go to the hospital if things get worse. After all, doing all that reading and research has thoroughly conditioned me to feel this way - surely the news has no shortage of such stories and they jump out at us in our sensitized state. Anxiety and depression are brother and when it comes to mental health.
I've had the bipolar label dumped on me - and was drugged up to the point where I could barely function. After researching bipolar, I realized my shrink made a pretty bad diagnosis and I stopped seeing her. My mistake was telling her I have 'mood swings'. Who the hell DOESN'T have a mood swing? My swings were nothing compared to what I've read.
Today was a pretty rough day emotionally. I still went to work and acted as if nothing was wrong, however, I felt so emotionally numb inside that it literally hurt. I wound up calling a friend for some support. Days like this I think I'd rather have the physical pain back, but a little voice in the back of my head says that you must face and accept this as well if you want to become fully recovered.
quote:
The problem I have with depression is (and I feel almost embarrassed asking this because it sounds so dumb but there you go) that I can't think of how else a person would feel if he/she has certain life circumstances. For example, if I'm single and don't want to be, wouldn't that automatically bring on depression? How do I treat this in TMS terms - surely a situation like this just DOES cause frustration and sadness?
I don't know if this'll help, but I'm married with kids - I've always wanted to be married and have a family - yet I'm going through this depressive episode right now. I'm looking real hard to see why I'm feeling this way, and I'm drawing a blank. Aside from some tough financial times right now (never had them while single!!), things couldn't be better. Family is healthy, kiddies are getting great grades in school, my job is fantastic, and we have a cluster of single and married couples that we go out with almost every weekend.
Then again, my friend told me, maybe I *need* to have something going on. Its like I sabatoge myself for feeling too good.
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drziggles
USA
292 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 15:00:39
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Calvin:
I think that in many cases depression and emotional "emptiness" are caused by a discrepancy between how you feel and how you think you should feel.
For example, you say that you always wanted marriage and children. I'm speculating here, but if you felt unhappy when you were single and unconsciously (or consciously, even) expected these things to "make you happy", then you may be disappointed with how you feel now.
[Stupid analogy warning:]
This is the same reason that so many celebrities are generally miserable wrecks with frequent drug and alcohol problems (oversimplification). They feel unfulfilled and unhappy, shoot for fame to make them happy, don't feel any different once they get it
--->depression.
External causes of happiness are sure to be short-lived and disappointing, and digging to find the real source of discontent, possibly through therapy, is the way to go. Very similar to TMS, as well, ain't it?...
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Calvin
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 15:46:13
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No, actually I was pretty happy when single!!
I'm actually in therapy now to see what the hell is going on in my little head. I do like the therapy, but it can get kind of expensive and sometimes this board provides better insight than my therapist does. |
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wrldtrv
666 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 23:17:05
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| I have a different experience from many of you regarding pain vs depression/anxiety. For me, pain or other disturbing physical symptoms heighten my depression/anxiety. Maybe it is the unknown that makes me feel so terrible; not knowing what the symptoms mean, if anything. Therefore every day of symptoms is filled with dread of this unknown, all the while sure that it means something very bad. When the symptoms abate, so does my depression and anxiety. (but depr/anx also problems for me in their own right) |
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Hilary
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 03:41:20
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Calvin, this is getting off topic a bit, but I just wanted to mention 2 books that have helped me a TON with my depression: "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie, and "The Sedona Method" by someone who's name I've forgotten, but you can look it up on line. Both these books take what I call the "turning into the skid" approach, i.e. if you're in a car that's skidding, the best thing to do is turn the wheel INTO the skid, although that seems counterintuitive and your every instinct is to do everything you can to move in the opposite direction. I've found that this can be a very helpful metaphor when dealing with depression. I've done a lot of therapy, and although I've been helped by it a lot, I also feel that there is a lot to be gained from turning into the depression and accepting it (just for now, in this moment), not fighting it and struggling against it. (In my experience this also works for panic, anxiety and even pain: when you TRY to feel anxiety or pain, it seems to vanish).
The Sedona Method is about trying to welcome your feelings, then release them (again, just in this moment, just for now). And Byron Katie believes that mental suffering starts when you argue with reality. She uses 4 questions to get you to reverse that suffering. To take your example it sounds like one of your thoughts/beliefs is "I should not be depressed because my wife/kids/everything is going well". Questioning that belief may prove to be very helpful for you. This isn't some kind of Zen airy-fairy rubbish (although the principles do remind me a lot of Buddhist teachings) - it actually works. Because the truth is that if you're depressed, and you think you shouldn't be depressed, you're only going to be more depressed. |
Edited by - Hilary on 10/06/2005 03:46:33 |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 10/06/2005 : 09:47:36
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Hilary, I am so glad you recommended Byron Katie's work on this board. Her website is www.thework.org
Here are the four questions: http://www.thework.com/FourQuestions.asp
They may not make sense unless you read the book first. The recording of the book is better....
The work she helps to awaken in us all is simply amazing. She does say that if you think others need her work that you probably need it yourself:) I found her work to be very beneficial in my TMS therapy.
Her new book, which I have also read, is also very good. It is called: "I Need Your Love - Is That True?" |
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Calvin
USA
46 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 05:58:11
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Hilary, you're not going off topic at all. I've heard a lot about the Sedona method, but haven't tried it. I will check that book out immediately.
When you say "turning into the skid", this is EXACTLY what Claire Weekes says - to just go into panic and depression, this way you lose your fear of it and it doesn't seem as bad as its made out to be. Letting your defenses down, stop being tense and accept. Willingly accept anxiety and depression, because what we fear most always surfaces.
I noticed I used to fear the rapid heartbeat, the unreality feelings, the dizzy spells - once I lost my fear of them, they stopped. Right now I'm having rough depressive dips - where they last maybe 20 minutes or so, feelings of utter despair and blackness. Guess what? I'm fearing them, and they're happening. Is it something new or is it just that my mind has latched onto them as a fear?
And you raised an EXCELLENT point about "should". I am beating myself up for saying, "I'm happily married, great job, kids are fine, no problems at all, why am I having these black depressive episodes?" Substitute "black depressive episodes" for the flu, my car tire having a flat....you know? Just because things are going well, doesn't mean they're perfect, doesn't mean something can't go wrong. Sometimes I think I've been brainwashed by reading TOO much material in the past about anxiety and depression. Dr. Sopher says that we should forget everything we read about pain in the past - this is so hard to do, yet I know thats the answer.
One post that I came across through here made perfect sense:
It is known that a fish has no memory. It does have an autonomous system but the fish has almost no thinking brain.
Suppose autonomous system starts a tms-like process in the fish. Dr Sarno says it is autonomous system which starts it all (although if a fish cannot think should not have unconscious mind either-lets suppose it happens anyway-). The fact is that it will fail totally for only one reason: fish have no memory.
Suppose for a moment you could forget the pain you got the day before. Tomorrow morning you might feel some pain again, let's say moderate pain, but you do not remember to have been in pain the day before so you will guess the pain will cease and of course you will continue with your daily tasks despite the pain. We usually don't cease our activities the first day we feel moderate pain. Suppose this process happens every day. You don't remember having pain te day before. Eventually the pain will actually cease because: you don't have the fear to recurring pain; your brain will not pay atention to the area in pain; the pain will have no control over your mind.
The strongest force that keeps tms pain going on is precisely the memory of the pain. If we think on the pain, we read about pain, we talk about pain, we visit physicians, we re-read our latest mri, we think on our future with pain, etc.etc. we are reinforcing the image of pain in our memory.
That explains why Dr.Sarno recommends to return to normal activities and forget about everything we have heard about pain. Because thinking on it and remembering it will perpetuate it.
If I had no memory of how I felt yesterday or the day before, I'd likely not have any black cloud today. Its the memory, not the actual feeling, that keeps it going. |
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Hilary
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2005 : 14:21:23
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Brilliant, Calvin. Absolutely. You will find echoes of this in Sedona and Byron Katie. There is no pain in the present moment; if you try to find pain in this moment, you can't. Pain is only memory. This is a difficult concept to get your mind around until you do, if you see what I mean. I do, from time to time, and then I forget again, but it's an amazing concept to return to.
I think you're already on to a great insight here: why not simply allow yourself to enter that black depressive episode, the next time it surfaces? Stop fighting it, stop telling yourself you shouldn't feel like that. Welcome it and dive into it, as the Sedona Method suggests. The reality is that you are depressed, and I suspect that freedom comes when you allow yourself to simply experience that reality and stop fighting it. (Which is not the same as giving up, not at all!)
Peter, I'm glad you're a fan of Katie's too. I've read her new book, too, and I went to one of her sessions when I lived in New York. I'm hoping to attend a week-long worksshop with her at some point. In my book she ranks 2nd to Sarno in terms of life-changing work. |
Edited by - Hilary on 10/07/2005 14:24:31 |
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exRSied
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 17:34:40
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The collected wisdom in this thread (IMO) seems to be:
1) reading TOO much material about anxiety and depression MIGHT make you more depressed.
2) Denying it's existence WILL make you more depressed.
3) You should accept the reality that you're going through a depression (at the moment) but not "give up".
Quotes I love:
TURN INTO THE SKID
"if you're in a car that's skidding, the best thing to do is turn the wheel INTO the skid, although that seems counterintuitive and your every instinct is to do everything you can to move in the opposite direction. I've found that this can be a very helpful metaphor when dealing with depression"
Some insights:
Q:" For example, if I'm single and don't want to be, wouldn't that automatically bring on depression?"
A: "But what if you looked it at from the point of view of what you do have. ie; a chance to work on yourself, future opportunities to meet someone special etc.."
....
Opportunities. I have a fear of missed opportunities. I'm only 21 and I desperatedly fear not making the right desicions when that once in a lifetime "opportunity" comes.
I don't want to end up feeling "ARGH! I won't ever have the chance to do that again!! I'm in another phase of life now...".
Does anybody feel that way?
If you could meet your 21 years old-self again, what wisdom would you share with yourself?
----
A few quotes I like related to the concepts mentioned in this thread:
1) "Once you accept that life is suffering, you will have peace of mind."
Life didn't go "as planned" for me. I wasn't supposed to be living like this. I still remember how RELIEVED I felt when I accepted this seemingly OBVIOUS fact of life. I had a stupid grin on my face all day. :P It's too easy to forget though ...
2) "The best way to deal with grief is to go through it."
I feel the hardest part is coming up with solutions after going through the grief. It's nice to cry, accept feeling down and everything, but what do you do afterwards? lol.
3) About reading "too much" on depression:
I used to do that all the time! Trying to find out EVERYTHING that's wrong about me so I can "fix" it. I told myself: "I MUST KNOW THE ROOTS OF THE PROBLEM FIRST!". But this took longer than I thought. A "problem" could be traced back endlessly to other circumstances. It made me lethargic, lifeless, self-absorbed and depressed. I wasn't getting anywhere. Then a wise person told me:
"Enthusiasm grows when you focus on solutions and opportunities, not problems and circumstances"
So I started to look for solutions and surprisingly, I had so much energy I didnt know what to do with it. :D
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Depression as equivalent?
