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cheeryquery
Canada
56 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2005 : 08:31:04
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I have read Dr. Sarno's books and I thought he was saying if you are aware of a problem it wasn't the cause of your TMS. It had to be something unconscious. Do I have that wrong?
I am aware of all kinds of rage about several different things. Basically, I feel very stifled by my religion, my family life and just not being able to do what I want (the friggin' universe always gets in my face). I am way too ambitious and expect huge things of myself that plainly aren't going to happen. I also want to have fun, and life isn't much fun, especially lately. I am pretty much insatiable and, although I know it, I can't seem to help it.
But I thought Dr. Sarno was saying it HAD to be something else and I couldn't, for the life of me, think of what.
I keep myself relatively sane through meditation, the Sarno steps, etc. but my TMS is really bad, despite my best efforts. Right now, I am so stiff that I can hardly walk. I used to have classic fibromyalgia but this is different and very painful.
Comments appreciated! |
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PeterW
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 10:00:27
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Cheeryquery, that could be me talking, substituting some other things for the cause of the rage, including pain and disabilty itself which has stifled my dreams and ambitions repeatedly over the years. I even lost several years to CFS (related to fibromyalgia some say). Now that I seemingly have conquered that monster over the past few years, a seemingly minor back strain 6 months ago in a place I'd had surgery before has flared into a major disabling episode. 'Here we go again' I think . . . 'life was just getting going again, and now this'!
I think it is the awareness that this rage (and/or anxiety, fear, profound sadness) could be CAUSING the symptoms that is the crucial point. Like you, I think I'm seemingly pretty aware of what my issues are, and there are plenty. I too have done meditation, lots of reading, breathing, relaxation, letting go. It helped me cope through very rough years and somehow I kept myself relatively sane through it all.
And maybe that's the whole problem. In keeping ourselves relatively sane on the surface, we try our best to be good people, to be as nice as we can be to all around us, and to be grateful for what we do have. And all the while we carry around this insatiable but stifled ambition and something within us is screaming in fury. |
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cheeryquery
Canada
56 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 11:37:16
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I just finished a long talk with someone about this topic. I told him that my inner drive is to maximize my life experience. But I think I need to remind myself that my rage for experience IS insatiable. It rests only briefly and then it wants to go again.
Ex: I have been a foster parent to extremely difficult teens for many years. Nobody can work with some of these kids but I get much pleasure out of being able to have them in my home and even get along very well with them most of the time. One Sunday night, around midnight, when nothing much had happened for days, I started thinking, "I've got to get out of here and find something more interesting to do." At that precise moment, the police burst through the door, handcuffed my kid and hauled her off to jail. They wouldn't talk to me, just hustled her off into the night, saying they'd explain later. Of course, they didn't want to jeopordize their investigation by letting her know just what they were after her for. Very unusal cop behavior. Anyway, I was just delighted by this new experience. People tell me it would have traumatized them but not me.
It's not that I don't get stressed out, btw. In fact, I can scare myself into some real doozy anxiety attacks. But it takes a lot.
Anyway, my friend pointed out that Helen Keller maximized her life experience but in a very different way. That made me think.
I've borrowed a signature from another message board I frequent. It says it all.
There are old mushroom hunters,
There are bold mushroom hunters,
But there are no old, bold mushroom hunters.
I'm glad I'm not a mushroom hunter.
www.fluentphrases.com (you'll need to turn your sound on) |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 11:41:27
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The rage that Dr. Sarno describes is not rage in the traditional sense. It is unconscious rage that cannot be felt. Think of it as a pool of rage whose spicket is controlled by a wide variety of factors, certainly including things you are consciously aware of such as those you mention.
But unconscious rage is really just a metaphor. I believe in many cases the root of TMS can be traced to two things:
1. The pressure you put on yourself to do/be something you'd rather not.
2. The unconscious anger that comes from #1.
Using your example as a hypothetical, you are stifled by your religion, but maybe you feel an obligation to follow that religion. The child inside you is in a rage about that. If you could do whatever you wanted, without regard to other people's feelings or societal expectations, might you walk away from that religion?
The same thing goes for your family. You may love your family very much, but part of you might just want to run away from it as fast as you can because, to put it simply, you'd rather be left alone. But you can't do that, so the child inside you is in a rage.
It is this child inside you that is the unconscious rage. He just wants to be left alone, to be lazy, to not have to answer to anybody, to not have to earn a living, or raise a family, or be kind to others, or be perfect at everything. The child just wants to be taken care of. And he resents the pressures in your life.
It could be that if your TMS pain is really bad, that there is something going on in your life that even you don't realize is causing the child to be angry. It may help your recovery to figure out what this is. |
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Bazz
Netherlands
34 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 12:28:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
The rage that Dr. Sarno describes is not rage in the traditional sense. It is unconscious rage that cannot be felt.
I don't understand that you say that the unconscious rage cannot be felt. To my opinion you can feel the unconscious rage quite clearly. At the moments that I feel angry because the child in me feels inferior, I feel that the pain arises in my neck. I can't really discover the thoughts that are behind the unconscious rage, but I can obvious feel them. Unconscious rage is an emotion. When you talk about emotions you talk about feelings. |
Edited by - Bazz on 09/20/2005 12:31:14 |
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Fox
USA
496 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 13:06:20
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| I believe that Sarno talked about both unconscious rage and current anger-provoking events as having a role in TMS symptom production - with the emphasis on the former....I think that perhaps the unconscious rage is always there, based on early childhood experiences, and without Freudian-type psychoanalysis, we're most likely not going to be able to uncover the source of that rage. However, that existing unconscious rage can be amplified and brought closer to the surface (to the level of consciousness) - which results in the need for physical distraction to prevent this occurrence - when one runs into a current day situation which has some similarity to the early traumatic events....Just my two cents. |
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cheeryquery
Canada
56 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 16:13:33
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Dave, your explanation was just what I thought Sarno said. At the same time, I agree with Bazz that I certainly do feel rage when I can't get what I want. Just like a little kid. I don't think that these are different types of rage but rather different levels.
You are quite right that I am not going to walk away from my religion and/or family, home, etc. But they certainly annoy me. Forever wanting things. Like right now the dishwasher wants unloading and the canary wants his cage cleaned. Aarrgghh. I, on the other hand, want to watch Judge Judy, have a nap, read my new mystery, and have somebody else make dinner. Preferably all of the above, with chocolates and the telephone turned off. I'm gonna have it, too, or at least as much as possible.
I also don't think the rage necessarily comes from childhood trauma. Sarno says everybody has it because everybody is thwarted at times.
My husband can be a basket case of TMS but he has no sense of rage at all. He thinks he is "sad". Perhaps we use words that are acceptable to us and our culture to describe our condition. I think he is just as angry as anybody else. And I'm probably sad but I'm not interested in feeling that.
I am sure sick of this nonsense. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 08:09:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Bazz
I don't understand that you say that the unconscious rage cannot be felt. To my opinion you can feel the unconscious rage quite clearly.
This is pure semantics here. Unconscious by definition cannot be felt. The rage that Dr. Sarno speaks about is not rage in the traditional sense. Perhaps he should have chosen a different term.
It is important to understand that TMS symptoms stem from things that we do not feel. Of course, things that we do feel contribute to the unconscious rage, but not directly to the TMS. This is why sometimes we get TMS symptoms apparently out of the blue, when we're actually feeling OK emotionally. We struggle to find what is bothering us because the TMS symptoms are present. At that moment, the stuff we don't feel has threatened to come to the surface, which is why our brain induced the symptoms. |
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cheeryquery
Canada
56 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 12:18:39
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Thanks, Dave. So, the source of TMS is always unacknowledged feelings.
That's what I thought.
I am usually pretty good at digging up unconscious stuff but not this time. I have plantar fasciitis and for the past year I have been barely able to walk. Since I'm going to Turkey and Israel (in just ten days), I need resolution. Any ideas?
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Bazz
Netherlands
34 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 12:33:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
Originally posted by Bazz
I don't understand that you say that the unconscious rage cannot be felt. To my opinion you can feel the unconscious rage quite clearly.
This is pure semantics here. Unconscious by definition cannot be felt. The rage that Dr. Sarno speaks about is not rage in the traditional sense. Perhaps he should have chosen a different term.
It is important to understand that TMS symptoms stem from things that we do not feel. Of course, things that we do feel contribute to the unconscious rage, but not directly to the TMS. This is why sometimes we get TMS symptoms apparently out of the blue, when we're actually feeling OK emotionally. We struggle to find what is bothering us because the TMS symptoms are present. At that moment, the stuff we don't feel has threatened to come to the surface, which is why our brain induced the symptoms.
I am still not convinced and am also quite surpised that you give this explanation. I have read both books of dr. Sarno many times and I have really the impression that the whole TMS-issue is about repressed emotions. One of the citations of dr. Sarno was nota bene that patients shouldn't make their recovering too complicated, according to him it's all about conscious experiencing of repressed emotions en find a proper way to release them. (journaling, acknowledging rage or fear etc.) Aother message that dr. Sarno gives his patients is often: "We gonna try to stop the body reacting on your emotions."
Actually my TMS-pain don't come "Out of the blue" most of the time. I feel really clearly the internal rage sometimes and then I really feel the bloodflow decreasing afterwards and increasing the pain in my neck. When I am in a large new group I sometimes really feel fearful. After that I feel the bloodflow to my hands decreasing and the pain increasing.
To my opinion your TMS-explanation is too rational. It's all about repressed emotions (we don't want to show the environnement that we are in rage) and physical reactions. Too much negative energy that's locked up in the body.
I am interested in your reaction.
Barry
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 13:32:12
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quote:
I need resolution. Any ideas?
The only idea I have is to change your attitude, because as you know, it is impossible to control TMS. The frustration that comes from lack of results can add to the symptoms, because it reinforces the self-imposed pressure.
I think acceptance is a powerful tool in fighting TMS. Accept the symptoms as a benign signal that there is something going on in your life emotionally that you are not fully experiencing. Try to find what it is, but don't try too hard, and don't get frustrated if the symptoms continue. Just accept the pain and do your best to ignore it.
Bazz: my explanation is not contradictory to the idea of repressed emotions. Repressed emotions add to the pool of unconscious rage. This is Dr. Sarno's explanation.
I am curious where the citation you mention comes from. To my knowledge Dr. Sarno has not indicated that TMS recovery is about "conscious experiencing of repressed emotions." If anything, it is the opposite. He knows of one and only one patient ("Helen" in his book) that has actually accomplished this.
But you are right in that one should not try to make it too complicated. My explanation is based on Dr. Sarno's lectures.
But first of all, he may not have it all right, at least not from the scientific perspective. Our brains are far more complex than humans can possibly comprehend. Second, it's not necessary to understand, or even agree with, the science behind the theory. It's only necessary to do the work: repudiate structural diagnoses, ignore the symptoms, resume physical activities, try to figure out what emotions you are repressing. Mostly, it's about reconditioning yourself -- breaking old habits. The pain, and your reactions to it, are learned and need to be un-learned. |
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redskater
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2005 : 17:37:49
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thanks Dave, a few "light bulbs" just went off. I think sometimes we make it much harder to understand than it really is. I know I can intellectualize it until nothing makes sense anymore. My husband says I'm too smart for my own good. I think he's right!
cheers,
Gaye |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 06:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by redskater
My husband says I'm too smart for my own good. I think he's right!
It seems a common trait with TMS people.
Being over-analytical about TMS is, in a way, a symptom. Thinking too much is a distraction when we really should be feeling. I call it "running up into your head."
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2005 : 12:33:59
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Interesting thread! My experience is that repressed emotions can be felt if you learn what is bothering you inside. I don't buy Sarno's claim that you can't feel repressed emotion. I have been working intensively on the glazier of repressed emotion for a while now and I know what my triggers are. In therapy I can start talking in a relaxed manner about the disconnect between myself and my mom and low and behold I start getting the body fear response. I am very familiar with this and have felt it hundreds of times. I know from experience that that is fear of my own repressed rage. The rage is now accessible with a little desire and out it comes. Then follows the hurt and the sadness. Its like the rage is the gate to the hurt and sadness underneath.
I may be an unusual case but I think Sarno should not claim that repressed emotion is unfeelable. This was what I believed for a long time until my emotions showed that that thinking was folly for my individual situation. |
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cheeryquery
Canada
56 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2005 : 22:15:25
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Well, this has been very interesting but my feet are still killing me and I'm about to mess up a perfectly good, month-long vacation because my unconscious mind doesn't like the life I have chosen to live. Or something like that. I keep thinking that I understand what's going on with this TMS stuff but as Dave said: "Our brains are far more complex than humans can possibly comprehend."
I have a week left before leaving. Perhaps I need to accept that I can have a good time whether or not my feet hurt. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 08:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by cheeryquery
...Perhaps I need to accept that I can have a good time whether or not my feet hurt.
The key word is accept.
The more you try to get rid of the foot pain, the more frustrated you will get because there is nothing you can consciously do to make the pain go away. Recovery from TMS takes time ... you cannot rush it. It is a long-term process ... a life-long change in the way you think about pain and react to it.
So you are on the right track. Accept that you can have a good time despite the pain. Have disdain for the pain! Tell it you won't allow it to ruin your trip. Take some OTC pain killers and do your best to ignore the pain. When you are aware of it, just remind yourself that it is totally benign and you are not hurting yourself. When you get frustrated think about the things in your life that are causing rage, but don't dwell on it or go too crazy trying to "figure it out." You can't figure it out, and even if you could, you wouldn't know it.
So just go on with your life and forget about the pain, as best as you can. Obsessing about it is just another TMS symptom. |
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windy
USA
84 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 09:34:03
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CheeryQuery,
My experience is that tms symptoms *abate* considerably on vacation. Sarno says this is one of the indicators you are dealing with tms. For me the lightbulb went off when I read in his most recent book the sentence to this effect: "you can windsurf but you can't sit on a soft couch." LOL! Windsurf can be quite the spine wrenching experience. Couch sitting - well - not so much.
In fact, with all my recent footpain, during a monthlong trip that including some trekking on rough terrain my feet were way less painfull than on a New York sidewalk, even in the same exact footwear! So there you go. You'll have a great time. |
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Andrew2000
40 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 18:36:22
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| I agree with Dave ... you can have a great time on vacation if you can try and keep the pain somewhat in perspective (on an emotional level) ... Also am still getting over some pretty serious foot pain these past few months ... was on vacation for the past few weeks (and did not experience the Sarno finding of feeling less pain on vacation ... sometimes it was really bad) ... At the time, I hadn't heard about TMS -- so for me, I think having more time free to think about it - made me obsess even more ... but ... I got through it and despite my fears had a great time on vacation, did more walking and sightseeing than I thought I ever would be able to, and it's given me new hope to conquer this thing once and for all ... so my hope for you is that you'll have a GREAT time on vacation ... if the pain is there, say "hello" to it, acknowledge it, but then just move on ... you have such insight into TMS (more than I had at the time), use your knowledge to your advantage if you can ... Don't be afraid. |
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miehnesor
USA
430 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 10:46:27
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quote:
Originally posted by windy
CheeryQuery,
My experience is that tms symptoms *abate* considerably on vacation.
One of the clues to my TMS that it has basically very little to do with the here and now is that symptoms did not change at all when I went on vacation despite the fact that I did hate my job and was all too glad to be on vacation. So unlike Leegold- getting out of an unpleasant situation temporarily, vacation from work, had no affect on symptoms. Then when I quite the job and got away permanantly again I saw no affect. I had to probe in the past to make any headway on symptoms.
I wonder whether my experience can be generalized in that chronic TMS that is basically unaffected by present day experience is likely caused by childhood unresolved issues. |
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cheeryquery
Canada
56 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2005 : 19:53:03
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Thanks so much to everybody. When I need a pep talk or some good advice I'll go to an Internet cafe in Istanbul or Tel Aviv, or wherever, and look up this thread.
I really apppreciate your help. 
There are old mushroom hunters,
There are bold mushroom hunters,
But there are no old, bold mushroom hunters.
I'm glad I'm not a mushroom hunter.
www.fluentphrases.com (you'll need to turn your sound on) |
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Let me get this straight ...
