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diverlarry
USA
44 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2004 : 11:49:42
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Background:
I have had back pain for years. It would get worse then better but never go away. I eventually started to use back cushions,stopped doing things that were bad for my back etc.
Recently i went to doctor who said i was fine and sent me to a "back boot camp". Bacically this is aerobic exerices and weight lifting.
The weight lifting exercises are all the exercises that are suppose to be bad for your back. Dead lifts, rows, extensions etc. After 3 weeks i ended up in the emergency room with sever back spasms. It was to much to fast. Six weeks later i go back to the doctor and get a MRI. It shows a ruptured disk, torn disk. My doctor looks at it and she says....your fine get back to exercising.
This time i went to the gym and did my own exercises. I have always lifed weights. I really love lifting. But i had stopped because it was suppose to be bad for my back. I stared doing the same exercises that messed me up. I also got rid of all my back cushions, special chairs. This was very very difficult. (Programming). I also read "Back Sense"(my doctor recomended this book), Dr Sarno's's books and seen his tapes. I know i have a TMS and have been working at it. It all makes sense now.
Question:
He says to stop all exercises and stretching for the back.
But everything you do involves the back. Walking and swimming is good for the back. So do you stop walking and swimming ?
Lifting weights to get strong is good for you. Stretching helps you from getting injured. So do you only do non-specific back exercises and stretches ? The back is involved in everthing you do. I know that lifting weights and stretching will NOT solve my TMS problems. Finding out what's really bothering me and what im suppressing is what will help me. But they make me healthy and strong. They also overcome my fear of using my back. I was scared just to bend over. Now i do deadlifts, rows. These are exercises i use to do but stopped because they were suppose to be bad for me. So yes i do specific stretches and lifting for the back. Your whole body should be fit and healthy. So to do only non-specific back exercises does not seem possible or wise. I love to work out.
Im doing much better now. I have my ups and downs but am confident. Whats really helped has been thinking about whats reaaly bothering me.
So im interested in other people thoughts about specific back exercises.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 12:36:14
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quote:
He says to stop all exercises and stretching for the back.
More precisely, stop all exercises designed to alleviate the pain.
Exercises for overall health and fitness are not to be avoided. There is no reason to stop working out, in fact, it can be very helpful both physically and mentally. There is no reason to avoid specific exercises that are "bad for your back."
On the other hand, it is important not to do any exercises with the mindset that those exercises are "good for your back." Doing exercises with the intent of alleviating your back pain is thinking physical; treating TMS is about thinking psychological.
As for stretching, it is never recommended. Stretching TMS-prone muscles can make them worse. Stretching to alleviate pain is contradictory to the TMS approach. Sarno believes (and it has been backed up by recent studies) that stretching does not prevent injury. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 13:04:36
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Diverlarry,
Good post. Read p.146-147 Of MBP, "PHYSICAL ACTIVITY AND THE FEAR FACTOR". Sarno outlines there how to get back to exercise and what to expect from TMS as you do so. He says that the path may be slow and uneven. Sarno does not say to stop all exercises for the back and stretching. He says to do them judiciously, but STOP thinking that they will FIX or HEAL your back because there is NOTHING wrong with your back, besides normal aging and TMS pain--harmless but often excruciatingly painfull.
Diverlarry, also go to page 164 of MBP. I think this is where your confusion about "not" doing back exercises and stretches may have arisen from. Sarno says, "So I advise my patients to discontinue exercises designed to protect or otherwise help the back. The back needs no protection...Physical acitivity of all kinds is highly recommended..."
I can see how this can be construed as, don't do back exercises and stretches. But what Sarno is saying is DO them but not with the thought that they are healing or protecting the back. THE BACK NEEDS NO PROTECTION. I proved this to myself when I did a three day Yoga back-bending workshop, when I was in my accute lower back pain/TMS state. I did every move including the most extreme back-bends and afterwards my back never felt better. (My hip is another story). The last time a doc looked at my back x-rays he said that they looked great. I had originally been told by a chiro, from his x-rays, that I had a pinched nerve at the L-4, L-5 vertebraes.
Your Doctor sounds outstanding and courageous. Could you please tell me where he is. I'd love to see him (if needed) someday.
Keep reading Sarno. Don't worry about the mis-interpetation of what he said. I did the same thing with my hip. I didn't believe that the "little" he wrote in MBP applied to me and didn't feel he wrote enough about hips. I imagine that many people feel Sarno did not expound enough about "their" particular problem. I think this is our TMS gremlin playing tricks with our mind to prevent us from JUST DOING IT".
Welcome to the board,
tt |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2004 : 13:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
He says to stop all exercises and stretching for the back.
More precisely, stop all exercises designed to alleviate the pain.
Exercises for overall health and fitness are not to be avoided. There is no reason to stop working out, in fact, it can be very helpful both physically and mentally. There is no reason to avoid specific exercises that are "bad for your back."
On the other hand, it is important not to do any exercises with the mindset that those exercises are "good for your back." Doing exercises with the intent of alleviating your back pain is thinking physical; treating TMS is about thinking psychological.
As for stretching, it is never recommended. Stretching TMS-prone muscles can make them worse. Stretching to alleviate pain is contradictory to the TMS approach. Sarno believes (and it has been backed up by recent studies) that stretching does not prevent injury.
Good post Dave. I think you were able to say what I was trying to in much fewer words.
On STRETCHING: I think perhaps the puropose of stretcing is an important one. It could be to do a body scan before doing some phyical activity that could become balististic and result in strain, sprain or other injury. It is not a warmup which would be done before. The purpose of streching would be to remind the body of its state. To get into one's body. To gain a kinestheic awareness of what it is realisticly capable and not capable of doing in the
upcoming event.
Regarding a TMS body part, it probably is best not to go there. Give it a rest. Ignore it. Don't give the part the attention the gremlin is seeking. Don't refire or fan the flame of pain. I think after some time you could check into it by gently going there. Maybe sneak up on it slowly. Go up to it from this side of the fence and take a look at it and then walk away from it until it leaves the neighborhood.
If one is doing a non-balistic activity, like a routine daily jog you could forgo the streching. You can warmup and stretch out during the course of the activity, performing it with kinesthtic awareness. I would say this is very difficult to do during competiton. The pressure to win and save face could override awareness. So as Walt Stack, the founder of the Dolphin Club Runners used to say, "Start slowly and taper off." He also said "It's us turkeys at the back of the pack that make you lead runners look good."
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diverlarry
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 06:33:57
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Thanks Dave and Tennis Tom.
I have my doubts about stretching. I was never sure that it actually did any good. But its been pounded in my head to stretch.(My doctor,PT's, books). When i played sports when i was younger i rarely stretched.(except when i studied karate) I realize i have been using stretching as a "preventation" to back pain. If it helped i would not have had any. It is a constant reminder of my body when i do stretch. I use to stretch all day. Now i just do it one time at night and when i work out. Its a habit(conditioning) that will be tough to break. Everything else DR Sarno has said has been working so i will try it.
Actually it will be a relief not to strectch,since i really don't enjoy it. I will also do my workout with the that mindset that those exercises will not alleviate my back pain. This will be difficult since im using my back.
Yes, im one of the "turkeys" who makes the others look good.
Tennis Tom: My doctor is a woman. She is in the Boston area. You can always email me if you want her name.
Thanks again.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 07:54:29
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Stretching should be an easy habit to break -- just stop doing it! 
The one exercise I do in the gym that is not "good for my back" is the leg press. Inevitably I feel some lower back pain while doing that exercise. I just ignore it. I don't avoid the exercise. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 08:00:38
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Stretching helps you from getting injured.
Apparently, this is not the case. There have been several studies about this particular issue in the last few years. You can Google for stories about them. Bottom line is that, apparently, stretching is absolutely worthless for injury prevention. An athlete is much better off to simply warm up than to stretch before exercise.
What stretching is good for is flexibility, over the very long term. But it must be done very gently, very carefully -- much more gently, I think, than those of us who have been working out for many years are likely to imagine.
I can tell you from personal experience that the gym attitude of "no pain, no gain", when applied to stretching, produces more pain, not less.
The only stretching I do now is part of a 15-minute flexibility routine I do every morning. It is yoga-based, very gentle, and there is only 1 rep of each stretch, for about a minute. That's all. And that has really helped me. But it is so gentle that I would never have imagined that it would so anything at all. |
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diverlarry
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 09:43:14
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Yes i am of gym attitude of "no pain, no gain" when stretching.
I thought the gentle yoga stretching didn't do anything.
I had actually gone to a free yoga class. The stretching was gentle and was more for relaxing. I had never thought to research to see if stretching actually was helpful because thats what i was always told. Your comments have been very helpful. |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2004 : 10:36:26
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| Let me fan the flames of stretching. My instinctivly contrarian mindset tells me that stretching would not be here if it did not serve some imporatant purpose. I reinterate that in a healthy body, that is praparing to compete in activities of a balistic nature, that could cause injury, stretching is a body scan that reminds the competitor of his/hers physical condition. It reminds one of the condition of the muscles and joints. If it's a cold day they will definitly be more subceptible to injury. If you're injured you probably shouldn't be competing but instead resting to quicken the healing process. You can learn a lot from pain though. Stretching an injured part could be used to test it to see how the recovery is going. Stretch up to it but not through it. By injury I include TMS induced pain also, whether it is 100% emotional or any combinnation of physical and emotional. |
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diverlarry
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 07:38:58
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| Interesting points of view. I ma going to back off the stretching and see how it goes. Since im not a athlete preparing for a event it should not make a difference. So guess yoga would be considered stretching also. |
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austingary
USA
95 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 08:23:25
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Larry: I am going to back off the stretching and see how it goes.
Excellent plan. IMO, stretching not only works against any psychological work you are doing but also physically makes your pain worse.
Painful tissues, whether from TMS or something else, do not like to be stretched. That just makes them hurt more. The time for stretching is when you are completely out of pain and, even then, the stretching should be very, very gentle with a very long-term view of results in mind.
Stopping all stretching was one of the best things I did for my recovery from butt and leg pain.
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Sadiesue
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2004 : 13:53:37
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| So, I am a dancer dealing with TMS, so this stretching thing is driving me crazy. I need to stretch to maintain and become more flexible, but it is a really fine line between doing the stretching I need and not using it to deal with pain. Any ideas? Everytime I stretch in certain ways and whenever I do yoga my back really acts up. I know it is probably conditioning, but how do I get over the conditioning? If the back needs no protection, then why can't I stretch? Stretching for the sake of flexibility, that is, I can see why I shouldn't try to "stretch it out" when it hurts. |
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diverlarry
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2004 : 09:32:15
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Sadiesue
i had the same questions you had. im not a dancer or a professional athlete so i don't push my body to extremes. I don't need to get into the extreme positons a dancer does.
I have always stretched for years....yet it has not prevented me from having back pain. Also when i stretched i did it hard.
I like austingary's comments and will give it a try.
Everything else i have done to elimenate conditioning has helped(back cushions,sitting in soft chairs, special chairs).
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What are exercises for the back
