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lisa
6 Posts |
 Posted - 06/28/2005 : 12:29:37
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I was amused to read one of my posts from braintalk discussed here and the assumptions made about me (basically that I dismissed Sarno and mind body approaches without trying them or reading his books)
I have read Sarno's book and watched one of his videos. The physical therapist I go to recommended Amir's book although he did concur with me in that there's a lot of evidence that your mind can modulate the level of pain you're in, but the evidence that large number of conditions that Sarno says have no organic basis is not supported.
I do believe in a mind body approach, I just don't agree with everything he says. I think it's worthwhile to have a discussion about this because it expands the number of people that can benefit from a mind body approach. You don't have to believe in Sarno's theories 100% or even at all the get benefits from what has been shown about mind body approaches. I obtained benefit from mind body approaches without necessarily believing what he says about structural causes and I would like to hear from others have had success that way.
To say I have not read his books thoroughly because I disagree with various things he says is a bit disingenuous. I would like to see a real debate on this rather than just dismissing people that don’t agree with him 100%.
There are studies to show that cognition and affect modulate pain. In particular, there is a fair amount of functional MRI studies to show that fear of pain or the expectation of pain will increase activity in areas of your brain that are involved in pain processing. Learning the neurobiology of pain processing such as the Explain Pain book by Mosley and Butler is known to reduce pain, they believe by reducing fear.
There is strong support for the idea that placebos are physical effect, which also supports the idea that your mind can modulate pain. We know that placebos affect the same brain pathways as opiates. If you give someone an opiate antagonist that blocks the effects of the opiates, the person will no longer have a placebo response.
Functional MRI studies have shown that if you have pain in a certain part of your body, the part of your brain related to that body part changes in a way that makes you more sensitive to pain. However other functional MRI studies have shown that engaging in certain kinds of pain free movement will reverse those changes to some degree and you will become less sensitive to pain. Sarno's book really encourages people to do more movement and that may be part of why it works. There is a lot of support for the use of graded physical activity like Sarno does in the literature.
The other thing about your brain changes due to pain is that if your pain is undermedicated, the pain you're having will tend to continue this process of sensitizing your brain to pain. So adequate pain medication is really important. It's clear from his writings, that one of the thing Sarno does is make sure his patients have adequate pain medication even though he thinks the pain is not due to structural causes.
As for childhood abuse causing chronic pain syndrome, the largest study done with confirmed child abuse found that people with confirmed child abuse has no higher rate of unexplained pain syndromes than people without an abuse background.
Pain. 2001 May;92(1-2):283-93.Childhood victimization and pain in adulthood: a prospective investigation. Raphael KG, Widom CS, Lange G.
I think what works is using your mind to modulate pain. I found the psychological therories to be irrelavant, at least to me.
lisa_tos |
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Baseball65
USA
734 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 12:51:11
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Hi Lisa and welcome.
The person(s) who used your post here was in No way as intelligent or as well spoken as you.They were simply dropping off their opinion in an acidic attack-filled way that was neither appropriate to discussions held here nor in good manner.
Your opinion is yours to own,though as a fully recovered (zero,nada,zilch) ex-chronic pain sufferer,the one thing that seems to separate us could be summed up in your final statement:
quote:
I think what works is using your mind to modulate pain.
You see,I have NO pain to modulate....setting aside Sarno's psychological model,the 100% repudiation of a structural reason for the pain is the keystone to looking for other reasons for it's existence.To try to control or lessen would imply that I had a valid reason to be in pain.
My MRI's 'reason' if you will,would be disc herniation,stenosis,scar tissue,a congenital fusion and a severe tilt in the hips caused by a leg that is longer than the other(The uneven wear on my shoe soles reminds me of it all the time)
After finding no long term resolution through the conventional medical system,I read Sarno,applied his theory(perhaps out of desperation) and have been pain free for years.None of the physical issues were ever dealt with.In fact,I've had some otherwise terrifying accidents since I've read his books that would be consistent with me being partially or fully crippled
(fell backwards from a ladder and knocked unconscious ,had a movie set collapse on my back and shoulders,thrown from a bicycle and flipped over the wrong way...and many others)
But,this is a forum and mine is only one experience,yours is another.Neither one is more or less valuable.suffice it to say that whoever swiped your post used it out of context and in a rude and non-intelligent manner.
peace
Baseball65 |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 13:08:27
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TMS is not about treatment or modulation of pain. If you wanted to get really technical about pain, you could say that since it is merely electrical signals transmitted back and forth from the brain to the body, all pain is really "in the head". But we all know it isn't quite that simple. The main goal of TMS thereapy is to simply regain normal activity without fear of hurting your back or whatever.
TMS is mind body medicine that treats psychological factors as the root cause of most back, etc., which is pain that people routinely and wrongly attribute to structural causes. If you are comfortable with mind body medecine theories that still attribute pain to physical "abnormalities" and that hold the mind only affects the level of pain, then you need to find another place to discuss your beliefs. |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 13:32:18
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PS
Also, it is unfair to criticize Sarno on the basis that his evidence is unsupported. You must really mean to say that it is unsupported by a microscopic, physical observation. That would be true. When are Westerners going to get off this kick. We're already in the year 2005 and we haven't evolved enough in general to realize the impact our minds have. I guess you can't expect much from a "civilization" that kills themselves and the planet they live on. Sarno has a vast reservoir of empirical evidence in the form of 1,000's of case histories, science journals, and "scientific evidence", such as Candice Pert's (yes she is a scientist-woo hoo!!!!!)work. You don't have to believe it, but to say there is no support is incorrect. Just stick to saying you don't buy the theory. And if you are looking for stuff to put under a microscope, take a chemistry class, if you want a solution that works, try TMS. |
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 20:59:14
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All very interesting. I've had great success with Dr. Sarno's approach and yet have never fully embraced the specifics of his theory.
Rage? I dunno. Maybe. For me, anxiety, tension, fear, these are the emotions, readly accessible and readily understandable, that seem to underlie and exacerbate my pain.
On the other hand, I'm convinced that most of the so-called injuries in my life have been and continue to be psychosomatic. Without this core belief (I prefer to call it "understanding" actually to underscore the strength of that embrace), I'd be lost. From it, all good things flow.
I've never sat down with the good doctor, but I suspect that he's not rigidly married to his hypothesis in many of its specifics. To my taste, he's almost quaint in his neo-Freudian approach, but that doesn't alter the fact that he's onto something hugely valuable.
Truly, it could change the world. |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2005 : 22:17:52
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I think Dr. Sarno has the potential to be either a saint or a devil depending on the individual case. And of course its not Sarno himself who i feel tried to be honest in the presentations in his writings. With the exception that his statements about being sure to get checked out physically first really seem only a disclaimer, since he then spells out many of the spinal afflictions and goes into detail about how none of them can be responsible for the pain.
Other than that he has documented what he has found in his experience
and admits not to be a psychologist, but comes up with concept of tms and offers insight into it.
He has the potential to be a saint to those that have had little hope
and great pain, and in using his principles, regained their lives.
What could be better than that? He has literally saved many lives, both physical and emotional and motivated people to rise above pain and the horrors of unnecessary surgery, and dismal outlooks for recovery. I can understand how a recovery of this type would make him more than a hero to many, and deservingly so.
On the dark side of this comes the fact that people go on to expand on these principles in their own ways. Some feeling that there is no such thing as disease, or physical reason for chronic pain. They may feel that if you had a fair amount of tests, that the problem is an issue with inner rage. This infers that medical testing is accurate, that the right tests were conducted, and therefore the problem is emotional.The idea that the body is so self healing that if a weakness doesnt heal, its from emotional issues. One wonders why some people have poor eyesight from birth, or severe allergies from their first days of life.The idea that if the symptoms move around, then its trickery of the brain, tms, when indeed there are many devastating physical illnesses where the symptoms change and move around.
From viewing the posts on this board, it seems that total recovery is in the minority, and that some percentage of success is majority.
A percentage of these may seem slight when one continues to hear of the continued pain though putting years into the practice.
What is especially sad about the concept is that someone is in agony, again and again and being so much a believer, then goes on to psychoanylize themselves, every stress issue, family relationship,
wrong choices they made, when in truth there may be another reason or solution for this pain yet to be seen. |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 08:20:19
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| Yeah, I think that disagreement here and there with some of the fringe or peripheral ideas isn't critical. But there are some "core" concepts that it seems must be accepted or this isn't the place for you. I don't want to be seen as driving anyone away by saying they need to express their views somewhere else, but there is very little to be gained by anyone here if posters can't at the very minimum accept a psychologicial cause for their pain. Certainly Dr. Sarno would be wasting his time accepting such a patient. |
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Scottydog
United Kingdom
330 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 13:22:35
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[What is especially sad about the concept is that someone is in agony, again and again and being so much a believer, then goes on to psychoanylize themselves, every stress issue, family relationship,
wrong choices they made, when in truth there may be another reason or solution for this pain yet to be seen.]
I read Sarno in February and have done quite a bit of journalling and reading of self help books to aid my understanding of why I should have had the health problems I did - far from being 'especially sad' I feel empowered. Able to deal with family problems in a calmer and more pragmatic way. Realising that it wasn't some failing in me that caused my insomnia but the things that happened to me in childhood and teen years that I had no control over. Learning how to change my attitude and beliefs to improve my self confidence and enjoyment of life.
I am still reading, though, and feel there is still a way to go.
Anne
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 14:18:17
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Anne,
i agree with what you are saying and doing for that matter.It is no doubt of benefit for everyone to learn and practice such things.
My reference is to the fact, that someone just might, at this point anyway, have a physical problem which they will of course try to ignore, while wrestling with the thoughts of what is causing this, what did i do wrong, am i feeling guilt, is it my problem with mother and so on. One has to see the possiblity here. And one can see such things happening on this very board, not very far from these posts. Its a difficult business. Your emotions may have caused you to have ulcerations of the stomach for example. The emotions have caused it, and it is wise to look into the reasons, but it is now physical holes, erosions in the stomach, and to ignore this continue to eat tacos etc. certainly wont help matters. To be more positive, correct emotional problems is no doubt a good thing.
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 14:45:22
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From the preface of Dr. Sarno's book:
No one should assume that his or her symptoms are psychologically caused until a physician has ruled out the possibility of serious disease.
Those who do not heed this advice are just not being smart. |
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aorta
76 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 15:56:54
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Hello Dave,
Yes this is the disclaimer i mentioned. Both books then explain how conditions such as herniated disc, and the majority of spinal conditions cannot or should not cause pain.To completely rule out all of the possibilities, muscular skeletal, infectious disease, malabsorption and so on, would be quite the undertaking to say the least, and no pun intended.
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 16:56:09
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I personally don't find this thread helpful as I think almost all people on this board have already gone to numerous doctors and have had many tests. Some of us have recieved some kind of diagnosis while others have completely unexplained pain - like myself. Almost all of us have been through many kinds of treatment to no avail and that is why were are here. We don't need to create the wheel again with discussions of whether Dr Sarno is "scientific" or not. Any decent scientist who knows anything about scientific methodolgy knows how scientifically sound Dr. Sarno's work is and if they disagree they are only lying to themselves and betryaing what they know to be true. They also may have interests in keeping Dr. Sarno's work hidden. Just read the history of science to know how this is true time and again. My dear wife has a PHD in Biochemistry and has published many peer reviewed papers in prestigious journals which require the highest rigour when it come to scientific methods. She has read Dr. Sarno's work and found it to be amazingly scientifically sound. Rememeber, doctors take courses from Biochemists and not the other way around:))) We (or at least I) have have been through that questioning process and now we are ready to do the proper mental work with a view to getting better.
My two cents worth only.......... |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 17:20:28
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I don't believe in everything Dr. Sarno says. I do believe that there is "A LOT" of pain that has psychological causes rather than physical.
In my case it seems as if pain was created in order to get me to pay attention to psychological issues, rather than to prevent me from looking at them. I'm actually glad that I used to have a lot of pain, because in the end I paid attention to psychological issues that I was ignoring. The more I looked at psychological issues and the more I realized that my pain didn't have a physical cause, the more my pain went away.
I don't believe that there is a large unconscious pool of rage that we can never look at. In my case there was some anger, but after going over the various causes throughout my life a number of times, I eventually reached a point where I no longer cared about them.
I have found that there are psycological issues other than rage that can lead to pain. |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 19:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert
In my case it seems as if pain was created in order to get me to pay attention to psychological issues, rather than to prevent me from looking at them.
But without Dr. Sarno's theory how would you know that?
quote:
I don't believe that there is a large unconscious pool of rage that we can never look at. In my case there was some anger...
This "rage" that Dr. Sarno speaks about has absolutely nothing to do with conscious anger. It is really just a metaphor.
Dr. Sarno is a medical doctor with many decades of experience, most of which were spent treating TMS patients. His theory is based on thousands of clinical cases. We're certainly entitled to different opinions, but it would be presumptuous to think that we know better, especially after we've been helped by his work.
I wouldn't be surprised if certain details about Dr. Sarno's theory were proved incorrect. For example, I believe that oxygen deprivation is too simplistic an explanation for how the brain induces symptoms. But the core of TMS is very much based on Freudian psychology, and this did not come out of thin air. |
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n/a
560 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2005 : 20:20:28
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You may not have believed in the pool of rage idea, but at least you recognized the source of your pain, and that was the beginning of your recovery. You no doubt would have not been aware of that source without reading Dr. Sarno's work. So in essence and fact Dr. Sarno was proven correct in your case.
I am glad you are pain free and I hope you remain so.
I am not pain free, but I stopped talking about it. |
Edited by - n/a on 06/29/2005 20:23:44 |
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 07:45:49
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[We don't need to create the wheel again with discussions of whether Dr Sarno is "scientific" or not.]
Never intended to recreate the wheel; I responded to the remark at the very beginning of this thread attacking his evidence as unsupported. I couldn't resist bashing such nonsense. As far as the helpfulness of the thread, since the thread was started out by a "non-Sarno", I saw this thread as helpful in sorting out the common ground that it seems we would need to share in order to "live" together here. |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 10:21:33
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I give Dr. Sarno credit for pointing out that it's psychological, not physical. I just don't agree that the psychology he speaks of is true for everybody. Perhaps some people unconsciously create pain so that they won't become aware of certain psychological issues. But my guess is that our minds want us to become aware of psychological issues that are causing us inner conflict and limiting us. It is interesting that people who don't want to deal with psychological issues instead accept a physical diagnosis and keep their pain. Regardless of the pain issue, who ends up better off? People who look at their psycological issues, or people who don't?
I've read that in the end Freud wished that he had focused on parapyschology. One of his key students Carl Jung did. I believe that if any person were given the opportunity to see what his or her unconscious mind is all about, he or she would be amazed. He or she might find out that there is more to his or her mind than a roundish lump of flesh.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave
quote:
Originally posted by Albert
In my case it seems as if pain was created in order to get me to pay attention to psychological issues, rather than to prevent me from looking at them.
But without Dr. Sarno's theory how would you know that?
quote:
I don't believe that there is a large unconscious pool of rage that we can never look at. In my case there was some anger...
This "rage" that Dr. Sarno speaks about has absolutely nothing to do with conscious anger. It is really just a metaphor.
Dr. Sarno is a medical doctor with many decades of experience, most of which were spent treating TMS patients. His theory is based on thousands of clinical cases. We're certainly entitled to different opinions, but it would be presumptuous to think that we know better, especially after we've been helped by his work.
I wouldn't be surprised if certain details about Dr. Sarno's theory were proved incorrect. For example, I believe that oxygen deprivation is too simplistic an explanation for how the brain induces symptoms. But the core of TMS is very much based on Freudian psychology, and this did not come out of thin air.
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johnnyg
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 15:42:19
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[But my guess is that our minds want us to become aware of psychological issues that are causing us inner conflict and limiting us.]
I agree. I would even go as far as to say that our minds are alerting us to spiritual issues as well. Dr. Brownstein uses this a a basis in his book "Healing Back Pain Naturally". |
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vikki
95 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2005 : 23:32:35
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| I speak only for myself here, but I've had just about every test the doctors could think of and they found no structural abnormality. I was shipped off to a pain management clinic, where they gave me lots of drugs that turned me into a zombie. They told me I'd just have to restrict my activities and learn to adapt. They said they frequently saw people like me -- who were in a lot of pain despite all normal test results. Sarno gives me hope that I can get rid of this pain, not just "manage" it. |
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Albert
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 10:37:37
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One thing that I believe is usefull, is to make a list of all of the issues that might have bothered you during life and try to get some resolution on them. I believe that most issues can become conscious enough so that you can deal with them. Try to find a way to see them within a larger perspective. Be willing to forgive yourself for anything you feel guilty about.
If you've already made some attempts to do so, make some more. Just about always it is possible to find some if not complete resolution. You just need to find the right (broader) perspective and sometimes you have to be willing to let go and trust in your ability to deal with things.
quote:
Originally posted by vikki
I speak only for myself here, but I've had just about every test the doctors could think of and they found no structural abnormality. I was shipped off to a pain management clinic, where they gave me lots of drugs that turned me into a zombie. They told me I'd just have to restrict my activities and learn to adapt. They said they frequently saw people like me -- who were in a lot of pain despite all normal test results. Sarno gives me hope that I can get rid of this pain, not just "manage" it.
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comments on my posts on Sarno
