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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
 Posted - 06/03/2004 : 11:10:44
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Recently there are many people I see here that are looking for more answers for their recovery, they have been saying “I have been using the Sarno, TMS approach, but say I am stuck on the psychotherapy part.”
Or “I don’t know what is causing these repressed emotions, should I see a therapist and what type of therapist should I use”?
Before the change of the board, there was a new guy that posted a message below.
I would like comment on it, an entertain some of its thoughts to the board, hopefully contributing to the healing of people on this board.
  
(Newguy)
*Which are more along the lines of the behavioral psychology that Sarno discourages in favor of Freudian *psychology. In fact, Sarno criticizes the approach of the country's many pain management centers, which, *he says, focus on the secondary gain theory of pain, and recommend a reward/punish behavior *modification approach.
I recently heard a special on Cognitive Behavior Therapy; this type of approach is gaining more acceptance today in areas of psychotherapy. It had much resistance when first introduced in the 50’s.
Because Dr Sarno is a general MD that has studied and has practiced with regards to physical pain, I do not think he specializes in psychology, but has only been exposed to its effects regarding TMS.
I know everyone has different backgrounds that is doing the TMS work. Yet the understanding of how it works and the concept to get recovery is similar. We all have the need to find out some answers to why are we experiencing the physical pain and what we can do to find better solutions and maintain a progressive recovery.
I have not read Fred Amir's book, but from what I have heard about it from this board it does seem like it strikes a chord and does seem similar to the CBT type approach.
From what I have learned CBT seems not to focus as much on the past and going back to explore any traumatic experiences and childhood traumas, it focuses on the here and now and offers positive solutions to a change of mindset and values. As I have said lately what TMS has taught me.
(Learning to look at things with a different perspective)
The NewGuy also mentions
*He stresses visualization and behavior modification, which are more along the lines of the behavioral *psychology that Sarno discourages in favor of Freudian psychology. In fact, Sarno criticizes the approach *of the country's many pain management centers, which, he says, focus on the secondary gain theory of *pain, and recommend a reward/punish behavior modification approach.
An observation in contrast to this would be. I have also witnessed a change in the exception in behavior modification therapies in the field of education. This new methodology of teaching was also rejected when it first was introduced to the educational system over twenty years ago and now it is widely excepted .I must say that I have seen first hand the changes of what positive reinforcement, and errorless teaching can bring about. One major thing that is different is there is no punishments, only compliance drills that lead up to learning and excepting transition. Some of these people were to the extreme as self-injurious as well as the ability to communicate. They were written of by society as not worth teaching and given drugs to modify their behavior, even institutionalized with no hope for recovery.
I believe this type of approach has credibility and is worth to look into.
Always Hope
Kenny V
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JohnD
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2004 : 12:41:50
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| cognitive behavorial therapy can be valuable when it is used in combination with other therapy that gets more to the root of the problem aka dealing with repressed emotions |
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Texasrunner
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2004 : 14:41:38
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| Dr. Marc Sopher, one of the first MDs to embrace Sarno's methods says: "Positive thinking is fine, but is not going to have an impact on TMS symptoms- it's acurate (reflecting on what you are feeling) thinking that you must do." |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2004 : 14:54:46
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Dear KennyV,
How was your vacation?
Regarding Sarno and his understanding of psychology. Although, he began as an MD, he saw the light. He's a genius who thinks outside of the box. He realized through his personal experiecnce with migraines and other injuries that things weren't adding up. He concluded that 80% of the ailments that patients, were in his waiting room for, were of psychogenic origin--TMS.
I would venture to say that Dr. Sarno, understands and practices more psychology than most any shrink around. His rehabilitation medicine background, enables him to do a better job of DX-ing and eliminating the remaining 20% of injuries that are "real" structural and treat them correctly with conventional medicine. A psychiatrist would probably not be as good as Sarno at separating the structual from the psychogenic, having become so specialized on mind-chemistry.
I haven't had much experience with shrinks, but whenever I bring up Sarno to them, they have not heard of him, are not the slightest bit interested in learning about TMS, and run the other way.
My personal opininon, of the psychology industry, is that, as the stereotype says, they are screwed up people trying to "fix" themselves or trying to latch onto the flourishing non-profit and government drug, criminal and juvenile delinquent alternative to incarceration program industry. Around Northern Cal, where I live, they are, a dime a dozen, and being pumped out by store-front colleges of psychology faster than massage therapists. I would rather spend my money on a massage, at least I would get some soothing 'til I got out of the parking lot and into CA traffic.
I'm sure that there are some very professinal and sincere individuals practicing psychology, but I think they are as rare as a good auto mechanic. |
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goodguy
26 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2004 : 15:54:49
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I changed my name from "newguy" to "goodguy". I'm not new anymore, but I am still trying to be perfect and good.
I have been attending Sarno's weekly small group meetings, which are really like group therapy sessions that he moderates. Although he says often that he is not a psychologist, he is probably one of the most knowledgeable doctors around in terms of the power of the unconscious mind and the impact it has on all sorts of illnesses.
However, Sarno said very clearly in a recent meeting that his treatment program is based on A) the knowledge of what is going on, and B) the acceptance that even though you can't feel it, you are in a blind rage. He isn't sure why, but this knowledge alone has "cured" many of his patients. Everyone wants to have a "Helen-like" experience, but she was the exception to the rule. By definiton, repressed rage is repressed and you can't access it.
It is the patients that aren't cured from knowledge alone (like myself) that he refers to therapy. He says that these patients are trying to do something very different. They are trying to feel their emotions. It isn't that he refers his patients to therapy with any kind of recommendation for treatment. I don't think there is such a thing as a TMS therapist. In fact, my therapist, who was recommended by Sarno, doesn't even let me talk about my pain. He says he can't help me with my pain, and I'm letting it get in the way of the therapy process.
So, IMO, Sarno has a recommended treatment program which he clearly defines in his books. For those patients (like most people who frequent this board), who aren't cured by this program, he recommends psychotherapy. At that point, he has to step out of the picture. He doesn't claim to know what has to happen in that therapy in order for patients to get pain relief. |
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Suz
559 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 08:58:21
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Hi everyone,
I wanted to respond to "good guy's" post which I found very helpful and poignant. I recently saw Dr.Sarno, attended his 2 hour lecture and have been reading his book and doing the work. My back pain has totally gone away. I can now do any exercise I want after 12 years of pain and 5 years of inactivity. It is quite miraculous. However, I think I might be experiencing TMS behaviour in other forms. I suffer in general from IBS (with chronic constipation - sorry for this detail!) and acid reflux which seem to have increased substantially since the back pain has gone. I have adjusted my diet to include sprouted bread and the constipation has reduced but now I find I am experiencing occasional searing headaches with nausea - really wierd. I have also been suffering from insomnia. I am pretty convinced that the unconcious is trying to find anything to detract my attention away from the emotions.
Good guy - how much work did you do from the books before you joined the group sessions? I have written out the lists and studied them for about 2 weeks and so I am wondering if I need to do that a little longer. Do you find the group sessions are helping? I am dreading going to therapy one on one due to the cost and I must admit I find the whole therapy thing extremely self involved and self centered - no offence to those who are doing it. I know what I have been through in my life - child of divorce, insecurity issues, my own divorce etc. I know I am a perfectionist as well - I just don't like the idea of wallowing in self pity. I have never had therapy and so I may just be very naive and unknowledgable about it.
Thank you so much everyone for this message board - so wonderful to meet others who understand
Suz |
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Dave
USA
1864 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 09:07:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Suz
I think I might be experiencing TMS behaviour in other forms.
Yes, definitely. I have acid reflux, and I really have not been able to conquer it despite the fact that I know it is TMS. For me, the sour stomach and heartburn is a very effective distration, I find it extremely uncomfortable. So I simply take medication (Prevacid) and every so often I try to go a few days without it, hopeful that one of those times it will be gone for good.
Consider it a good thing that you are experiencing alternate symptoms. Treat them exactly the same as you did the back pain. Don't assume that just because you get other symptoms, that you need therapy, or that you're not on the right track. |
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Susie
USA
319 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 09:45:43
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To Suz--I have had IBS off and on with various other symptoms. I believe if you have conquered your pain you are on the right track
with your other symptoms. You must just recognize them for what they are, treat them just like you did your pain, and they will also go away. Don't be dissapointed if you have reoccurances. It just takes time and work. I'm sure no expert at this and I am working alone with the books and video, but I see such great improvement. I think once you build confidence that you are doing the right thing, you will continue ti improve. |
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April
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 10:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by goodguy
He says that these patients are trying to do something very different. They are trying to feel their emotions. It isn't that he refers his patients to therapy with any kind of recommendation for treatment.
Goodguy,
Thanks for sharing the approach Sarno takes regarding therapy vs only knowledge and acceptance.
GG: <I don't think there is such a thing as a TMS therapist. In fact, my therapist, who was recommended by Sarno, doesn't even let me talk about my pain. He says he can't help me with my pain, and I'm letting it get in the way of the therapy process. >>
I disagree with your comment though that there is no such thing as a TMS therapist. The fact that your therapist won't let you focus on your physical pain during a session to me is one characteristic of a good "coach" / therapist to help you heal. IMO your therapist is helping you heal by steering your toward your emotional feelings rather than obsess about physical pain. I'm not sure a therapist unfamiliar with TMS would be this astute.
Your therapist recognizes that talking about the physical pain is a defense mechanism and successful distraction for your emotional pain that you are not likley talking about. I know how hard it is to ignore physical pain when you carry it 24/7, but this is part of the work of healing TMS.
April |
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tennis tom
USA
4749 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 10:07:39
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Dear Suz,
This might sound Pollyanna, but you can lessen your pain with your next thought. Dr. Sarno's TMS theory is ALL about your thoughts. Your post deals heavily on the body-physical-structural side of the TMS scale. That's what the TMS Gremlin wants. It turns your thought of the moment from the troubling emotion to a bodily site or function. I think what's happening to you is TMS. Back pain, IBS, insomnia, it's all classic TMS.
Our minds deal with a very limited space at any one time. Thoughts jumping around like a ping pong ball is chatter or noise. Obsessing on a body part or function settles the mind down and distracts it from dealing with the frightening emotion lurking around the corner. The body oriented thinking represses the emotions that we don't want to deal with at the moment. You won't have to deal with your past and the negative emotions that are perceived as the prologue for an equally dismal future. The pain serves as a ditraction to prevent us from facing our perceived future, prejudiced by the context of our past.
You have the choice to think about anything you want. You can think negative thoughts or positive thoughts--is the glass half empty or half full? Positive thoughts will distract you from the negative pain. It's a matter of outlook. Is the future going to be as negative as your past--divorced parents, your own divorce? Or, can you break out of a seemingly pre-ordained life path? TMS pain distracts you from thinking about and feeling these important life issues.
It may sound simplistic, but you can alter your future with your next thought. Is it a thought that leads you in a positive direction or a negative one--or is it about your pain, which takes you in no direction and leaves you stuck? |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 12:07:35
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quote:
goodguy
*It isn't that he refers his patients to therapy with any kind of recommendation for treatment. I don't think there is such a thing as a TMS therapist. In fact, my therapist, who was recommended by Sarno, doesn't even let me talk about my pain. He says he can't help me with my pain, and I'm letting it get in the way of the therapy process.
Excellent points and great advice to all.
New guy you seem like a good guy
I guess that is why you took on the new name. You make allot of good points in your comments.
How far along are you in your TMS progress and what is your current strategy on the psychotherapy approach?
One thing that I believe you are saying is everyone who comes to the point of understanding how the TMS process works and are still stuck in the why and what is next?
quote:
goodguy
*However, Sarno said very clearly in a recent meeting that his treatment program is based on A) the knowledge of what is going on, and B) the acceptance that even though you can't feel it, you are in a blind rage. He isn't sure why, but this knowledge alone has "cured"
It seems if this is the case, than we might need to still consider what is the WHY?
Underlying anger, rage, fears, insecurities, griefs, and locked emotions that are unexposed to our conscious.
A question one might ask. Do I need to find it? Or is that just something that is locked in an old unopened door of the past. When I arrived at this point during my journaling process I was doing al of this work alone and said ahaa!!, “This must be the key that will unlock the unopened door”.
One comment that I would like to say there is a point through the understanding and TMS work we are all left with. What do we do with what is left to work on? OUR EMOTIONS or our repressed Emotions? I decided to explore both. Through this I was very fortunate to discover many. At that point I journaled and revisited the past, and it was at that point that I DECIDED to make PEACE with it. If it was a circumstance I decided to let it go right there .If it was a relationship, then I made an attempt to voice my felling to the person. And if it was not possible to do so, I put it down on paper and filed it as LET GO in the journal of my mind.
I know everyone is going to be different in the way they go about dealing with their emotions. Some might not even know where to start, that is where a professional might help in some way to help unlock the door. Is this necessary, well I believe it can be if that is what is holding you hostage to your pain? However it is up to us to make that decision to either re visit our past or not to But I believe we have to get real with ourselves folks, get in touch with yourself and inner emotions.
quote:
From Susie
*Don't be disappointed if you have reoccurrence. It just takes time and work. I'm sure no expert at this and I am working alone with the books and video, but I see such great improvement. I think once you build confidence that you are doing the right thing, you will continue to improve.
Reading Sarno’s books get us in to the front door. “ The physical”
Once you’re in what about all the closets? “The inner emotions” Are we just going to remodel the house without overlooking what is inside, what has been damaged and left undone?
We can learn from the books and get help from all of the experts but ultimately it is up to us to understand and change our behavior and pattern of thinking. Susie you said some good stuff that I can relate to.
“I'm sure no expert at this and I am working alone with the books and video”
I have learned more from your approach. Battling with this for a long time and understanding more how this works each day.
No doctor knows more about my condition than I do. I grew up with a manic-depressive dad, who refused to take lithium for half of my life. (Lota crazy stories I can tell.) There was a point in which he was diagnosed by two experts having Parkinson’s Disease. But on his own he figured it out that his lithium level was not what the textbook says it has to be. So he decreased his blood lithium level and lost all his Parkinson’s symptoms, and has led a very productive life since, taking a very small amount of lithium that he has decided to take and he monitors his own blood level 2x’s a year.
On the other hand I have a mom who has been sick and messed up her entire life, too much to list.
All in which Dr Sarno would call a TMS equivalent, she has been to every Dr and has gotten every diagnosis you wish to call it. She is remarried with an alcoholic husband, an excuse for her habit and keeps two doctors fooled so they can dispense drugs to her legally.]
My Hope and moral to the story.
Last but not least my son was diagnosed with an incurable illness 2.5 years ago and the Doctors don’t know nothing about nothing, which, led me to understand more than the average pediatrician you can go to within 500 miles. I have spent my past 3 years implementing what I have learned, I am under the care of a doctor who believes what I do. We have only seen one nutritionist and one doctor 2 times each in the past 3.5 years. I have personally sent many tests to the labs, dealt directly with a pharmacy that compounds my prescriptions and supplements. Even compounding the drugs in its suspension liquid myself.
Now I say this because I do not believe too much anymore in the main stream the medical community. Once you go through this a couple of rounds and learn how to read a report or look at a lab result. You can say what Susie says. “I think once you build confidence that you are doing the right thing, you will continue to improve.”
The help of a doctor or therapist can be good but ultimately we need to decide to implement what method of approach would be right for us, so we can get better.
Now I can say
Thanks Dad
Does this make any sense to you ? |
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Susie
USA
319 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 12:39:16
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| To Kenny V--Just like you, I have lost much faith in the medical system. After failing so many times trying to diagnos what I now know are tms equivalents, I had become very disheartened. Then Dr. Sarno. His words just jumped off the pages at me. Now with an awareness of this syndrome, I hear people expressing different symptoms every day and taking so much medication and feeling so bad anyway. Have any of you tried to help people like this with an explaination of Dr. Sarno's work? They look at me like i've lost my mind. I have had to back off because I feel myself becoming evangelistic about Sarno. I think it's only natural to try and help someone but I think with what we are learning, all we can do is offer it and get out of the way. People will either put some validity in it or totally dismiss it. I would love to hear any of your experiences with trying to "spread the word." |
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Susie
USA
319 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2004 : 14:50:01
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| In my reference to "spread the word" I meant nothing with a religious conotation. I had a private e-mail refering to my religious reference and I was just being facetious. |
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kenny V
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2004 : 10:34:59
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*I believe this type of approach has credibility and is worth to look into
*An observation in contrast to this would be. I have also witnessed a change in the exception in behavior modification therapies in all the fields. This new methodology of teaching was also rejected when it first was first introduced to the educational system.
Who is to say that today, in the field of psychotherapy and counseling that we might see the same change take place? And that we might not benefit from abandoning the old school of thinking. This is what Dr Sarno teaches about forms of programming. And it has also effected all areas of the professional community.
One of the main reasons that I suggested this type of approach in psychotherapy and working on isolating TMS symptoms is; I have seen many types of programs that work in a structure of positive reinforcement that has greater success of recovery than any other types of programs. This type of approach not only is limited to an educational or therapy application, but all areas of life that deal with emotional responses.
Continuous POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT can be used in a family structure, raising children, on a baseball field, in a class room, in growing relationships, and in a company setting as well. Treating workers as team players using continual praise promotes a positive, productive and healthy atmosphere.
This methodology adapted in the TMS type of work would also bring a positive response to recovery.
If we can focus on eliminating the TMS triggers while isolating our programmed responses. We can do this by changing our attitudes in the OLD pattern of thinking from the past, towards a recovered future with a positive mindset.
Various quotes within this topic that would qualify this.
quote:
Tom
You have the choice to think about anything you want. You can think negative thoughts or positive thoughts--is the glass half empty or half full? Positive thoughts will distract you from the negative pain. It's a matter of outlook
*you break out of a seemingly pre-ordained life path? TMS pain distracts you from thinking about and feeling these important life issues.
*you break out of a seemingly pre-ordained life path? TMS pain distracts you from thinking about and feeling these important life issues.
Susie
Don't be dissapointed if you have reoccurances. It just takes time and work. I'm sure no expert at this and I am working alone with the books and video, but I see such great improvement. I think once you build confidence that you are doing the right thing, you will continue to improve.
Always Hope For Recovery
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Cognitive Behavior Therapy
