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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
 Posted - 06/09/2008 : 14:54:50
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Is it or isn't it REAL, that is?
My shoulder seemed to get hurt while I was boxing, then I couldn't sleep on it, then I couldn't use the arm, and now it's at a point where I am functionally a one-armed woman.
I have been trying to work through it, but it has gradually gotten worse and worse. A fear that comes up which I keep being told by people in the business of shoulders is that it gets worse from inflammation and I should let it de-inflame, and possibly might need cortisone to do that. Their story is that it's a kind of Catch 22 of inflamed tissue.
My personal trainer thinks I'm nuts not to have it "looked into." I went to his suggested first-line person, who does Applied Release Technique. And she thinks I have a tear that needs an MRI. I asked what happens if they say it is? - surgery! - and to say this means she isn't keeping me for endless sessions with her, so she really believes it.
I've searched on this site for people who have recovered from this stuff. Been doing the TMS work to best of my ability. It's been a few months and is worse.
I have pretty well recovered from a 30-year back condition with TMS work, and that has been better for quite a while (so this isn't an immediate new symptom).
I am howling in pain when I even try to get a sweater on. Have had to give up all upper body exercise (I work out at the gym a lot with a trainer).
So what do I do?
Anyone want to weigh in (compassionately of course)?
xxx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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Peg
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 16:13:31
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[quote:My shoulder seemed to get hurt while I was boxing]
Did you feel it while you were boxing? were you working out harder than usual?
Maybe you did injure yourself and trying to "work through it isn't allowing it to heal. I would lean toward having it checked out. Even if you are told there is a tear, doesn't Sarno's work mention rotator cuff tears healing with conservative treatment? Unless maybe it's a significant tear.
On the other hand, can you identify anything in the psychological realm that could be causing it? If you've had symptoms for a few months--that sounds suspiciously like tms. I can understand why you are questioning it though. Does it ever feel better? You know how weird tms acts.
I don't have any experience with shoulder pain/tms (one of the few equivalents I haven't had..ha ha) but it sounds pretty painful. I can relay a story from my friend which might be of some help. She had recovered quickly from back pain several years ago after borrowing my HBP book. I was amazed at her quick cure. She totally embraces the mindbody connection and has done well except for occasional mild symptoms due to stress. Last fall, she developed shoulder pain (out of the blue-not like yours being associated with boxing). Within a week, it became extremely painful, interrupted her sleep and she described it as "frozen" (I assume she meant immobile). she called her doc and got an appt to be seen/evaluated. She was caught in rush hour traffic and missed her appt. She began to wonder to herself, whether anything in her life might be causing her problem. When she got home, she took some Advil and laid down for a while. When she got up, it hit her!! She and her husband had been worried about their 16 year old son, because he was acting differently. She talked with her son and was informed that he had his first girlfriend (thus the change in behavior-nothing serious, just different). She was relieved to say the least. The next morning, her shoulder was a little sore, but much improved. It continued to improve, and she never had see the Dr. She called me with excitement to relay her story.
Another Sarno Success Story!
Hope I didn't make things more confusing.
Take care
Peg
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 16:30:42
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Wavy -- if it seems like it was an acute injury from unusual activity, yes you should get it looked at! You always have a choice after it's evaluated how to treat it.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 18:16:49
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Thanks to both of you. Very helpful. Loved the success story, Peg.
Armchair - well, it didn't exactly happen suddenly after one boxing session, but seemed to come on more gradually, so it's suspicious. The thing about having it checked out is that it's darned expensive and time-consuming.
Is there anything happening that could cause me to be stressed - YES! My mom and sister are coming to end of their lives. This has been going on for a while - I'm back and forth to UK from California often, and wondering when next exhausting pilgrimage needs to be. And there are complications I won't get into, regarding my sis being executor to mom's will, and not really liking me and stuff like that.
That is just one piece of a list I could write (and have written).
I want it to be TMS. Today when the practitioner was working on it and recommending I get testing, I was saying, no, it's emotional. But still, it has been disabling for quite some time now.
I'm so grateful to be able to run this by wise people like you.
xxx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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Peg
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 18:53:39
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[quote: Is there anything happening that could cause me to be stressed - YES! My mom and sister are coming to end of their lives. This has been going on for a while - I'm back and forth to UK from California often, and wondering when next exhausting pilgrimage needs to be. And there are complications I won't get into, regarding my sis being executor to mom's will, and not really liking me and stuff like that.]
That's pretty heavy. Sorry to hear about that.
[quote: A fear that comes up which I keep being told by people in the business of shoulders is that it gets worse from inflammation and I should let it de-inflame, and possibly might need cortisone to do that. Their story is that it's a kind of Catch 22 of inflamed tissue.
Remeber how FEAR perpetuates our TMS.
Best,
Peg
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2008 : 21:30:29
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Hm. It is hard to say then. I say: trust yourself. Meaning, don't go with what you want it to be, but really trust your instinct.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2008 : 07:26:22
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Thanks for your responses. I'm in one of those extreme pain modes - just took a vicodin, which I hate to do, because I woke up almost crying in burning pain, and tylenol hasn't been working.
I started thinking "I'm going to call the doc today." Went to my computer and found an email from someone here, which I am reproducing below (anonymously, as I didn't get the person's permission). Great timing. I'm still going to call the doc, but stay more neutral.
I find what they say below incredibly interesting. How does my shoulder/subconscious KNOW that shoulders are "in" right now? I mean, I know about thoughtforms and memes and all that, but when it comes to me and my pain I find it so hard to swallow...
quote:
Wavy-
well you and I are definitely in sync right now. I have developed almost the exact thing that you described over the past several months (triggered by snorkeling, of all things). I spoke with Sarno by phone, who said it's definitely TMS (I had seen him years ago for a back/neck issue when I lived on the East Coast). He said that if I have an MRI it will most definitely show some kind of a mild tear, which is common in most adults over the age of 30, but not a cause for pain.
Because I'm rather obsessive compulsive I also spoke to Dr. Schubiner and Dr. Sopher, who also concurred that it was most likely TMS. Sopher said that shoulder pain is especially in vogue right now, and that he sees an average of two new shoulder TMS cases per day! He also cautioned me against an MRI. Both Dr. Schubiner and Sopher stressed that I really need to get on the stick and work on increasing my range of motion, because unlike other TMS problems the shoulder can develop secondary physical symptoms, such as frozen shoulder (the primary problem being TMS). Dr. Schubiner agreed that physical therapy would be helpful for this, and Dr. Sopher kindly e-mailed me some shoulder exercises.
I have decided to start physical therapy. The only problem is that PTs are obviously very mechanically based, and you have to tune out anything other than regaining range of motion/function. In the meantime, I'm using a topical homeopathic anti-inflammatory cream called Topricin, which you can get at whole foods. It works pretty well. One thing that they have all said, is that eventually these shoulder issues resolve themselves with or without therapy, but one needs to work at maintaining/ increasing movement.
Take care and keep me posted
Wow! Sometimes it feels to me as though using the TMS approach is like walking UP the stairs into one of the Twin Towers, believing that Jesus will save me!
xxx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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Odrog
27 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2008 : 14:05:00
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| I've gone though (and overcome) a lot of different TMS symptoms, shoulder pain was one of them. I don't think its really treated any differently than any other TMS symptom. You need to keep doing what you normally do, keep exercising, ignore it, laugh about it, and deal head on with the issues in your life that are causing stress. Talk to those people in your life that you need to talk to (mom & sister), get everything out in the open. |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2008 : 18:18:06
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I've been trying to work through it and do same things as before at the gym etc. for several months and it has definitely gotten much worse and is too painful to move right now.
So tomorrow I'm going to an orthopedist. But I'm not giving it much thought. Continuing to practice thinking psychologically when the pain is trying to get a "rise" out of me.
Thanks for your support.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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Odrog
27 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 09:38:23
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Haven't you already been do doctors? You more docs you go to, the more likely it is they will tell you there is some physical cause when you know there isn't. You are wasting time and money, you already know what is wrong or you wouldn't be posting on this forum.
I say "embrace the pain". There is no such thing as too painful to move. Move and soak it in baby. Laugh and tell yourself "this is really silly, I'm not going to let you control my life - brain, I'm dealing with anxiety head on now so you can stop this nonsense". Works for me... I've had backpain so bad I felt like I could not move, it was hard to walk, carpel tunnel like symptoms to the point where it was almost impossible to use a computer (which I do for a living), shoulder pain where it seemed impossible to lift my arm, etc. I'm symptom free now and loving it. The best approach I've found was exactly what I described. I accepted excruciating back pain and didn't change my activities at all, I even carried my son around just to prove to my brain that I was serious and was not going to let these mind-body symptoms disrupt my life. I cannot say the pain always went away quickly. It can take days or weeks, but it will pass. The minute you stop doing things, shut yourself down mentally, or become obsessed with your health and/or seeing doctors, taking pills, etc is the minute you lose.
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 10:52:12
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As a contrary data point, I think it's a good idea for you to get checked out. You know the TMS stuff back and forward; you will see if what they tell you is consistent with TMS as a possibility or not.
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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LuvtoSew
USA
327 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2008 : 10:59:13
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Well I can't tell you what to do, but an MRI will maybe show a structural problem, the thing is will you do sx. for it if suggested. i would probabl try the PT route first to increase your
range of motion tho.
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 04:49:52
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Thanks.
The doc was conservative. She is a former Cirque de Soleil performer!
Before I let her examine me I told her about Sarno. She listened politely. Gave me medicated patches and some cream and prescribed some PT, said it would go away within a few months. She said there were adhesive capsulitis places that I kept knocking every time I moved in a certain way, which did in fact make it physically worse, and NOT to move in ways that keep exacerbating it, but that the Physical Therapy would help resolve it, along with the anti-inflammatory patches.
She said a cortisone shot might be necessary before I go on my 12-hour trip to England in 3 weeks, but to try PT etc. without it first. But the PT guys aren't available for a few weeks.
I'm up at 3:46 am in a lot of pain. I'm emotionally reacting to the pain. Odrog's advice that I should just ignore and work through the pain is making me feel a bit afraid, like I'm doing something wrong.
It's also pissing me off that I am somehow being a coward or something. I feel as though going to the doctor and trying to get rid of this pain is like eating the wrong foods when you're supposed to be on a diet.
(Nothing personal Odrog and thanks for your input)- I'm just reporting what's going on because I'm sure it is all related to the cause of my pain.
I think a certain perfectionism is the cause of my pain.
I SHOULD realize this is just TMS and do things that seem to hurt more because it's not real
I SHOULD be in England taking care of my mother
I SHOULD have written a best-selling book by now
I SHOULD be about 5 pounds thinner
I SHOULD be married
I SHOULD be able to get rid of this shoulder pain
I'm angry.
F**k |
Edited by - Wavy Soul on 06/20/2008 04:55:51 |
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armchairlinguist
USA
1397 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 08:23:04
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Aww Wavy. I hope you are able to feel your feelings and have them pass away into peace. (That's my TMS-awareness version of "Feel better soon.")
Hey, here's a thought. If you're gonna do physical treatment for it, you might check out the Trigger Point Therapy Workbook. I don't know if it applies in this case but you might try.
Check this out:
www . triggerpointbook . com
They mention adhesive capsulitis. That's the book (the purple pic in the upper right corner), and that's their explanation. The book is pretty cheap, so I think it's a good thing to have on the shelf along with Sarno.
BTW if trigger point treatment helps then it's probably TMS. :) That's the physical treatment I used to use. But the physical relief it gives can be huge and might be what you need to get the mental confidence. TrP massage is safer than cortisone shots because there are no permanent tissue changes.
(If doing TrP gives you more pain then don't do it!)
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It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
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Odrog
27 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 20:25:40
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Well like a lot of people on this forum, I know a bunch of people suffering from mind/body disorders, and I know how difficult they can be. It frustrates me when a friend is textbook TMS case but they refuse to even learn about it, and instead go to doctor after doctor (one particular friend is going though hell right now, she has seen all kinds of docs, had her gall bladder removed (which didn't help at all by the way), gotten on drugs, which not only did not help but added side effects which made things worse, etc.
But its even MORE frustrating when someone that knows all about TMS (mind/body disorders) and knows they have it, throwing all knowledge out the window and falling for the doctor game. Physical therapy is about as useless as a chiropractor - Sarno went though this realization over time, he used to send his patients to chiropractors but then realized it was doing more harm than good or was just plain useless. If you have TMS physical therapy can only help in the same sense that wearing a magnetic bracelet or tin foil hat is going to help (maybe a placebo benefit).
My philosophy isn't to just ignore the pain, but to quite literally laugh about it, laugh at it, tell family and friends about your ridiculous predicament, tell them about anything and everything bringing stress into your life, anxiety, fears, worries. Try to stop being a perfectionist, try to stop even thinking about your health, just eat right and exercise and laugh as much as possible (rent funny movies, listen to comedians, etc). Every time you find yourself thinking about your health, your pain, etc. you have to stop, laugh about it, tell your brain you are dealing with your issues directly now and that it does not need to try to distract you with pain, that won't work on me anymore. The pain used to be your brain's distraction method, now it is a wonderful and helpful reminder to you that you need to deal head on with any stress/issue/emotion/worry/fear that is in your life. Sometimes you may not even know what the issue is, think harder, it can be big or something that seems almost insignificant (but its not really).
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Curiosity18
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2008 : 23:17:58
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Hi all-
I just wanted to confess that I'm the one who sent the e-mail to Wavy Soul about the shoulder. I was also diagnosed with adhesive encapsulitis, which basically means the shoulder is becoming frozen. One thing I would like to clarify is that both Dr. Sopher and Dr. Schubiner said that while range of motion is important to regain, it is still very important to continue to think of it as TMS and to continue to do "the work." Interestingly enough, even my general practice doctor stated that he has been seeing an increased number of shoulder problems in his practice!
For me physical therapy was a hard decision, but I think I just allowed it to get tighter and tighter from non-movement because it hurt so darned bad just getting dressed.
Since starting physical therapy my range of motion has definitely been increasing, and I'm almost ready to continue things on my own. Perhaps PT was just a placebo for me, but it's hard to believe that that's all it was, since initially I felt so dead set against trying it (I had had such bad experiences with it years before I knew about TMS).
So the Way I see it, what originally started out as TMS shoulder tendinitis progressed on to adhesive capsulitis (because of my fear of moving it due to the pain, and not really addressing the psychological issues that were driving it). Apparently the shoulder joint tends to be more susceptible to this type of phenomenon because of its complex motions.
Could I have regained this movement on my own? I didn't seem to be able to, and I'm sure that Wavy Soul would attest to the fact that having the use of only one arm can really makes life difficult! It's really nice to be able to get dressed without screaming!
Peace to all-
Curiosity |
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Wavy Soul
USA
779 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2008 : 15:23:10
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sh*t
you mean my tin foil hat is just a placebo?
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
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mala
Hong Kong
774 Posts |
Posted - 08/27/2012 : 21:01:50
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Wavy, bringing up an old post & hope that you can tell me what happened shoulder wise. Have neck/ shoulder pain now.
Thx
Mala
Honestly, I sometimes really get fed up with my subconscious. It's like it's got a mind of its own.
Alexei Sayle
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art
1903 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2012 : 11:51:57
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Wavy,
Sometimes I get frustrated (hah!). Why? Because I think I know everything. Which while it may come as a surprise to you. I don't. :-)
With that little disclaimer in mind, I'm going to say of course (note the "of course") you should see a physician. First rule, rule the serious stuff out..If results come back negative or equivocal then you can go the TMS route. JUst not worth chancing permanent injury with a major tear
BY the way, the many posts I've put up these last months on my many bouts of bursitis and a knee swollen to the size of a softball for weeks on end along with much unexplained pain along with skin rashes which I never get. An alert PA in orthopod's office noticed old blood work showed some sort of inflammatory disease at work. Results in today...definitively Lyme. Antibodies off the chart. Thank God for that alert young lady as it's eminently treatable. I did get a tick bite last year along with rash, but physician at the time told me (for some inexplicable reason) not to worry about it. I suppose because the rash wasn't classic bullseye. My fault ultimately. I should have pressed for tests, |
Edited by - art on 08/28/2012 11:52:34 |
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Ace1
USA
1040 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2012 : 13:18:46
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Art,
Look up lyme disease in MBP, Dr. Sarno thinks that post lyme syndrome is TMS. If it was the IGG level that was high, all it means is that you were exposed at some point in your life. Good luck to you |
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drh7900
USA
194 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2012 : 13:44:16
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I have a friend who was recently diagnosed with Lyme, and she was told the same thing...that there's no way of knowing WHEN she was exposed (could have even been early childhood). After some further examination, she was recently diagnosed with fibromyalgia...and we all know what THAT is.
SteveO's book also lists in the appendix that Lyme symptoms can often be overcome through TMS healing.
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Dustin |
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Is it or isn't it?
