| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| mala |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 04:53:57
Austingary,
You've mentioned this book many times in your posts. Without going into too much detail, could you tell me a bit more about this book and how it's different from other exercise books.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ank |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 14:40:21
Thanks Dave and Gary for your responses. Dave, I agree that I should consider this as another TMS attack and volley ball as just another trigger for TMS. There are few things going on in my life that can definitely cause TMS. I want to do these exercises for strength and flexibility as Gary mentioned. I know this is going to be tough battle to focus on psychological versus physical , I will try to keep my focus on psychological while doing exercises. I was asking about posture as I have had some pain with simple Yoga exercises in past and thought a personal evaluation can avoid any injuries. But this e-cises seem to be simpler than Yoga. |
| 2scoops |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 14:08:54
"Ank, I think you are making way too big a deal out of those exercises in the Egoscue book. What you are talking about are about 6 yoga-based flexibility exercises; there is no reason why you have to be "evaluated" by anyone to do them.
On the question of "TMS or no TMS", even Dr. Sarno says he exercises regularly, so I don't see why doing flexibility exercises should be in conflict with anti-TMS work, if you're doing that. IMO, everybody should exercise: running or cycling or some other aerobic exercise, something for strength, something for flexibility."
I thought I would never say this, but Gary I actually agree with you.  |
| austingary |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 13:49:06
Ank, I think you are making way too big a deal out of those exercises in the Egoscue book. What you are talking about are about 6 yoga-based flexibility exercises; there is no reason why you have to be "evaluated" by anyone to do them.
On the question of "TMS or no TMS", even Dr. Sarno says he exercises regularly, so I don't see why doing flexibility exercises should be in conflict with anti-TMS work, if you're doing that. IMO, everybody should exercise: running or cycling or some other aerobic exercise, something for strength, something for flexibility. |
| Dave |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 13:35:52
quote:
Originally posted by ank
I have been a silent reader of this board. I was tremendously helped by Sarno's methods and this board (thank you!) to heal my lower back pain one year ago. I have been doing pretty good until last one month when I developed lot of stiffness in my upper back/shoulder area. It got worse by playing Volley ball couple of times this summer.
In my opinion you should strongly consider that this is another attack of TMS. You're already going down the wrong path by thinking that the volley ball made it worse. If it is TMS, and you start exercising and thinking physical, you are doing yourself a disservice. |
| ank |
Posted - 07/13/2004 : 13:08:13
I have been a silent reader of this board. I was tremendously helped by Sarno's methods and this board (thank you!) to heal my lower back pain one year ago. I have been doing pretty good until last one month when I developed lot of stiffness in my upper back/shoulder area. It got worse by playing Volley ball couple of times this summer. Based on this discussion, I picked up Egoscue's book from library and started reading it to create flexibility in my upper back. It seem to be helpful although I have read only a little so far. I want to do e-cises mentioned in the book but wanted to ask Austingary and others if it is necessary to get the posture evaluated or I can start the e-cises directly. How did you guys start? I live in NJ area and there is no clinic in this area.
Thanks in advance. |
| austingary |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 11:12:03
Fox, my personal view is that some people's body pain is 100% related to their emotional life and those are the people who might get 100% relief from just doing the "emotional work".
But I don't think that I am one of those persons nor do I think that everyone else who posts here is, either. I think my original pain came from an actual gym injury which I then exacerbated by over-stretching to a point where I actually, physically, hurt myself. Then, TMS came in as an overlay on all that and the more I fretted about not being able to run and workout, the worse that aspect of it got.
At that time and in the past, I also had pain and stiffness related, I think, to mostly unconscious habits of holding myself rigidly, mostly around the hips and pelvis.
Doing the Sarno work helped me with the TMS, stopping that damned stretching allowed the damage I had done to myself to heal and a couple years of work on the way I sit, stand, walk and run have greatly loosened up the way I carry myself, allowing my mid-body to work more the way nature built it to work. Say what you like, this approach has worked for me. I have recovered. |
| Fox |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 10:37:47
Gary -- I'm no fan of any type of organized religion. In fact, the damage done by various organized religions throughout history is one of my pet peeves. However, I do "believe" in the Sanro model, and not just bits and pieces of it, and that is because the system has helped me tremendously -- and I have followed the model with fidelity. Also, my "belief" is backed by the success stories I've read on this message board. I also get some sort of confidence from Sarno's research on the thousands of his own patients - although it does trouble me to some degree that this research is very old and has not been independently verified by other researchers.......I knew I was going to be in trouble with you as soon as I reread my post and saw that I had used the term "structural abnormality" because I knew that you would equate "structural" with hard structures in the body like bones and ligaments. Perhaps, "physical abnormality" would have been a more useful term because this is more generic and would definitely cover the muscles.....Ergoscue appears to be focusing on the physical. He appears to be trying to help folks correct a physical problem (tight or weak muscles) by implementing some sort of exercise/physical therapy....Sarno would say that you are getting the sensation of tight muscles (which I get often in my left thigh -- and it's seriously painful and distracting) because of the brain cutting off blood flow for distraction purposes. I get this tight muscle sensation in the thigh when I have performed some movement or done some activity that I have conditioned myself to fear...I get rid of the pain by talking to my brain, disputing the association between the activity and the pain, ignoring the pain, pushing myself to perform the dreaded activity, creating mental images of painful things that have happened to me (especially as a child,) exercising like running or walking or hitting the heavy bag and sometimes by visualizing and acting my anger out...It works for me. The pain is gone in a short amount of time. I don't get tied up with trying to correct some supposed physical abnormality (tight muscles or weak muscles) by doing some physical therapy type of exercise. In the past, when I have gone the physical therapy type of exercise route, my pain always got worse, my fear got worse, and my conditioning got stronger for the fears of the moment and new conditioning fears were added. My relief comes by remaining "faithful" to the Sarno model (at least I do nothing to contradict the model -- the expression of anger stuff may not be in the Sarno books) both in terms of my belief in the effectiveness of the total system and and in applying the anti-TMS work. |
| austingary |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 09:49:40
Fox: Egoscue focuses on structual abnormality.
This is not true. In fact, Sarno and Egoscue are in complete agreement that structural abnormalities, such as bones out of alignment, do not usually cause pain.
This idea about Egoscue, I think, comes out of the constant confusion on this board between "structural" and "physical".
Where Egoscue and Sarno differ is that Egoscue believes that the way we interact with the elements of modern civilization is pathological, while Sarno seems to believe that evolution has adapted us perfectly for current life.
It was TennisTom, I believe, who said here that Egoscue and Sarno know each other and have cordially debated the pros and cons of their positions.
But, that having been said, for those who apply Sarno's work more as a belief system than as a method of re-training the mind, you are probably right that Egoscue's books would be anathema to them, just as books written by skeptics are anathema to the adherants of a faith-based religion. |
| Fox |
Posted - 07/12/2004 : 09:31:06
From what I've been reading on this message board, the premise behind Sarno and Egoscue's ideas totally contradict each other. Sarno says to banish thoughts of structural abnormality such as muscle weakness or imbalance. Egoscue focuses on structual abnormality. If you are going to apply Egoscue's model, you might as well throw Sarno's model out of the window because the two are mutually incompatible......And don't fool yourself that you can do these exercises without having accompanying mental images that you are correcting some physical abnormality because that is the author's purpose for doing these exercises and your brain is not going to forget what it has read. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 07/10/2004 : 01:38:45
Susie, great posts, very encouraging! |
| Susie |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 21:23:48
mala,I just wanted to add something that really helps. You've heard it a bizillion times on this board but it's true. When the pain is bad and you are really frightened,start thinking psycological. If I had trouble concentrating on what was bothering me enough to cause these symptoms I would start writing about past things that made me angry and upset. Things I hadn't thought of in years. I will never know if they were really the triggers, but I don't think it matters. It just proves to your brain you know what is going on and that you are in charge. When your gremlin keeps trying to get you focused on the pain, just refuse to go there. I also put my writingsin the shredder. It seemed symbolically helpful. |
| Susie |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 20:45:43
Mala, I was very very lucky. I have been going to doctors for years with tms equivalents with no results. Obviously, because there was nothing wrong with me. When my back attack hit, I tried to stick it out alone. I was miserable for weeks but had started having panic attacks at the doctor, another equivalent, so I was really afraid to go. Did I have a tumor? ( Along with the back pain, I had numbness and weakness in my right arm ). I also had ibs with the back attack so I was afraid of colon cancer. It all sounds wild now, but I promise you I was terrified. My mind would race from one fear to another depending on the symptom. I then remembered a friend who had severe backpain for years. I saw her a week before my big attack and she told me she was fine. I called her for help because I knew she had an inversion table. She showed up with the table and Dr. Sarnos book. She just handed it to me and said " I got better after I read this." She was told she would always be a cripple and that surgery might help. She had a herniated disc,blah blah. I read the book that night and saw myself everywhere. I can tell you how long I wore the brace etc., but I promise you all that is not important. Everyone on this messageboard has had a different combination of symptoms. When I started to improve, the pain started moving around. I can tell you how long it took for me to get better, but the time is irrelevent. Everyone is different and I really believe keeping track of time is not helpful.( at the beginning I could tell you how many days ago I read the book.) When you start to improve, you will gain confidence and not worry about your diagnosis or elapsed time. I was lucky in the fact that I proceded without a diagnosis, so I didn't have to overcome a doctors gospel. My friend told me that was one of the most difficult steps. I can tell you now that most of the time I am pain free. Every once in a while I get a stick here or there, but it honestly is almost humerous. You"ll see. I really reccomend the video. Dr sarno is extremely credible in person and the patients testimony was exciting. This messageboard is wonderful but it was great to see a face with the symptoms. The people look very sane and sanity was one thing I thought I lost. Take a chance and jump in 100%. You have nothing to loose. I promise you will be fine.
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| mala |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 19:36:16
Susie,
Thank you so much for your post. It has really given me some encouragement. Could I ask you a few questions?
-What was your diagnosis?
-How long did you wear your belt for?
-How much better are you now.
Thanks.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| Susie |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 18:25:57
Mala, I wore a belt 24 hours a day. I took it off to bathe. I slept in it. I could sit for about 5 minutes. I conducted business on the couch. I had to go to an auction that I was in charge of so I had a couch brought to the coliseum and had to lie down every twenty minutes. I recovered after reading Sarno. I regressed more than once. I have read alot of people on this message board that say when the pain gets worse , you are getting close to healing. I think you are on the right track and I hope you can stay with it. It's terribly painful and very scarry that you are not doing the right thing. Hopefully your cure is just around the corner. It doesn't happen overnight for most of us. Just a layer at a time. Good luck to you. You are definately not alone! |
| mala |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 18:04:48
Dear Tom,
Thanks for the prompt reply and for telling me more about your experience at Egoscue's clinic. About my leaning towards the physical in my quest for a pain free life, well I'm at a point where I'm not sure which approach is the right one for me.
Doctors tell me that I have severe facet joint degenration and maybe SI joint problems too. They say "Mala, bad luck, you've just started falling apart earlier than other people and you will have to just manage the pain and make sure it does'nt get worse'. I can't sit for too long or I have pretty bad pain. For the last 2 years I was wearing a belt for support. 2 months ago, I gave it up a la Sarno . I went from wearing a belt for nearly 15 hours a day to giving it up completely. I started to go for daily walks and tried very hard to ignore the pain which for me is constant and severe. The only bit of relief is when I lie down. Anyway, the pain was ok for about 3 weeks and then it got very bad. Still i continue to walk everyday but now I'm beginning to feel the pain in my hips. Mind you I still haven't put my belt back on yet and I'm taking no meds whatsoever. In the meantime I have been seeeing a psychotherapist who after 6 sessions doen't seem to think that my emotions or rage could be causing so much pain. She is a pretty switched on person and I'd like to believe her.
I'm not getting the miraculous results that Sarno's patients are getting and I worry that if inndeed my problem is getting worse. I'm only 46 and the thought of living the rest of my life in such pain is unimaginable. So I guess I'll try anything and I'm hoping something will work for me.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 10:14:50
quote:
Originally posted by mala
Tennis tom,
you mentioned that you have been to see Egoscue. I've just received his book and I'd like to know more about your visit, what you think and whether you have had any success using his methods.
Thanks
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala
Dear Mala,
It's been several years since I was there so my memory is a bit fuzzy. That said, off the top of my head, Some people can heal with their heads, a la Sarno, and some can heal going through a prescribed PT course. I think I'm one of those that require both. All though, after my recent epiphany where my pain moved from my hip to my neck within hours, I am now more over to the TMS side of the "healing" fence. I am 56 and have by now sprained or strained most every part of my body and feel job #1 is DON'T GET INJURED! I've gained enough kinesthetic aweareness through the college of hard knocks that by now I'm getting better at injury prevention.
If I were to get a "real" structural injury, not TMS, I would certainly get PT and Pete Egoscue's facility is one of the best on the planet. I had read his books and was encouraged by his non- invasive views on healing. He believes that cartlege can re-generate if you let it. This makes sense to me, but until the recent popularization of glucoseamine-chrondroitin it was not believed that this could happen--hence the explosion in joint replacemnet surgeries, (mini-amputations as I call them). I think a lot of people loath their bodies so much and with the encouragemnt of docs, go for the new parts too soon. I feel OME parts,(Original Manufacturers Equipment), is best so I'll keep my right hip until I can only crawl.
When I went to Egoscue's I was not in an accute state. I was given a menu of exercises to do after photos were taken to asess my postural alignment. It's a very professinal operation. There were people from great distanece who came there. I thought I recongnized some pro athletes that were there for re-hab. It's a very healing positve atmosphere. He has a very youthful, athletic, enthusiastic staff of physical therapists. You are given a very nice kit and kiboodle of inflatable props to take home with you to do the exercises with. Honestly I was not in an accute enough state of disability so afterwards I did not do the exercises. If I had done them religiously perhaps I would be 100% recovered from that "injury"--but being lazy, stubborn, stupid and having more money than brains I did not follow through. I do do the static relation pose which I have mentioned often in past posts. That is the one thing that stuck in my mind. I call it the "putting your legs up" pose. It, to me, is a form of time-out, mediataion, relaxtion of the back muscsles. I remembered many of his Physical Therapists lying on the floor doing it between patients. You can think about TMS while relaxing the back muscles from the subltle pounding of the force of gravity.
It sounds like your leaning towards the physical side by asking the question. It's a long way from Hong Kong Mala. If you're in that area I would definitely try it out if your'r looking for a world class physical therapy--but it's n not Lourdes. You still have to do the physcical work. |
| mala |
Posted - 07/09/2004 : 02:33:50
Tennis tom,
you mentioned that you have been to see Egoscue. I've just received his book and I'd like to know more about your visit, what you think and whether you have had any success using his methods.
Thanks
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| austingary |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 15:02:58
Body Alignment: This is one area where Egoscue is in direct conflict with Dr. Sarno.
It is in conflict with Sarno but probably not in the way you are thinking, i.e., not in the way chiropractors are in conflict. Egoscue does not think that the bones are out of alignment; he thinks that bones just go where the muscles pull them.
According to his view, when you limit your range of movement, don't use certain muscles, assume odd positions and hold them, etc. that some muscles then unnaturally weaken while others strengthen and one of the results of that is a body "out of alignment".
A very common example is the person who walks around with his head stuck way out in front of him instead of balanced atop his spinal column. The muscles have developed in this way for so long that just putting it in alignment atop the spine for a moment hurts. Headaches and muscle pain are a common result, from neck, shoulder and upper back muscles having to constantly hold up the heavy head.
Sarno would probably dismiss all this, saying that your posture is of no importance. I would want to ask him how extreme the bad posture would have to get before he would concede that it could cause some problem.
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| Dave |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 11:08:49
quote:
The Egoscue method emphasise body alignment as the cause of injury. Computerized photos are taken and the posture is reviewd and then a menu of exercises are recommened for re-hab.
This is one area where Egoscue is in direct conflict with Dr. Sarno. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 07/07/2004 : 10:42:47
quote:
Originally posted by Lou
I have been reading this book for the last few days... I was surprised at the simplicity of the e-cises. Many of them are the same or similar to ones I have done in Yoga class.
His views definitely differ from Sarno's, but I agree with his thoughts of motion, and as we age our bodies do less motion. Keeping the body moving cannot be a bad thing.
As I am working with a sarno therapist in NY, and doing my emotional work, I think some of these e-cises would be helpful to counteract our increasingly sedentary culture.
Lou, Yes, Egoscue's exercises are similar to Yoga. I consider Yoga to be an excellent tradition for structuring one's life on if their own family's lineage has not given one the tools necessary to naviagate through this noisey crazy world. I feel those guys in India hanging around in caves stretching had a lot of time to reflect and figure out life. There's a lot more to Yoga than the physical poses which is what it is mostly streotyped by--pretzel pose. The purpose of the poses is to condition the body to be able to still the mind to be able to meditate. This I feel fits in very well with what Sarno says to do--.forget the physical, do the emotional work. Easier said than done, when one is in an accute stage of fear and anxiety faciing the prospect of mini-amputations of body parts.
I have visited Egoscue's clinic several times and spoken with him after reading his books. He has had lively disucussions with Sarno.
What I liked about Egoscue's rehab program is that he believes that the body can heal and that cartlege can regenerate. His writing on the hip joint definitely resonataed with me and gave me much hope for physcial recovery (if that is my problem in fact). His overall views on health matters make a lot of sense. I recall him writing that pain killers can lower the body's ability to use oxygen to heal itself. This ties in well with TMS theory which says that slight O2 deprivstion csn be the culprit for pain. The Egoscue method emphasise body alignment as the cause of injury. Computerized photos are taken and the posture is reviewd and then a menu of exercises are recommened for re-hab.
Yoga has a whole branch called pranayama that deals with the breath. There are Yoga books out there the size of the bible dealing with it. Breahting is a good thing. There are yoga classes that specialize in teaching the methods of pranayama breathing. I consider Yoga the basic building block of all movement. There is a chart I have with hundreds of positions--there are thousand of positions-pretty much one for every position the body can get itself into including "toothbrush" position I imagine. I don't use it as a religion but it can be if one needs it to be. Yoga was fortuante that the knowledge gained over thousands of years was not lost and was passed down down from guru to student mostly in an oral tradition. |
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