| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Joel D. |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 12:45:24
After reading and re-reading HBP and being disagnosed with TMS by Dr. Scott Brady in Orlando I have come to the conclusion that they believe that sciatic pain CANNOT be caused by a herniated disc. That sciatic pain can only be caused by TMS or something serious such as a tumor or some other type of serious condition such as a fracture. I am a little confused however and I think this confusion is causing the little bit of doubt I am having in the diagnosis. On page 19 of HBP Dr. Sarno say's in paragraph 3 about one of his patients, "However, he read my book on TMS, thought he was typical of the patients described, and came in to see me. The examination was conclusive for TMS. In fact, it showed that his symptons COULD NOT be due to the herniated disc, for he had weakness in two sets of muscles in his leg, something that the herniated disc COULD NOT have caused. Only involvement of the sciatic nerve, as is typical in TMS, could have produced this neurological picture." If I undrstand this correctly, in order for this patient to experience this type of pain, the sciatic nerve HAD to be involved and Dr. Sarno is saying that the herniated disc could not effect the sciatic nerve. However, on page 15 at the bottom of the page Dr. Sarno say's that herniated discs are RARELY the cuase of the pain. Which is it? Herniated discs RARELY cause the sciatic pain as on page 15 or herniated discs CANNOT cause the sciatic pain of the patient as discussed on page 19.
O.K. now my question. How does Dr. Sarno or Dr. Brady know by looking at MY MRI and reading MY radiology report whether the herniated disc is or is not causing the pain. I want so bad to accept the TMS diagnosis but this question just keeps coming to my mind. Please correct me if my interpretation of page 19 is wrong. I really do want to get a handle on this. Thanks guys. |
| 7 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Allan |
Posted - 04/09/2005 : 07:35:02
Joel.
Please let us know how you are doing from time to time.
Allan. |
| Joel D. |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 21:10:43
Thanks guys for the quick response. Believe it or not the pain is a lot less just after reading your replies. I think I will really be able to fight this now. Thanks so much. |
| Allan |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 20:30:27
Joel.
I can relate to your sciatica pain, because I had sciatica in both legs from my hips all the way down my legs. In addition, I had extensive loss of strength in both lower legs. I walked with a cane and then only for a few steps at a time. I had a handicapped decal for my car.
The diagnosis was spinal stenosis. The bone growth in my spine was impinging on the spinal cord and the sciatic nerve. I was 70 at the time so thought that there was a good chance that age was a factor. I had protruding discs as well. It was difficult to realize that some structural problem was not involved.
As so many others have pointed out in this forum, herniated discs did not cause pain in their cases. The chance in your case is highly unlikely.
There is a documented study (The Maureen Jensen study) of cases where people without any pain at all had MRI’s or x-rays that showed herniated discs or other abnormalities of the spine. Typically, someone would have an MRI of a kidney and, because the disc area was included in the MRI, the MRI would show a herniated disc. The patient was completely unaware of the condition of the disc and had no pain at all.
Go back and read Dave’s first posting. Assimilate the last paragraph. You must do the work and the work is set out on page 77 by Dr. Sarno, “Treatment Strategies.”
You must challenge the pain. In my case, I could not climb stairs without holding on to the banister. I gradually climbed one stair, then two, then three, etc. without holding on. At first, the pain was so severe I was ready to scream, but as I progressed, I realized that the pain had to be emotionally induced (TMS) and not structural.
If it had been structural, I never could have gone beyond the first stair. I felt exhilarated as the pain became less and less as I went further and further up the stairs over a period of several weeks. Eventually I climbed them all and finally two at a time with no pain at all.
Be of good cheer. Others have overcome TMS pain. You can also.
Allan.
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| res |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 16:14:35
I am a physical therapist (which has been the hardest in overcoming the "structural" mentality. Anyway, from my background, I know what Sarno is saying. The sciatic nerve is made up of nerve root from 2 different vertebral levels. To have a disc pressing on one level and causing pain in all of the sciatic nerve doesn't make sense. The expected pattern would be pain just in the part that the particular nerve root level innervates. If you look at a muscle and sensory distribution chart, you see that only certain areas are covered by specific nerves. So, the entire sciatic nerve should not be effected, just the part that relates to that nerve. I hope this helps and is not too confusing.
Renee |
| Dave |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 15:37:49
Another thing to understand about TMS is that it is clever and opportunistic. Your brain knows the spot of a (benign) disc herniation, and it knows that MRI's and herniated disc diagnoses are "in vogue". It will produce the exact symptoms you expect, and the exact symptoms that are likely to be diagnosed as a physical problem, because it wants you to believe the problem is physical. That is the way the distraction works. |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 15:31:49
Hi Joel....
That is the 'slam dunk' page.Every single person who has read the book and is a classic TMS patient has asked or had reservations about the very exact passage to which you refer.
It's ironic,because only a person with a TMS type personality would focus on the one exclusion,the one exception out of hundreds of paragraphs.
The first surgeon who ever looked at my MRI refused to cut me...he said "Marc,there is a herniation here,but it doesn't account for for the extreme amount of pain you're in"....he was of course "let go" by the facility where I ultimately had my failed discectomy.
He acually had more drastic stats than Dave proposes...he told me from his own research(he was a young doctor) he had found studies where up to 65+% of the pain free population has herniated discs on MRI's...now you see why the system spit him out...he was honest and he cared,and he admitted his own bewilderment at the results vs. diagnosis.
Sarno isn't arrogant enough to not allow for some room for exclusion...an eeenth of a percentage point where Major MAJOR disc problems might be causing a problem.
I got hung up on many a doubting day,just as you have...suffice it to say that it was only a minor bump in my recovery and I have NO pain to speak of.
You are right on time
peace
Baseball65 |
| Dave |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 14:15:00
The bottom line is, herniated discs as diagnosed in the vast majority of the population do not cause pain.
Discs are the shock absorbers of the spine. They are designed to move, to bulge, to be squeezed. If you take an MRI of 10 people who have no pain, it is likely that 5 of them will show a herniated disc.
In rare cases (e.g. severe trauma or some kind of congenital defect) disc herniation might be pathological, and might cause pain. However, the majority of diagnoses do not fall into this category. People have TMS pain, they go for an MRI, and the MRI shows a disc herniation, so it is blamed for the pain.
Many people try to prove the TMS theory to themselves 100% before taking the plunge. This is a mistake. It is merely necessary to accept that back pain can be psychogenic, and usually is, then do the work. The proof will come in the form of relief. |
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