| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| hope808 |
Posted - 04/02/2005 : 22:34:58
I am 27 years old, and I am a patient of Dr. Sarno's in NYC. I have followed Dr. Sarno's approach for over a year and have been seeing one of his psychotherapists for 9 months. I believe 100% that TMS is the cause of my pain, but I cannot seem to improve despite this belief.
I have had intense soreness in my legs and lower back for 3.5 years. The pain is there all of the time, although the severity tends to vary from time to time. I have been doing everything possible to shake the TMS pain for the last year, but I cannot seem to shake it. I am enormously frustrated that I am not getting better even though I believe in TMS.
Has anyone else failed to improve after such a long time but then ultimately gone on to recover? I am beginning to lose faith since my recovery is not progressing after all of this time. I am hoping that someone can offer me reassurance based upon personal experience.
Thanks in advance for any comments you can offer. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| kenny V |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 08:54:02
Just some observations
quote:
I have had intense soreness in my legs and lower back for 3.5 years. The pain is there all of the time, although the severity tends to vary from time to time. I have been doing everything possible to shake the TMS pain for the last year, but I cannot seem to shake it. I am enormously frustrated that I am not getting better even though I believe in TMS.
I don’t know your makeup, or what you have had as fair as pain, but as you applied the MBP have you seen progression, had any major breakthroughs in your condition?
Perhaps you can ask your self what did you attribute the progression to.
quote:
I have followed Dr. Sarno's approach for over a year and have been seeing one of his psychotherapists for 9 months
You may want to consider
What have you been doing during this time?
Have you accomplished anything as far as making peace with your self?
Have you discovered anything within your self that requires a change of mind, pattern, or reactions to your lifestyle?
Is this therapist helpful?
Do they just listen or are you challenged by their observations?
Do they give application to apply?
quote:
I am beginning to lose faith since my recovery is not progressing after all of this time. I am hoping that someone can offer me reassurance based upon personal experience.
This is not good foryour recovery
quote:
To answer your questions about my job, I recently decided to switch jobs for a variety of reasons.
I left the old job two and half months ago. I took two months off to just relax, and I have been in my new job for two weeks
I had hoped that the pain would ease once I got out of the old job, but so far I have not seen improvement. Nevertheless, I am hopeful that the pain will ease over time once things get more settled.
In the Job was it transition that you were hoping was going to change your physical condition?
If so this is a conditional approach rather than self-examination.
Have you found your source of inner rage or modified your reaction to it?
HTH
Kenny V
Always Hope For Recovery
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| Fredarm57 |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 08:33:32
"I keep going as long as I can until the pain becomes unbearable and I have to stop." I'm glad to hear you keep going. Keep trying, the worst thing you can do is stop moving. Try standing a little bit longer each day and walking a little bit longer. Try to keep telling yourself "it's only muscle tension". Notice if the pain moves around or changes. Pain is rarely this monolithic "thing", it tends to change and shift. Sometimes you need to just be with it and accept it for it to lose its power over you. I know this sounds kind of new-agey but it seems to work, at least for me and others of Dr. Siegel's patients. |
| hope808 |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 17:52:55
Fred and Fox, thanks again for the advice.
Fred says:
"Of course he focuses on emotional issues as well, but he doesn't stress digging into the distant past. The problem with some of us obsessive-tending TMS types (of which I am definitely one), is that we start to think if I just dig deep enough, find all that anger, journal enough, and read enough, the pain will go away. Even though you're focused on emotional issues, it's for the purpose of making the pain go away. When it doesn't, you get more stress, more muscle tension and more pain."
This paragraph describes my situation very well. I found that the link to the Siegel lecture was worthwhile and offered a slightly different twist on the core Sarno approach. Based on your advice, I am going to order Back Sense by Siegel and see if there are any useful aspects of it. Fred, it sounds like I have a similar worrying/obsessing TMS personality to the one you describe. Although I am unfortunately on the long-time-to-recovery spectrum, I hope that I can eventually get to the success that you have achieved.
As I mentioned, I am willing to try any physical activity -- the problem for me is that it hurts when I stand/walk despite the fact that I know this is a conditioned response. I keep going as long as I can until the pain becomes unbearable and I have to stop. |
| Fredarm57 |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 15:44:28
Glad to hear it! As I think I said in another post somewhere else, you have to find what works for you. There's some trial-and-error involved. Some people get better after one read of a Sarno book. Some people take two years of psychotherapy. Most people who accept the basic premise of TMS are somewhere in between those extremes. The nice thing is that there are so many more resources out there than there were 15 years ago. I remember reading "Mind Over Back Pain" in 1990 (Sarno's first book) and saying to myself, "OK, that makes some sense, now what?". Now there is a lot more "what" out there, including support boards like this one, other books, and so on. It does pose the danger of obsessive resource-hunting, but on balance, I think it's a good thing. If the Sarno approach doesn't work for a person, he or she can approach the same basic concept from a somewhat different angle and see if that works. |
| Fox |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 14:37:58
Specifically, Siegel's try-the-activity/notice-the-varying-intensity-of- the-pain-response thing did lead to my conquering two conditioned fears -- shooting basketball with my son and climbing up more than 10 or so steps at at time --- at this point I have no pain with either activity and I can give credit to Siegel for these particular positive outcomes. |
| Fox |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 14:25:51
I agree that Siegel's book can be very helpful for the TMSer regarding the mindfulness approach and, especially, regarding trying physical activities that generate pain and observing the varying levels of pain which result (which indicates that the problem cannot be structural and therefore must be conditioning).....If I had just read Seigel and had avoided the stretches and weights, I would have had a better experience, I suppose, because, at least for me, despite Seigel writing that you are not performing these exercises to correct a structural problem, it still resulted in me thinking physical again - which in, my case, led to increased leg, buttocks, and foot pain. |
| Fredarm57 |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 14:07:37
Yes, I do believe that Dr. Siegel's book is a worthwhile addition to the Sarno process, particularly for those who do not feel they are making good progress with the pure Sarno approach, or are afraid to resume physical activity. My one complaint with Sarno's books is that they can lead you to expect a quick "cure". When the pain doesn't resolve quickly, it's easy to be frustrated and angry, which doesn't help the recovery process. For some of us it takes a long time (about 2 years my first time through, less more recently).
Siegel's book gives a different twist to the approach to TMS. Rather than focus on getting rid of the pain, it teaches you to accept the pain and regard it as uncontrollable, like the weather, and instead to focus on regaining your life, beginning to do the things you enjoy again. He recommends using mindfulness techiniques to deal with the pain while you regain your activities. He says to start with something simple, like walking, doing it at the same time every day, regardless of the pain. After a while you start to realize that the pain really doesn't correlate with your activity level. As you regain confidence and the pain lessens, he recommends exercises, not to make the pain go away, but to build up confidence that your back is strong and can handle more activity. As your confidence builds, and you are not focused on the pain, the pain just gradually goes away.
Of course he focuses on emotional issues as well, but he doesn't stress digging into the distant past. The problem with some of us obsessive-tending TMS types (of which I am definitely one), is that we start to think if I just dig deep enough, find all that anger, journal enough, and read enough, the pain will go away. Even though you're focused on emotional issues, it's for the purpose of making the pain go away. When it doesn't, you get more stress, more muscle tension and more pain.
I'm not saying that Siegel's approach is better than Sarno's or that it's right for everyone. Essentially, they are two sides of the same coin. But for some people who have been trying Sarno's approach for several months without much success, or who are having trouble overcoming their fear of activity, Siegel's book ("Back Sense") may present a useful approach.
Fred |
| Fox |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 12:58:05
I've read and heard all that Sarno has on the market. I also tried Siegel (when I wasn't making much headway with Sarno). I believe that Siegel set me back a little with my sciatica because of his emphasis on lifting weights and stretching. I'm afraid that trying his system caused me to think physical once again -- which increased my leg pain....I did a lot better after I went straight Sarno and really put the required work into Sarno.....Personally, I recommend that you stick with Sarno. |
| hope808 |
Posted - 04/06/2005 : 20:36:53
Thanks for the responses.
To answer your questions about my job, I recently decided to switch jobs for a variety of reasons. My old job was prestigious and interesting, but it was extremely high stress -- and my boss was harsh and demanding. I left the old job two and half months ago. I took two months off to just relax, and I have been in my new job for two weeks. It is in the same field with greater responsibilities but less stress so far. I had hoped that the pain would ease once I got out of the old job, but so far I have not seen improvement. Nevertheless, I am hopeful that the pain will ease over time once things get more settled.
Thanks for the link to the Siegel lecture. He offers an interesting perspective. FRED, do you think that the book Back Sense is a worthwhile read that adds to Sarno, or is it largely the same message?
As for the facet injections, I believe that my initial improvement was due to Sarno rather than the injections. It's just when the pain gets really bad that I begin to have doubts and wonder whether the injections may have helped after all. I have to keep telling myself that the injections were not the real help.
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| marytabby |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 17:47:01
Fred,
Thanks for the link to that lecture. It was excellent. I got a lot out of it. I have the book on order too! |
| Fredarm57 |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 09:40:47
Hope808
I understood and accepted the concept and diagnosis right away, probably because I had spent six months trying everything else. I think it took a while to sink in, and it took me a while to deal with the emotional issues that were behind the pain. It didn't finally go away until I left a job situation that I hated (my two subsequent major episodes have been at least partly job-related). Back in the early 90's, there weren't many TMS resources available (and certainly no Internet, at least not that I was aware of). So it was just me, Dr. Sarno (with whom I couldn't do much follow-up becuae I live near Boston) and then Dr. Siegel. He was just starting to develop the concepts he describes in "Back Sense". For me, I only really started to recover when I stopped trying to make the pain go away and started working on the issues in my life. It's like Chinese handcuffs--the more you struggle, the tighter they get.
Fred |
| Bazz |
Posted - 04/05/2005 : 06:35:06
Hi hope808,
I am 27 years old and working in finance too! I am working at TMS-theory from june last year to get relief of my RSI symptomps. (hands and neck) I certainly have had a good improvement allready, however like yours my symptoms are still varying. In general I think that I need to do some other things to get completely rid of the pain.
As you have allready worked with TMS-theory for a year you will probably know quite clearly what the emotional triggers are. Do you experience that you can let the pain disappear when you use the Sarno-techniques at the moment when the pain get worse? (acknowledging, accepting etc.) If not it's possibly a good idea to read this website: www.emofree.com. This so called Emotional Freedom Techniques seem very usefull to "unload" specific emotions, by which the body reacts less stronger at the emotion. See also the books about EFT at amazon.com. EFT has also a quite simple selfhelp method.
Another point is the work. Do you like most aspects of your work? I am not really convinced that I like a job in finance. I am still considering if a new step is required. It is a difficult choise which requires to be honest to yourself. Myself, I don't like the routine part of the job like imput of data and montly closing etc. Also I feel often like Finance is considered as the less important department of companies, which is quite frustrating to me.
The part that I prefer is more like: setting up new systems, thinking about improvements, analysing figures etc. I don't know if your work is the problem, but I am interested to hear about it.
The last thing about the Theory of dr. Sarno. I am really, really happy I found out about the dr. Sarno's theory. The whole content has convinced me that my pain is not structural and has given me the essential insight in myself. That's for sure.
However to me the whole approach is somewhat too rational. I think it's a lot more about FEELING emotions, EXPRESS emotions and CHANGE your life somewhat. (for example a new job, study etc.)
Don't give up! You're only 27 and you have still a lifetime to go. The answers are deep inside you. THINK LOGICAL why you should need the pain and FEEL what the problems are.
Hope to hear from you!
Regards,
Barry
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| moose1 |
Posted - 04/04/2005 : 18:27:52
Hi there,
Just curious. You mentioned that you had facet joint injections, but also that you have a herniated disc. When I looked into those injections they told me it was strictly for arthritis...or what they supposed was arthritis. I ask because in my experience, treatments like cortizone injections in the back are essentially done as a "let's see if it works" measure, which is not the best way to approach pain, obviously. I actually went to a respected ortho doc who told me that facet joint injections were essentially bogus unless you have a rheumatoid condition in that location.
Another question. Do you like your job? I have a friend who had surgery on his spine to relieve disabling arm pain and it did absolutely nothing for him. It wasn't until he changed careers that his pain dissappeared completely. I also had intense arm/hand pain after I lost my job two years ago and had to work for my father while I found another one. I think there's a strong relationship between chronic pain and job satifaction.
Best,
Moose1
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| hope808 |
Posted - 04/04/2005 : 17:22:08
Thanks for the reply and encouragement.
Did you feel like you thoroughly understood the theory and adhered to the treatment plan yet it still took a long time, or did it take a long time because it was hard for you to accept the diagnosis?
My frustration is that I seem to be doing everything "right" -- but I can't seem to improve much. In any event, it's good to hear from someone who got better after a long time. I just have to keep telling myself that it's still possible to get better even after over a year of following the Sarno approach....Thanks again. |
| Fredarm57 |
Posted - 04/04/2005 : 08:34:43
It took me almost two years from the time I saw Dr. Sarno to becoming more or less pain-free. Some of us are just slow learners! I also saw a psychologist he recommended, here in Boston. He was Dr. Ron Siegel, who has since written the book "Back Sense". Dr. Siegel's approach is to try and not get too wrapped up in making the pain go away, but rather to focus on the emotional stuff and on regaining your life. He says that as long as you are focused on the pain, it will persist. Try reading his book and see if it makes sense to you. You can also hear a lecture by him at this web site: http://www.nicabm.com/olt/mindfulness_psychotherapy/demo/audio_lectures.htm
I have had a couple of recurrances since my initial recovery (some of us are just prone to TMS) and each time his approach has worked, in a few months on the first recurrance and in a few weeks on the second. Keep the faith! |
| hope808 |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 16:41:56
I try not to let my leg/back pain prevent me from doing anything. I know that I will not hurt myself in any way by doing physical activity. However, whenever I have to walk around or stand up for any extended period of time, the pain really flares up. It feels like an extremely intense, glowing soreness throughout my legs/back.
I should also add that I have had extensive medical tests from a wide variety of highly regarded doctors. No one has come up with an explanation for the pain. Therefore, I have to believe that it must be TMS. But over 1 year of religiously following Sarno's approach with little physical relief is wearing me down....However, I'm not sure what else I could try even if I wanted to at this point. I just want the Sarno approach to work already!!!
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 16:05:25
Thanks for your clarifications Hope. What activities does your back/leg pain prevent you from performing? |
| hope808 |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 15:44:39
Baseball, thank you for the response.
To give you some more background, I am a 27 year old guy who lives in NYC. I work in finance, and I have a steady girlfriend of over two years. I grew up in the midwest. I feel that I would generally be very happy with my life if it were not for my pain, which feels like a curse that is with me all the time.
My back pain began in late 2001 and evolved into a more generalized pain problem that spread to my legs after I came down with mononucleosis in 2003. I had a variety of other TMS equivalent symptoms following mono, but those resolved after a few months. Now I am left with pain in my legs, feet, and back. I do have a herniated disc, but at this point I do not believe that it could possibly be the cause of my pain.
As I mentioned, I have worked with one of Dr. Sarno's psychotherapists for about 9 months. I am willing to look at any possible issue as a potential source of unconscious emotions, and I have tried to tackle anything I can think of in therapy. Like anyone else, I have faced various issues over the course of my life, but nothing particularly dramatic like abuse or neglect, etc. My parents argued when I was young, which probably contributed to my high-strung personality. Nevertheless, I believe that the primary cause of my TMS is probably my personality: I tend to be a perfectionist and a worrier.
Alas, despite my efforts, I cannot seem to get rid of the excruciating leg/back pain. I did improve somewhat when I first read Dr. Sarno's books over a year ago, but I have not been able to make additional progress and lately feel like I have been moving in the wrong direction.
Unfortunately, I happened to get facet injections the day before I started to read Dr. Sarno's books. I have always attributed my initial improvement to Sarno rather than the injections, but lately I must admit some creeping doubt has entered in since the pain has been worse than usual.
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| Baseball65 |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 10:58:46
Hello.
welcome to the forum!
I think we could better answer that question if you told us a little(or a lot) more about yourself,your life and how long you've had TMS symptoms.
What was going on when they first showed up?
How was your childhood?
What is your Family/Marital status?
????? We'd love to be of assistance,but we would need to know that stuff to possibly have a clue.
One of my very best friends in Los Angeles read the book(after I pestered him for a year) had an immediate recovery from back pain and about 6 months later came down with TMJ and Migraine headaches!! He has had a few episodes where he has needed to go to the emergency room for demerol/morphine.These have now gone on for YEARS.
He is the Buffest/toughest S.O.B.I know,....and a perfectionist extraordinaire!
His Wife is a manipulative,pushy princess who pressures him constantly by spending money they don't have,fills up his schedule with social obligations,and though very beautiful and healthy,deprives him of sex....she uses it as a reward/punishmnet deal and usually he is being punished.
On top of that,his son has a rare brain condition that required sugery,is due for open heart surgery any time and his entire family has collective TMS...they are ALWAYS sick,so he is constantly nursing someone else back to health!
The reason I told you this story is to point out the fact that the answers are usually easily detected by those around you,but invisible to the sufferer.I recently asked about his TMJ(can't say what he really wants) and he admitted that he "ought to" investigate it as a TMS equivalent...but he CAN NOT!
The thought of confronting his 90 lb wife is sooooo scary to this 190 pound ex-soldier and athlete.....he is terrified of the possible confrontation and loss.And...imagine the feeling of helplessness he must experience with his ill son,an angel if ever there is one,whose entire life will require medical attention....the only reason he doesn't play music with me anymore is that he is so bogged down with work/social obligation/parental obligation that he can't even sneak out to play guitar 2 hours a week!!
...point is,sometimes the thoughts harbor so much fear that the sufferer can't even "go there"...but it's plain as day to an outside observer!
One night he got drunk with a client we were working for.He came home and "let it all out" and his wife was flabbergasted...he told her that either she was going to 'back off' or he was going to leave.
He had NO pain for the rest of that week...unfortunately,he doesn't drink all that much,and she regained her throne(and he his TMJ/Migraines) in about a week...How DARE he step out of his shackles??!!
Sorry for the book,but you get the picture...if you can tell us or your therapist or someone enough info,you'll find your blind spot...and the TMS will go away.
I admire your tenacity....I'm such a wimp I probably would have thrown in the towel by now...you must really be a coper!
peace
Baseball65 |
| hope808 |
Posted - 04/03/2005 : 10:22:49
Well, they have not been able to come up with any specific reasons. Dr. Sarno basically says that time to recovery follows a spectrum and that, unfortunately, I am on the long end of that spectrum. He says that if I am not better yet then it means there are some more unconscious feelings I still have to work through.
I understand this logic, but I must say that I am having difficulty keeping the faith. I have worked hard with the psychotherapist and feel that I have made progress -- but it has yet to help much with the pain. I just cannot think of any other major psychological issues that I have not identified yet. It is very frustrating.
I still believe in Dr. Sarno, but the treatment just does not seem to be working for me despite the fact that I cannot find any more plausible reason for this pain. |
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