| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| icelikeaninja |
Posted - 07/10/2013 : 11:02:32
Do you think it's a good idea to write everything down like a bullet point list on proof your pain is Tms then in times of doubt look at the list?
1. Pain moves around
2. Better at night
Etc etc. I read on a Tms wiki that some ppl do this. Has anyone here done it? |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| icelikeaninja |
Posted - 07/13/2013 : 09:49:34
Sheesh the things we have to go through to get better.
I am having my first Tms therapy session tomorrow. It has been since January that I stopped going mainly because of work,school,money come to find out less than a month later I would not have any of those things to worry about because I lost them all.
I never intended to stop therapy but losing all those things made me a wreck.
Monday at 2 is the big day, luckily I have a few years with this woman so it's not like aim starting fresh, she knows my personality type and history so it will be interesting to see what she says.
Maybe by us making evidence sheets is a sign we need to go deeper with someone.
Growing up I thought therapy was bs and it was for crazy people, you could have asked me ten years ago and I would have laughed especially at sarno.
Where I live on the upper west of manhattan you see a lot of new age hippies ultra liberal people who are so holistically healthy it's sick, my problem is I associate therapy and sarno approaches to them at the time that it made me run the other way to embrace science and how everything can be measured in a lab.
Funny how sarno has worked for me before and for years I could spot Tms only to finally have it hit you so hard again that you are doubting it after years of embracing it and preaching it.
I gave away all my sarno books to friends and strangers so it can help them, now I bought them all back.
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| dgreen97 |
Posted - 07/13/2013 : 08:40:28
i think you're definitely right on the book cures forest, i think these people may have less fear, are more faithful, or don't doubt as much as others and thats why by reading the book it eliminates that apprehension and the pain goes away. i for one have that doubting personality (fear) so its more difficult to overcome.
chalk this one up on the board, the past 2 days was a good example of something i should put on my evidence sheet. when i last went to the eye doctor he said that i had convergence insufficiency, which means i should have trouble seeing objects up close and my eyes don't see space accurately. if this were true, the past 2 days of work i should have had no pain but i did. i worked a total of 2 hours 40 minutes on the computer in 2 days time and it felt the same as if i had worked for 16 hours on the computer in 2 days. this isn't the first time this has happened either.
yesterday i physically exerted myself and felt like i was dying because im way out of shape. consequently i was breathing heavily and completely out of energy, but an interesting thing happened. my eye strain/tension/pain got much worse during this period. why would exercising make my eye pain worse? the only conclusion would be that the physical stress aggravated my body even more than it already was and elevated my symptoms because theres no way jumping on a trampoline would make my eyes hurt more.. just makes no sense.
a long while ago i was on vacatin and told my doctor "how come I was just on vacation for 3 days, never touched a computer, and my eyes hurt just as bad as if i had put in 8 hours of work each day." his response was "maybe your eyes don't see space accurately in all situations". so it was clear (intellectually) to me at that point that theres no way this could be convergence insufficiency. if im not doing near point tasks that supposedly are hard for my eyes and im looking into the distance, then my eyes shouldn't be hurting. this is why at the end of my therapy they really didn't know what to tell me and even said "we've never seen this happen before" (where things weren't getting better after 6 months of treatment.)
this is where i think the evidence sheet comes in. since we have these symptoms due to fear, we obsess about them because of that fear. no matter how many times you reassure yourself that you know whatever you were diagnosed with physically before isn't the problem, that fear in your mind is going to try to make you think that way regardless. so thats why i think reaffirming this every day with an evidence sheet is helpful. you can understand it intellectually but that doesn't mean your core being will accept it right away.. its going to take perseverence and daily practice for that to happen. as i've learned more and more about this, the subconscious mind is not rational so its not going to easily accept intellectually that your pain makes no sense. thats probably why this is so hard to get over. |
| plum |
Posted - 07/13/2013 : 01:41:57
Completely understand the problems with *later*. At the very least it seems to run counter to the arguement but essentially I think there is a healthy way of experiencing emotions in the moment, yet deferring any response, so you become more of a witness to them. It's a delicate balance. Feeling the heat, cooling into wisdom. Our actual emotions are fast, fluid, free and pass quickly when allowed to flow.
Remember that feeling and expressing are not the same thing. Some people dramatise and act out but they may be stuffing their genuine feelings deep down. It's interesting that you mention people who can't express happiness. I know someone like that and the tragedy of this is that he is probably one of the most passionate people I've ever met. It's all bubbling away under the surface but he shuts it down. Why? To annihilate his real self. As a young man, he was shamed for his wildfire and now he is explosive. And has tms.
Tennessee Williams said "Sometimes we kill our heart in order not to feel."
The more we feel, the freer we become. Bringing this full circle, to the point of this post, for me it means feeling the fear but not indulging in it and employing tools like the evidence sheet to get unstuck, to diffuse the intensity. The beauty of breaking the fear cycle is opening to the roll of fresh emotions and flowing with the excitement of healing rather than distrusting it.
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| icelikeaninja |
Posted - 07/12/2013 : 17:59:55
Plum,
I think the problem is I always said later and was in such a different mood that I couldn't react accordingly.
I looked up my therapists name because I was bored and on the t,s wiki my therapist mentions how people with Tms have such a great deal of repression that they can't even express happiness!
Can you imagine that? |
| plum |
Posted - 07/12/2013 : 11:55:46
icelikeaninja, I think Forest explained the halo effect well. To me, it feels like a borrowed energy and our task is find that place or state within us, for ourselves. This we can do.
I feel we tmsers have to get better at recognising and handling our emotional selves. The free flow and expression of emotions is beautiful yet we resist and hold them back. Let your composure slide, give your emotions their life. If you're in a situation where you really can't then I recommend the 'not now, later' approach. Acknowledge how you feel and promise you deal with it later, and then stay true to your word, be that journaling, crying, talking with a good friend, posting here...whatever, simply grant the feeling tender care. |
| icelikeaninja |
Posted - 07/12/2013 : 08:45:39
Halo Effect,
Everytime I walk out of my doctors office especially when I ask him whats wrong with me and he points to his brain. Pain dissapaites for a few always.
Now I am having issues with going to therapy. My brain is fighting me about going ot therapy while telling me to go back to more doctors and get more tests and forget therapy.
I have been having alot of crying moments that I can tell my body is quickly trying ot supress them because I am trying so hard to keep my composure. Slowly the rage and sadness leak out.
It is amazing how hard the mind will try. |
| forestfortrees |
Posted - 07/11/2013 : 21:49:07
Awesome post, dgreen. I was writing my post when you posted your post, so this is actually the first time I've had a chance to read yours. You can tell I'm a typical TMS perfectionist from how much effort I put into my posts.
quote:
Originally posted by dgreen97
i dont know about you guys but i have the most trouble with this when im in more pain than i think i should be. when im doing the right activities and things aren't getting better as fast as i think they should, then i start getting scared and fear it. if my pain is reduced for a day or so, then theres a subconscious fear there like when is the pain coming back.
I can totally relate to this. We are so conditioned to fear our symptoms that they can just get this amazing grip over us. I think that that is how the quick book cures work - people just lose their fear and everything happens so rapidly that the pain can never again have any credibility. After that their amygdala is no longer triggered and their pain doesn't have the power to distract them. But the rest of us have to go through a longer process that requires us to dig much deeper.
I think that being mindfully aware of one's fear can be really helpful for this. Here's some text from the post that I linked to above from Unknown Stuntman:
quote:
Hey Forest, I found it very helpful to keep working with Peter Levine's exercises to get the body - step by step - out of the freeze state and find appropriate flight or fight responses to "threats" or just to annoying/scary things/people. It feels like slowly waking up.<snip>
When I think I feel bad and I ask my body "Do I feel good?", I often find out, that I do feel good under these bad feelings or under the pain. I find this hard to put into words, but I feel like I slowly get my body back and also the joy it brings me by just living in it. All of this is fun, like sitting outside in a cafe and looking for felt senses how my body reacts to the birds, trees, children or people I see. Until now the pain hasn't told me what it likes to tell me, but I am more curious towards it and less angry towards it and feel less despair/paralized. Yesterday I just surrendered to the pain and weakness, because it was strong. I just hung out, read books, sat at a coffee shop. I didn't fight or dislike the pain and slowly the day got better and I felt better, I even started making jokes on the phone. I think the key is to read the tiny signs of my body until I can do what my body needs immediately before it has to shout at me with pain to make me finally listen.
The main advantage is, if I think too much or get anxious, I just look for a felt sense in my body, which either disappears or makes it much easier to deal with than the mental/emotional fear. Thinking "I'M AFRAID!!!" is hard to deal with. Thinking "Oh, there's this strange feeling in my stomach, what is it, fear? I don't care. It's just like butterflies and feels strange." is so much easier. I can do things with "butterflies", they may even disappear once I noticed them, but with this thought/interpretation (!) of FEAR, I tend to feel paralized.
The bottomline - with my few weeks of experience with doing this daily: It feels much better being in my body (noticing/obeserving what's going on there or how it reacts to nice things/bad things I look at) than in my mind all the time.
Can you hear the equanimity in his voice? It's quite striking... The pain and fear are there, but at the same time, they aren't there. I think that that is the first step to TMS healing. Dr. Sherman and Dr. Anderson, two of the psychologists that Dr. Sarno referred to most frequently, call this "affect tolerance" in their book, Pathways to Pain Relief. I.e. you know that you are afraid and you know that it hurts, but you don't let the pain and fear consume you. You just thank it for it's message, accept that it is there, and then allow yourself to move on. Of course, if it isn't ready to allow you to move on, you can allow yourself to feel it in your body a bit more and maybe just live with it for a little while.
Whatever works sounds good to me... |
| forestfortrees |
Posted - 07/11/2013 : 18:39:22
Heh, I can see what you mean by living in NYC. I don't live there, but it seems like a pretty intense city. It's no surprise that the person who discovered TMS worked there.
I'm glad that you liked the post, plum! I think that you bring light into the lives of everyone whom you interact with.
Ice, I think that the halo effect is just what happens when you listen to a really compelling speaker. For example, I spoke with someone on Tuesday who just had to be diagnosed by Dr. Sarno. Other doctors might have been able to rule out serious structural problems, but there was something very powerful about hearing it from Dr. Sarno. It's like he has a halo and it is much easier to accept the diagnosis when you hear from him.
Of course, like the placebo effect, a halo effect only lasts so long. Once you leave the person with the halo, reality can set in. That's where it's important to have a diagnosis that is based in truth. And I think that that is where the evidence sheet can come in. In the other forum, AnneW wrote, "I started keeping an evidence sheet a few weeks ago and I can already tell that is going to be an extremely useful tool for me. It is just so encouraging to see the evidence sheet grow. And when I start a downward spiral I can pull it out and go "now wait a minute, what about this?" Its important to remember to write things down on it because even though I look at it fairly frequently, its easy to forget all the details. And now they are there when I need them the most!" It can help with this.
But I don't think that it is in any way a panacea. I believe that TMS healing starts with "getting your head right." Somehow, people just seem to get to a point where either they lose their fear or they learn to mindfully live with their fear in a way that it doesn't have control. Biologically, I think that this simply means that their amygdala is less activated, so that the other elements of the stress response can cool down as well.
Ace's keys to healing seem to help a lot of people with this. It just happened to someone in the other forum named unknownstuntman. He used an approach called Focusing. It also recently happened to another guy named Stock Trader. He's been coming to the TMS chat room and the TMS call in podcast every week and it's been great to hear what he has to say about mindfulness.
I wish I knew what the secret ingredient was and what leads to such wonderful equanimity that some people seem to get. It always makes me happy when I see it, though. I believe it is key to TMS Healing. As Steve Ozanich is known to say, (or so I've heard) "Happiness first, and health will follow."
My Video Success Story
www.thankyoudrsarno.org
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| dgreen97 |
Posted - 07/11/2013 : 18:09:15
this is funny because this is the exact same thing ive been thinking about for the past 2 days. i was looking for my evidence sheet that i made up a while ago because i began having a spike in symptoms around 3 weeks ago now and its been rollercoaster ever since. forest i can relate to what you're saying on so many levels. what happened to me, just yesterday in fact, is my pain hasn't been going away even though i've been thinking psychologically, calming myself down by doing deep relaxation, exercising, etc. and immediately that doubt creeps in and you start fearing the "maybe it is physical" crap. its interesting when you stop doing physical treatments (i stopped like a year and a half ago now) that you forget all of what you went through to some extent until you refresh your memory.
so in my case it was this thought process: "well im relaxing every day, thinking psychological, exercising, not doing physical treatments, and im not getting better. im getting scared now and its really freaking me out, why am i experiencing an increase in symptoms when they should be getting better? maybe i should go back to the eye doctor. maybe i didn't do that treatment long ".
literally the list can go on and on if you let it because you can "what if" anything and doubt until you're blue in the face. i could have a TMS doctor tell me "this is 100% TMS, you have no physical problem whatsoever, stop worrying" and if things weren't getting better a couple weeks after that my mind would backtrack again into the physical.
so i think its really important to have that evidence sheet there to remind you that you did do everything physical to treat this, it didn't work, its not because you didn't do the treatments long enough, its because you're still afraid and fearing the pain (at least in my case). i can tell you i had a moderate anxiety attack yesterday morning from thinking about this and i just couldn't get it off my mind (OCD).
so like you were saying about your right knee. the pain started spiking up again and immediately your brain wants to go to the physical but reminding yourself it was TMS and it was nothing to fear reduced the fear response and the pain eliminated. and its so true that when im scared of the pain, i can't think rationally. i can tell myself over and over that i did all physical treatments, they didn't help and i intellectually know this pain is caused by psychological reasoning, but fear comes in to play again.
i dont know about you guys but i have the most trouble with this when im in more pain than i think i should be. when im doing the right activities and things aren't getting better as fast as i think they should, then i start getting scared and fear it. if my pain is reduced for a day or so, then theres a subconscious fear there like when is the pain coming back.
when you're in a rush to get to the subway and your knee starts hurting, i can completely relate to this conditioning. that fear creeps back into your mind even though you know logically it doesn't make sense at all. like you said, its the kiss of death from TMS. |
| icelikeaninja |
Posted - 07/11/2013 : 16:20:02
Plum, can you elaborate on halo and after effect? Like an example of what you challenged |
| plum |
Posted - 07/11/2013 : 07:11:48
Forest, thank you so much. On many levels, this is such a rich response and is exactly what I need to hear. In particular I treasure your explanation of how pain derails us, and spins us from psychological thinking to physical catastrophising.
I really believe I am on the last healing lap and am really only interested in what works. The evidence sheet does. Yesterday I woke in pain and felt quite demoralised, especially when the gremlin on my shoulder began its malicious whispers, but then remembered Alan Gordon's advice and how, in the first video he describes tms pain as a kinaesthetic hallucination. That description makes so much sense to me, and I used it as the opening statement on my evidence sheet.
Those words are a touchstone. As you did with your broomball experience, I am gathering my exceptions and building a powerful feeling base to challenge the fearful mind. It works. Yesterday I challenged the fears. The pain reduced, today it is a shadow of itself.
The evidence sheet is an invaluable tool and I add my fresh experience to the fruits of your toils to create something that endures. In my reply to icelikeaninja I referred to a halo effect. I now have a strengthening faith that these boons can extend beyond the afterglow.
Thanks again Forest. You are a gem. |
| icelikeaninja |
Posted - 07/10/2013 : 15:11:48
Thank you for replying. I live in NYC so I am always rushing and testing my body. My pains seem to make no sense and when I feel one pain for a few days I tend to forget about when it moves around. |
| forestfortrees |
Posted - 07/10/2013 : 14:28:12
Heya, icelikeaninja, thanks for bringing this up. I think that the real benefit of having an evidence sheet like that is not for when you are writing it, but rather for when you need it in an emergency. Dr. Sarno taught us that accepting the diagnosis is key to healing and that we need to think psychological rather than physical. This is no good because when we think physically, we tend to get scared, and the TMS has us in its grip. One of the benefits of thinking psychological is that it helps us overcome our fears.
When symptoms increase (which they do because TMS healing isn't linear) or if we are just having a bad day, this also can be very scary. The trouble with fear is that when we are afraid, it makes it hard for us to think rationally. From the perspective of brain science, what happens is that the amygdala, a fear center, shuts down our prefrontal cortex, where our more rational thought happens. However, you don't need to know all of the brain science to know that when we are afraid that our TMS may never go away or that our pain may be physical, we can panic a little bit - get all revved up - and then it can be hard to think clearly.
This is where the evidence sheet comes in. When you are having difficulties accepting the diagnosis and might be starting to think physical, you can always review the evidence sheet.
Here's one way that this helped me: for two years I had TMS symptoms in my right knee. I developed a conditioned response so that whenever I ran or even walked, I would have pain around my right kneecap. Frankly, it terrified me because the more I walked, the worse it got, and it never seemed to get better. Would I ever be able to walk freely again?
Well, when I first discovered, TMS, one of the things I did was I started walking more. Sure enough, the pain got worse. But I kept walking anyway, and, after a while, it stopped getting worse and even got better. Now I can walk wherever I want. I even joined a broomball team that one of my friends started. I ran around on an ice rink in tennis shoes like a maniac (unfortunately not like a ninja) and while I was very out of breath, my knee was fine. As before, it got worse at first, but then it died down completely once I overcame my fear.
Well, I live in a city, and periodically I have to run down a hill for a subway (usually, I'm late  ). When I do, my right knee begins to hurt again. Logically, I know that it is just conditioning, but the old fears of injuring myself pop up, and it's easy for me to start worrying or thinking about my body, which I think is the kiss of death for TMS. Instead, I use that broomball story like an evidence sheet. I remind myself that I am perfectly healthy, that my body is strong. When I played broomball, I ran much more than this, so I know that I have nothing to worry about. This allows me to get back to living my life and enjoying whatever I'm doing, which I think is the key to TMS healing. The symptoms don't scare me at all because I know it's TMS.
Having the evidence from the broomball team at my disposal helps with this. I won't say it's a massive effect, but it gives me a tool that I can use when I need it, which helps me stay positive. And once you get your mind right with TMS, your body will follow. It's just a matter of time (though it does take an awful long time for some people - to anyone reading this, don't worry if that's you. It's just the way TMS works.).
Hope this helps!
My Video Success Story
www.thankyoudrsarno.org
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| icelikeaninja |
Posted - 07/10/2013 : 12:28:24
Oh good to know Iam not the only person who finds temporary relief from these things. |
| plum |
Posted - 07/10/2013 : 12:24:00
Some kinda halo effect.
Know it well enough. I just said a little prayer for wisdom... |
| icelikeaninja |
Posted - 07/10/2013 : 11:57:38
Plum, yes that's what I read. He makes so much sense. I went to bed in horrible pain but slept great with nothing. I was reading it but the problem with these things is they help after I read them temporarily then it goes away :( |
| plum |
Posted - 07/10/2013 : 11:38:10
I'm doing it at the moment. I wrote an A5 page of statements this morning as a way of connecting with the feeling of the knowing. Alan Gordon at the wiki calls it The Evidence Sheet. Link for those who may want to gen up - http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/TMS_Recovery_Program |
| icelikeaninja |
Posted - 07/10/2013 : 11:04:17
Of course don't go crazy and ad to the list every minute but just take a day or two to compile it.
Usually I can feel all sensations of pain in a given block of three days. |
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