| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| pan |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 05:26:44
I thought I had posted this earlier but appears not.
Anybody who has read my recent posts will be aware that I'm in the same situation as many forum members in that in have trouble accepting that the cause of my pain isn't originating from a structural issue
My pain is mainly located over my SI joint and hips (mainly aching) and also a deep ache in my left buttock and sciatic type pain down my left leg. Something I have noticed in recent days and which I may have had for years or may be a recent development is that my left hip make a snapping sound if when moved in specific ways...in particular if my leg is moved in a circular motion.
I have had a cursory Internet look into this and some info seems to say it is fine if no pain (I do of course have pain)) but with pain etc this then likely indicates a structural problem...conversely some info also says the snapping is purely a result of muscle and ligament tension which obviously fits in with a TMS explanation. Just a tad confused and would be grateful if anybody with similar symptoms has also had to deal with this snapping sensation etc and if this also resolved itself with a successful TMS treatment.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
|
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| RageSootheRatio |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 10:29:07
pan, I found this very interesting:
quote:
I recall reading something somewhere years ago which went along the lines of that for most people their daily aim was to get out of bed in the morning and to get through the day as quickly as possible with the least possible challenge, change and agitation and to return to the safety of the same bed without exposing themselves to the possibility of suffering or rejection. Whilst on one level this seems perfectly logical when you look at what that entails it is a miserable and soulless existence.
I wonder if this is true for most people who are actually *quite stressed out*. And on the other side of the continuum, I do wonder if *healthy* persons have a different track in life .... that they actually SEEK OUT "novelty" / new experiences, opportunities for growth, in an ever-expanding quest for the more positive in life, with a sense of confident hopefulness about their days and their future ... an expectancy of their own resilience in the possibility of any "suffering or rejection" ... a belief in themselves and their world, that ultimately, no matter the "slings and arrows" along the way, a conviction that they will triumph ?
I do notice that things are different for me, depending on my state ... when I am stressed, I just want to GET through the day ... but when I am not-so-stressed, I get a glimpse of "the sky's the limit!"
~RSR |
| pan |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 09:38:44
quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
^^^^^^^
It is the constant drip of the water, not painful and not frightening, that eventually breaks the person being tortured that way.
I do also know what it is like to be caught in the maze you are talking about.
Sometimes, for some, I wonder if it does not take a total break with the status quo, a life jarring, location and situation change, to break the self-absorption?
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
That's an interesting thought.
I remember way back in the day on AZ writing a post with a similar theme about not so comfortable comfort zones.
The point in question is that many people (I include myself here) love to surround ourselves in the security blanket of our daily comfort zones, happy to stay in the same old routines and living a constant groundhog day being petrified of change and challenge. The ultimate irony and paradox of this is that we are aware it is sucking the marrow out of the bones of our lives and leaving us childlike, fearful and in a constant victim state but still we plod along refusing to follow our hearts and inner feelings.
I recall reading something somewhere years ago which went along the lines of that for most people their daily aim was to get out of bed in the morning and to get through the day as quickly as possible with the least possible challenge, change and agitation and to return to the safety of the same bed without exposing themselves to the possibility of suffering or rejection. Whilst on one level this seems perfectly logical when you look at what that entails it is a miserable and soulless existence. |
| Back2-It |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 09:23:47
^^^^^^^
It is the constant drip of the water, not painful and not frightening, that eventually breaks the person being tortured that way.
I do also know what it is like to be caught in the maze you are talking about.
Sometimes, for some, I wonder if it does not take a total break with the status quo, a life jarring, location and situation change, to break the self-absorption?
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| pan |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 08:31:54
quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
quote:
...regardless of causality it would be highly beneficial to me to accept how I am at this moment in time and move on...for some people it doesn't work like that though. It rings slightly of telling somebody with depression to pull themselves together.
I've been where you have been. Maybe worse, in that I was unable to stand, sit or walk and jog without extreme pain; yet, I had to function and smile and pretend I was okay. Nobody -- and I mean nobody, as I have no spouse and my GF could not handle any negative issues about anything and never, ever stayed with me when my panic and anxiety was at its worse-- cared if I got better or not, asked me how I was doing or otherwise. This angered me too. I have been where people HAVE told me that I need to pull it together, that there are others much worse off, etc.. Angered the hell out of me, so I do not mean to sound trite. What eventually helped me was somebody with some actual physical knowledge telling me that my problems were nothing special (a medical massage therapist) and the willingness to accept that the muscles would be stiff and sore and hurt because I was in a state of continued and heightened anxiety. I had to f-ing slog through it every day, with nobody giving two sh**ts. What choice did I have? Actually, I did have a choice, as I do own a gun, and there were times.... And, no pain pills worked. Nothing. I was not going to start down the opiate trail. Taking Ativan did relax me mind and somewhat body and give the rationale to start functioning as a human again, though, and taking rational decisions about my condition, but you cannot take that for any long term basis. So, again, I am NOT telling you to pull yourself out of it, far from it.
quote:
Back to your question, I do sometimes find myself challenges my symptoms through my running etc but also on an almost unconscious level I think that when I run etc I am in fear as I think the symptoms will develop to the point I can no longer do what I love..This also threatens my identity I feel..all powerful fear factors.
Fear of the condition. I remember actually crying one afternoon when I heard my neighbor cutting his lawn. I was so twisted in pain and so convinced that my symptoms would worsen with any action (because that is what doctor after doctor told me) that the thought of never again doing something some mundane as cutting grass, sent me into despair.
I jogged/ran and it was it fits and starts and when the pain would envelope the side of my body I had to keep telling myself that my arms were still pumping and legs still moving and --and-- I was armed with the knowledge that it was caused by certain neck and back muscles with no idiopathic cause which sent distress to distant points of my body. I faced each time I ran the idea that it was going to hurt, but I knew why. This kept me going, which leads me to the following:
I think stress and anxiety programs, run by those with the best of intentions, have to present to the patient the underlying physiological causes of their continued pain; otherwise, they are treating only part of the problem, and not very successfully, I might add. I went to TMS doc. He treated the mental aspects very well, but after declaring me "healthy" could not tell me why I hurt where I hurt. In fact, he said: "I don't know why you hurt there". I do not blame him, but even a basic knowledge of muscular anatomy can provide the answer as to why. I am not sure if he wanted to shy away from the use of "referred" pain from twisted and tense muscles in my back, because that would focus me on the physical, or he was afraid to give a dx because he was a family practitioner and maybe not familiar enough with various causes and effects, such as a Dr. Sarno --or even a medical massage therapist-- was and can be.
I above all am not telling you to pull yourself together and get on with it, believe me. Apologies if you thought so.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
My comment about pulling yourself together was in reply to something else that was posted in the thread. I did take some umbridge with the way I interpreted that persons comments but the issue resides within myself not really the comment made.
Your situation sounds like it was a bloody nightmare and mine does indeed pale into comparison when I compare pain levels etc. At times I do actually ask myself if it is fair to say that I am in pain as my problem seems to be more of constant deep aches and tightness and stiffness...of course, this then leads me to question if I'm actually getting enough pain for it be TMS...madness I know.
Yep, I understand what you say about the fear of the condition as I feel this is exactly my problem. If somebody was to say to me that my symptoms would stay as they currently are I would be pissd but ultimately I would take that as I then feel the fear of me making things worse and deterioting would subside. I've had this issue for well over 2 years and the does appear to be a steady progression which to my intellectual and logical mind indicates a structural issue getting worse. During this period I have known everything there is to know about TMS and remained active etc but things have not improved. Having said that, have I lost the fear? Have I stopped the fixation on the symptom? Have I thought psychological at all times? Have I stopped the self absorption? Have I stopped the constant living in the mind and constant future projection? The answer to all those is no so should I really be that surprised that things are not getting any better? |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 08:17:48
I did not mean to imply that changing one's thinking is easy; to the contrary, it can be extremely hard, especially if one has deep psychological issues and/or major present stressors contributing to the logjam and if, as you say, one is very used to a completely different way of problem solving.
I didn't express my original thought very constructively and for that I am truly sorry. I have found, though, in my own experience, that it can be helpful to remember to be grateful and not to always see the half empty glass. If that sounds preachy well perhaps it is. |
| Back2-It |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 08:12:59
quote:
...regardless of causality it would be highly beneficial to me to accept how I am at this moment in time and move on...for some people it doesn't work like that though. It rings slightly of telling somebody with depression to pull themselves together.
I've been where you have been. Maybe worse, in that I was unable to stand, sit or walk and jog without extreme pain; yet, I had to function and smile and pretend I was okay. Nobody -- and I mean nobody, as I have no spouse and my GF could not handle any negative issues about anything and never, ever stayed with me when my panic and anxiety was at its worse-- cared if I got better or not, asked me how I was doing or otherwise. This angered me too. I have been where people HAVE told me that I need to pull it together, that there are others much worse off, etc.. Angered the hell out of me, so I do not mean to sound trite. What eventually helped me was somebody with some actual physical knowledge telling me that my problems were nothing special (a medical massage therapist) and the willingness to accept that the muscles would be stiff and sore and hurt because I was in a state of continued and heightened anxiety. I had to f-ing slog through it every day, with nobody giving two sh**ts. What choice did I have? Actually, I did have a choice, as I do own a gun, and there were times.... And, no pain pills worked. Nothing. I was not going to start down the opiate trail. Taking Ativan did relax me mind and somewhat body and give the rationale to start functioning as a human again, though, and taking rational decisions about my condition, but you cannot take that for any long term basis. So, again, I am NOT telling you to pull yourself out of it, far from it.
quote:
Back to your question, I do sometimes find myself challenges my symptoms through my running etc but also on an almost unconscious level I think that when I run etc I am in fear as I think the symptoms will develop to the point I can no longer do what I love..This also threatens my identity I feel..all powerful fear factors.
Fear of the condition. I remember actually crying one afternoon when I heard my neighbor cutting his lawn. I was so twisted in pain and so convinced that my symptoms would worsen with any action (because that is what doctor after doctor told me) that the thought of never again doing something some mundane as cutting grass, sent me into despair.
I jogged/ran and it was it fits and starts and when the pain would envelope the side of my body I had to keep telling myself that my arms were still pumping and legs still moving and --and-- I was armed with the knowledge that it was caused by certain neck and back muscles with no idiopathic cause which sent distress to distant points of my body. I faced each time I ran the idea that it was going to hurt, but I knew why. This kept me going, which leads me to the following:
I think stress and anxiety programs, run by those with the best of intentions, have to present to the patient the underlying physiological causes of their continued pain; otherwise, they are treating only part of the problem, and not very successfully, I might add. I went to TMS doc. He treated the mental aspects very well, but after declaring me "healthy" could not tell me why I hurt where I hurt. In fact, he said: "I don't know why you hurt there". I do not blame him, but even a basic knowledge of muscular anatomy can provide the answer as to why. I am not sure if he wanted to shy away from the use of "referred" pain from twisted and tense muscles in my back, because that would focus me on the physical, or he was afraid to give a dx because he was a family practitioner and maybe not familiar enough with various causes and effects, such as a Dr. Sarno --or even a medical massage therapist-- was and can be.
I above all am not telling you to pull yourself together and get on with it, believe me. Apologies if you thought so.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| pan |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 08:02:54
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
quote:
Originally posted by pan
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
If you are that healthy, and are able to be that active, you should be deeply grateful to whoever or whatever you believe in, and that should be the end of it.
It doesn't quite work like that though does it?
Not if you dont believe in your own capacity for change, no. But there are no,passive solutions or even improvements. Any positive change can only come from a true effort to think about things in a different way. Your intellectualizing and overanalyzing and defensiveness do not seem to be helping you I irked you but i was trying to put your situation in a different light. If your response is to say well i am actually worse off than people who are in terrible pain and cant function as well that doesnt seem productiive either. Apologies for irking younand best wishes.
Please don't apologise for irking me for one moment...we all need a good irking in order to be prompted to think on things differently, I'm not really sure the Internet is the best place to play if our egos are that fragile either.
Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to say my situation is either worse or better then anybody else's but purely it is the individuals perception to their situation that defines the level of distress or discomfort....of course I'm well aware that this perception is something that can be worked on and changed but just as the level of discomfort is relative and subjective so is the capacity to both recognise the change required and also the ability to implement...I'm well aware that it is he latter bit of this that sees me currently falling flat on my arse!
Yep, I totally agree that the intellectualising and constant analysing are not serving me well but of course if these have been your go to problem solving skills for 45 years trying to learn to ditch them can be somewhat daunting...I do however recognise that this is precisely what needs to be done.
Thanks again for your reply. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 07:45:13
quote:
Originally posted by pan
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
If you are that healthy, and are able to be that active, you should be deeply grateful to whoever or whatever you believe in, and that should be the end of it.
It doesn't quite work like that though does it?
Not if you dont believe in your own capacity for change, no. But there are no passive solutions or even improvements. Any positive change can only come from a true effort to think about things in a different way. Your intellectualizing and overanalyzing and defensiveness do not seem to be helping you I irked you but i was trying to put your situation in a different light. If your response is to say well i am actually worse off than people who are in terrible pain and cant function as well that doesnt seem productiive either. Apologies for irking you and best wishes. |
| pan |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 00:45:07
quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
quote:
Cheers dude...oh yes, I know all about the body and symptom fixation only to well...it is a totl preoccupation which easily borders on obsession.
To answer the question, yep I can walk perfectly fine...heck I ran a 10k last Sunday, ran about 15 miles throughout last week and did a 5 mile hike this morning...I will be climbing a mountain in about 9 hours time as well.
The TMS guy I see also places a lot of store on the fact that I don't have mobility issues or loss of function as a good indication that its not structural and rather a nervous system issue..my issue seems to be pain and stiffness alone.
As you can see I certainly challenge my symptoms with exercise and the like but I totally and utterly do live in fear of them and more specifically that I'm doing more and more damage to my back/hip/leg...I know that to somebody who has accepted a non structural diagnosis this probably seems nonsense but of course I'm not in that place yet and as a result I agree I'm just feeding the fear cycle.
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
Are you challenging and not accepting, testing and not practicing? There is a subtle difference. Maybe it's time to consider that the "TMS guy" is telling you what you already know and just adding to obsession? What is a "TMS guy" anyway? I do not mean to negate the achievements of Dr. Sarno by any means, because he focused on the anxiety producer of the century,the "bad back", and without him I would be bedridden, but are not we really dealing with anxiety and fear of sensitized body parts and the fear that that produces?
Seems you can stand (and run) alone on your knowledge.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
The 'TMS guy' is the chap I'm seeing who is treating me....he is a part of Georgie Oldfields stress illness programme. Like I have mentioned previously he has diagnosed me with stress illness/TMS.
As the poster above you so succinctly indicated yes, I should be grateful that I can be active but the activity is done with pain and is therefore not pleasurable. The thing with chronic pain is that often people in terrible pain and limited mobility have a far better mental perspective and quality of life than somebody who has milder pain and more function....this obviously indicates to me that regardless of causality it would be highly beneficial to me to accept how I am at this moment in time and move on...for some people it doesn't work like that though. It rings slightly of telling somebody with depression to pull themselves together.
Back to your question, I do sometimes find myself challenges my symptoms through my running etc but also on an almost unconscious level I think that when I run etc I am in fear as I think the symptoms will develop to the point I can no longer do what I love..This also threatens my identity I feel..all powerful fear factors.
Yep, I'm not totally committed to the Freudian aspects of Sarno's theory and agree with you that and also Monte"s belief that it is probably how I am being in the moment that is sensitising my nervous system. I'm also starting to think the health anxiety that I had thought I had conquered is creeping into play with this now which may be why the previous comment about being thankful irked me...having said that it may have irked me cause I know it's true and it's my cowardice that's stopping me doing it. |
| pan |
Posted - 06/30/2013 : 00:27:55
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
If you are that healthy, and are able to be that active, you should be deeply grateful to whoever or whatever you believe in, and that should be the end of it.
It doesn't quite work like that though does it? |
| Back2-It |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 22:39:00
quote:
Cheers dude...oh yes, I know all about the body and symptom fixation only to well...it is a totl preoccupation which easily borders on obsession.
To answer the question, yep I can walk perfectly fine...heck I ran a 10k last Sunday, ran about 15 miles throughout last week and did a 5 mile hike this morning...I will be climbing a mountain in about 9 hours time as well.
The TMS guy I see also places a lot of store on the fact that I don't have mobility issues or loss of function as a good indication that its not structural and rather a nervous system issue..my issue seems to be pain and stiffness alone.
As you can see I certainly challenge my symptoms with exercise and the like but I totally and utterly do live in fear of them and more specifically that I'm doing more and more damage to my back/hip/leg...I know that to somebody who has accepted a non structural diagnosis this probably seems nonsense but of course I'm not in that place yet and as a result I agree I'm just feeding the fear cycle.
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
Are you challenging and not accepting, testing and not practicing? There is a subtle difference. Maybe it's time to consider that the "TMS guy" is telling you what you already know and just adding to obsession? What is a "TMS guy" anyway? I do not mean to negate the achievements of Dr. Sarno by any means, because he focused on the anxiety producer of the century,the "bad back", and without him I would be bedridden, but are not we really dealing with anxiety and fear of sensitized body parts and the fear that that produces?
Seems you can stand (and run) alone on your knowledge.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 17:33:59
If you are that healthy, and are able to be that active, you should be deeply grateful to whoever or whatever you believe in, and that should be the end of it. |
| pan |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 17:09:02
quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
Pan,
Can you despite the pain and the snap, crackle, pop, walk on the hip, get from point A to point B? If so, the hip is a perfectly good with a perfectly good leg attached to it. Muscle tension compresses nerves and pulls tendons, and that is probably why there is no direct connection between herniated discs and "sciatic type pain?" and joints, etc. Muscle tension is caused by anxiety, stress, worry, fear. You know this.
You have a systemic problem of heightened anxiety which keeps you ruminating over your favorite subject: yourself. I say this with all empathy and knowledge, not trying to be a smart ass, because for so long I was my favorite subject and the object of all my study. The more I studied myself the worse I got.
Go out and just practice walking on the snapping and popping hip, acknowledge it, do not fear it, objectify it, willingly accept it and finish the walk. If you get charged up and emotionally worked up about it, don't get all frustrated or disappointed. Do the same tomorrow. Practice makes healthy; testing makes despair.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads"
Cheers dude...oh yes, I know all about the body and symptom fixation only to well...it is a totl preoccupation which easily borders on obsession.
To answer the question, yep I can walk perfectly fine...heck I ran a 10k last Sunday, ran about 15 miles throughout last week and did a 5 mile hike this morning...I will be climbing a mountain in about 9 hours time as well.
The TMS guy I see also places a lot of store on the fact that I don't have mobility issues or loss of function as a good indication that its not structural and rather a nervous system issue..my issue seems to be pain and stiffness alone.
As you can see I certainly challenge my symptoms with exercise and the like but I totally and utterly do live in fear of them and more specifically that I'm doing more and more damage to my back/hip/leg...I know that to somebody who has accepted a non structural diagnosis this probably seems nonsense but of course I'm not in that place yet and as a result I agree I'm just feeding the fear cycle.
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated. |
| Back2-It |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 16:25:35
Pan,
Can you despite the pain and the snap, crackle, pop, walk on the hip, get from point A to point B? If so, the hip is a perfectly good with a perfectly good leg attached to it. Muscle tension compresses nerves and pulls tendons, and that is probably why there is no direct connection between herniated discs and "sciatic type pain?" and joints, etc. Muscle tension is caused by anxiety, stress, worry, fear. You know this.
You have a systemic problem of heightened anxiety which keeps you ruminating over your favorite subject: yourself. I say this with all empathy and knowledge, not trying to be a smart ass, because for so long I was my favorite subject and the object of all my study. The more I studied myself the worse I got.
Go out and just practice walking on the snapping and popping hip, acknowledge it, do not fear it, objectify it, willingly accept it and finish the walk. If you get charged up and emotionally worked up about it, don't get all frustrated or disappointed. Do the same tomorrow. Practice makes healthy; testing makes despair.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| pan |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 15:37:57
quote:
Originally posted by Peregrinus
quote:
Originally posted by pan
However, it appears that the snapping hip thing is different (it's also actually designated as a syndrome) in that its due to tight and constricted tendons and ligaments which actually rub against each other that causes the distinctive clunking sensation.
Someone on this forum said the naming something a "syndrome" means that you don't understand its cause.
Also, how can tendons or ligaments make a noise? For the last half an hour I've be rubbing tow legs of lamb together and I can't get a peep our of them.
Hmm, silly question but have you defrosted them.  |
| Peregrinus |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 15:06:44
quote:
Originally posted by pan
However, it appears that the snapping hip thing is different (it's also actually designated as a syndrome) in that its due to tight and constricted tendons and ligaments which actually rub against each other that causes the distinctive clunking sensation.
Someone on this forum said the naming something a "syndrome" means that you don't understand its cause.
Also, how can tendons or ligaments make a noise? For the last half an hour I've be rubbing tow legs of lamb together and I can't get a peep our of them. |
| pan |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 11:59:49
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
Well if you continue to believe in the structural explanation it seems you should keep pursuing the structural treatment? Nobody here can convince you it's psychological if you yourself don't believe it.
Indeed...I'm probably 50/50 and that's on a good day. I know that isn't enough and I know I have to find the answer within. Just another attempt to rationalise and intellectualise I suppose...I have form!  |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 11:49:57
Well if you continue to believe in the structural explanation it seems you should keep pursuing the structural treatment? Nobody here can convince you it's psychological if you yourself don't believe it. |
| pan |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 11:29:47
quote:
Originally posted by Peregrinus
The snapping, popping or clicking occurs in joints or where two or more bones come into close contact as in your spine, ankle or knee. The noise arises upon articulation of the bones and when the space between the bones forms a pocket. Think of pulling a suction cup off a glass window. The force applied in articulation causes a vacuum (actually low fluid pressure in the pocket) which when relieved results in the sound. Such a sound is an indication that the bones can be articulated and that the space or joint between them is tight (both good).
My thoughts initially.
However, it appears that the snapping hip thing is different (it's also actually designated as a syndrome) in that its due to tight and constricted tendons and ligaments which actually rub against each other that causes the distinctive clunking sensation. Unsurprisingly most of my 'research' indicates this is caused by a structural pelvic dysfunction which is what the good old chiro and osteo told me was going on about 18 months ago. As everybody quite rightly says I have to decide in which direction to go with this but even though there are 1001 reasons why I could have TMS this back/hip and leg issue just seems to be ticking all the boxes of a structural/physical explanation. I'm sure everybody who has cured has overcome this stumbling block but I just don't feel I'm getting close...very frustrating.
Wake me up with your amphetamine blast
Take me by the collar and throw me out into the world
Rock me gently & send me dreaming of something tender
I was brought here to pay homage to the beat surrender
|
| Peregrinus |
Posted - 06/29/2013 : 11:18:00
The snapping, popping or clicking occurs in joints or where two or more bones come into close contact as in your spine, ankle or knee. The noise arises upon articulation of the bones and when the space between the bones forms a pocket. Think of pulling a suction cup off a glass window. The force applied in articulation causes a vacuum (actually low fluid pressure in the pocket) which when relieved results in the sound. Such a sound is an indication that the bones can be articulated and that the space or joint between them is tight (both good). |
|
|
