| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Birdie78 |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 03:27:47
Lorimer Moseley is a famous pain scientists and author of the book explain pain (read it in German and although he does not know about TMS I found it to be very informative and good).
Please have a look at this interesting article in L. Moseleys blog:
http://www.bodyinmind.org/windows-into-pain/
Well, my English understanding is not as good as I wished, but as I understood it he now is in severe pain himself, or did I get it wrong? He hasn't got a clue why and I guess he never ever heard of TMS before and I feel the strong need to tell him about (in the blog below one can post suggestions), but perhaps someone with better English should do this :D
I am very curious about your opinions!
Kind regards from Germany sends Birdie |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| eric watson |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 07:22:15
awesome, thanks |
| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 05:03:39
I am happy to report that Moseley got back to me today, with a thanks for me sending him my draft manuscript last year, and a genuine apology for not getting back to me sooner- he says he is somewhat inundated with such books as well as unsolicited suggestions. The good news is that his pain has subsided over the last 3 months, and he says that he has learnt a lot as a result of the journey. I have asked him what helped to reduce the pain. When he replies, i will post his answer here (with his permission) as it may be of interest to others.
He is thoughtful and appears to want to join the dots with psychology in the equation, but i suspect his own mechanistic bias makes this a bit difficult (i quote him in various places in my book as i think his observations about neurological sensitisation are an important part of the chronic pain jig-saw puzzle).
This is what i wrote about him in 'The Hidden Psychology of Pain' (p.370)
Biological scientists, David Butler and Lorimer Moseley present a very
sound explanation of the physiology and neurology of chronic pain. They go into the physical ‘nuts and bolts’ details to a minute degree, but also acknowledge the essential role which psychological factors like emotions and pain beliefs play in the maintenance of chronic pain. The Hidden Psychology of Pain does not attempt to replicate their physiological level of analysis— this can best be gained by reading their book. Both their, and the more psychological approaches, are echoing the same message, albeit from
different directions and disciplines— both physiology and psychology are fundamentally important in the production and maintenance of chronic pain, as humans are clearly both physiological and psychological beings.
There is no inherent contradiction between these two approaches— they
are merely two sides of the one coin—a reflection of the mind/body
split espoused by Decartes hundreds of years ago. It is possible, with the greater awareness of mind/body holism, for these approaches to converge. Explain Pain and The Hidden Psychology of Pain represent physiologist’s and psychologist’s respective attempts to overcome the artificial distinctions between mind and body. Each discipline will approach it in a manner which may be different, but these differences can ultimately be complementary and inform each other.
James |
| jegol71 |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 00:01:45
Dr. Alexander,
Did anything come of your post to the chat room? I would look for myself, but have no idea where to look. In saw your post on Todd Hargrove's website as well, as well as the retort that followed. |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 13:36:56
I love this thread. Kudos to Dr. Alexander. Thank-you. |
| dgreen97 |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 10:39:09
i should mention that i also messaged him quite a while ago about how to rid yourself of pain, referring to his tedx talk, and he never responded to me either.. not sure why. |
| eric watson |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 10:36:36
totally agree dgreen97
if you can tell us about the mechanism,
now tell us how to heal from these maladies |
| dgreen97 |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 10:30:28
yeah i watched moseley's tedx talks and he makes really good points in there on how we become sensitized to pain but he never gives any way on how to desensitize ourselves/rid ourselves of pain. its one thing to know that we can become sensitized, but he never said what to do about it. |
| eric watson |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 09:24:13
this is awesome Dr. Alexander, you didn't have to do that but you did
it shows your here for the people in general. Not what's just going to make some grant money come in. it takes a strong will to stand up and tell the truth. I hope to be half the man you are in being able to have the courage to stand and tell even the big names, hey theres a different way to look at this. your on the edge of a breakthrough and then folks gotta stand and listen. Good luck on all your endeavors |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 09:01:56
The post appears to be from march 2012 |
| RageSootheRatio |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 07:31:39
Dr James, I am brought to tears by your generosity of spirit. (I just wish you were closer (to Canada) so I could come see you!) It is probable that if Lorimer Moseley is to get out of his pain, he will travel a hard road as your ideas would likely challenge his paradigms to the very depths of all his professional life's work. We are all traveling a hard journey in life and no one is 'suffering an overdose of kindness.' I hope you know how much your kindnesses and generosity to others is appreciated. ~ RSR |
| Birdie78 |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 05:34:50
Wow, Dr. James Alexander, I am glad to see you've already sent him all the informations needed to know everything about his pain condition. As you're a former pain sufferer and now a TMS therapist yourself your message should come along with a very high credibility.
Now it is his turn to take the first steps into the TMS journey!
Kind regards from Germany sends Birdie |
| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 04:40:02
this is what i have just posted on Lorimer Moseley's chat room- will see if it gets moderated out of existence? Hope i didnt sound too smug (not my intention).
Lorimer- sorry to hear you are in pain. As a psychologist with many years experiences of successfully treating people in chronic pain (and being a former chronic pain sufferer myself), the criticism i have long had in regards to the neuromatrix model of chronic pain is that i am yet to see one person overcome the problem with this understanding. Scientific understanding does not equate with healing- it makes biological scientists feel good about their advanced state of knowledge, but it makes no real difference to the sufferers. I gather you are now finding this to be the case. Ditto for many/most of the physical treatments of chronic pain. I am surprised that you are pursuing these approaches, as i assumed you would know what the research says about the poor efficacy of physical treatments for chronic pain. You may remember that i sent you a draft copy of my book last year, 'The Hidden Psychology of Pain'? If you still have the copy, you might like to read it as it addresses exactly the type of problem you now have. I have seen many people (including myself) overcome chronic pain using this depth-psychology approach. If you threw my draft book out, please let me know and i will send you the final (now published) copy of the book for free. I would suggest now is a good time for you to investigate the psychological contributors to chronic pain.
James |
| gigalos |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 04:27:37
Your english is excellent Birdie. Why not send him a short message?
Maybe he is open for it. |
| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 06/23/2013 : 04:27:26
Birdie- as Moseley is an Australian 'pain expert' i sent him a nearly completed draft of my book, 'The Hidden Psychology of Pain', over a year ago. I got no reply- no interest from him at all. His approach to chronic pain is referred to as the neuromatrix model. While it is quite fascinating to learn how we can become neurologically sensitised to pain, my criticism has always been that i fail to see how it can help anyone over come chronic pain. Exact details (or at least good scientific hypothesis) of the specific nuts and bolts of the body in pain are simply not enough to help a person out of pain. I am yet to hear one person report that the neuromatrix model has eliminated or even reduced their pain- but biological scientists are very enthusiastic for it, and tend to view the TMS approach with contempt. It is interesting to learn that Moseley is now in chronic pain. He will learn (if he hasnt already) that his scientific knowledge of biology is almost completely irrelevant, and that if he ever wants to overcome his shoulder pain, he needs to look into the psychology of it (specifically, the unconscious psychology of it). He has the information to heal himself already (unless my draft book landed immediately in his waste paper bin- i suspect it could have). Rather than simply bad luck, or the misfortune of not having access to helpful information, his problem is a willful ignorance. He is emblematic of our messed up and self defeating culture. I hope the enthusiasts of the neuromatrix model (usually detractors of the TMS model) are watching his case with interest. It is a cruel but informative irony.
James |
