| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Fredrika Rose |
Posted - 06/06/2013 : 15:44:44
I was diagnosed by a TMS doctor for TMS. My dissertation was about chronic pain from the soul's point of view (soul suffering). However, even though I worked faithfully for a year (every day) on Dr. Sarno's program. It was only with great strain that I could make it go away, only one or two days in all that time!
I have been in Depth analysis for 12 years. Once I had a healing dream that relieved the pain for two years. Then it came back with an auto accident where I stopped my car on the edge of a cliff to avoid a head-on collision.
This why I so appreciate Ace1"s list that I recently came upon. When I saw the word "hyped" and read about "mental strain," I was able with some practice to see it coming on. I started reviewing my days at night and could really recognize when I was "hyped." Yesterday, I got hyped from husking large corn plants. I did not recognize that doing such a task would hype me but it did. I rushed through the rest of the day with daily tasks and had severe pain.
I am able to help other people in pain but cannot seem to help myself.
Thanks to the people who have started this forum because I have been alone with this for a year. Unfortunately, my TMS doc was not empathetic.
Fredrika Rose |
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 06/10/2013 : 09:40:28
I just wanted to comment on a couple of the points discussed in these posts. It is really tricky about going to doctors. I prefer to have a keen awareness of which symptoms are TMS, TMS plus possibly some organic, or not (totally)TMS. However I do think that when people are prone to TMS, even purely organic illness always has harmonics of TMS. I think we need to listen to our bodies close enough that we can perceive when we are TMS'ing. Our TMS will always be there to make us more concerned than we need to be about organic illness and make it more painful and uncomfortable. Where there is TMS, there is usually an underlying emotion that we are not expressing that we can get at by listening for our unconscious bodily sensations. For example, where there is tension in some part of the body, there is usually repressed anger or fear. I am not telling people that they shouldn't get checked out, especially if you have a symptom that you have not had before. But for the typical TMS stuff that most have been recycling most of our lives, running to doctors about with no resolution, and attaching a lot of fear to, we usually know in our hearts what is really going on. TT is right that doctors in the US are fearful of being sued, so they always try hard to find something. This can really get a TMSer back into the treadmill and that is the danger. (For example,doctors often run all kinds of obscure blood tests on people with fibromyalgia looking for something and often find something that doesn't really mean anything or is caused by the mind. This convinces the sufferer that there really is something organically wrong with them.) Here in Panama where doctors are not afraid of being sued, they tend to be more honest with patients and will often say if they think a symptom is psychosomatic. For example, I have a great ENT doctor here that I used to go to for sore throats, allergies, asthma, colds and other mostly TMS stuff that I thought all my life was organic (because all doctors in the US told me I had sinus trouble.) He did X-rays on my sinuses and informed for the first time in my life, that, guess what?? I absolutely did not have sinus problems. My sinuses were completely normal. He told me the sore throats had 3 possible causes and if that was not it, I had psychosomatic illness. It turned out that most of my sore throats and nasal congestion was caused by GERD, which, for me, is TMS. Once I got control of that, no more sore throat unless I had a bad cold. (My parathyroid problem did cause some GERD and I had those fixed. I was grateful to find that). My husband, who is a retired doctor, thinks that running to doctors for the annoying, chronic stuff is just asking for trouble. Here is a common scenario. A person gets a viral cold (almost all colds are viral and antibiotics won't help a viral infection, it has to run it's course) and runs to a doctor for the symptoms. The doctor automatically prescribes antibiotics, which obviously will not work and give the person stomach trouble in the form of GERD and intestine problems because it kills off all the good bacteria that we need to digest our food. Then the person's symptoms get worse because of the GERD, so the person runs back to the doctor for a different antibiotic. And folks, this does not happen because of doctors, but because it is what patients demand.
I got so long winded that I forgot what my other point was, but will post this now so I don't lose it and pick up the thread later. |
| dgreen97 |
Posted - 06/09/2013 : 18:39:54
i didn't mean that short term anxiety relievers were bad, i meant to say you shouldn't substitute doing that and not doing the work you need to do to get better. i got in the habit of just rereading books and doing short term anxiety relief and then i wasn't doing my deep relaxation or thought direction like i should have been because my anxiety was calmed down for that short time. i think for sure if short term anxiety relief is helping you stay on the right path its all good.. i still do it each day but im doing the work every day now too unlike before.
i would find myself reading books each night instead of doing what I needed to do to get better. in other words, you can read all you want but you actually have to take some action if you want to get better which i wasn't doing for a long while. |
| gailnyc |
Posted - 06/09/2013 : 15:12:32
quote:
Originally posted by dgreen97
She also explained to me that this isn't so complicated to fix. I think people believe its more complicated because the results dont happen quickly. It can take a long time for this to go away but you have to stick to what you're doing and be consistent. Thats the other question I'd ask myself "How come I'm doing all the right things but I still feel like crap?" she said it takes time and rollercoastering (made that up) is normal.. where you go 2 steps forward, 1 step back, 1 step forward, 2 steps back, until the problem is fully resolved.
Definitely not a linear process and patience is the key I think. If you feel worse one day 2 months after you've been doing the right things everyday, it doesn't mean you're not doing everything you should. It just means this takes time and you have to be patient.
This is so, so true. I see people again and again posting about how they haven't gotten better yet and they've been at it for 5 or 6 days! Then they put pressure on themselves to get better and it only makes them worse. I know--I was one of these people. Patience does not come easily for me, but as I've practiced patience and letting go of fear I've felt better and better. But I know it is a process for me, not something that will happen quickly. I've been learning the habit of anxiety for many years and I know it will take me awhile to unlearn it.
I too have been lucky enough to find a therapist who believes in the mindbody connection though she had never heard of TMS per se before.
The only part of your post I don't agree with is that I think there is nothing wrong with short-term anxiety solutions. Not just re-reading books (my own choice is Claire Weekes) but also doing deep-breathing exercises or meditation work or even taking anti-anxiety meds if necessary. When you start out you may be in such a state of hyper-arousal that you need one of these things to help calm you down. Once you start learning to calm down (or "self-regulate") you may find these short-term solutions working for longer and longer until you need them less. But I see nothing wrong with taking whatever help you can, especially at first. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/09/2013 : 11:27:59
quote:
Originally posted by dgreen97
... "do you know why this stuff isn't mainstream? because theres no money in it" sad but true.
...i also think this stuff would be more mainstream if it didn't have 12 names that it went by.
Good points in both your posts! Is your cap key broken? I agree the TMS "pros" are coming up with too many names for the same thing, it just adds to the confusion for the surfferer, but will help the "pros" sell it better as something new.
Dr. Sarno uses TMS and "psychomatic" interchangeably. Most everyone knows what psychsoomatic means--if they don't they probably won't get it anyway. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/09/2013 : 11:20:37
quote:
Originally posted by dgreen97
"How come I'm doing all the right things but I still feel like crap?"
You are not doing good things to DISTRACT you from your woes. Go do something that makes you feel good and builds up your confidence.
G'luck! |
| dgreen97 |
Posted - 06/09/2013 : 09:39:00
another thing she said that i thought was interesting was "do you know why this stuff isn't mainstream? because theres no money in it" sad but true. you have doctors out there recommending surgery because its big bucks but if you gave them a book to read, or simple instructions that dont cost anything like what im doing, they dont make any money. its disgusting to me that some people would rather see others suffer for the rest of their lives just to make more money.
i also think this stuff would be more mainstream if it didn't have 12 names that it went by. I think people new to this type of thinking see the terms TMS, mind body disorder, nervous illness, anxiety, autonomic overload syndrome, etc. and think they are all different from eachother when they're not. if they were consolidated into one term i believe it would be more widely accepted as well. i know i had that problem at first. |
| dgreen97 |
Posted - 06/09/2013 : 09:14:26
ive been seeing a psychologist for a little while now and shes not a TMS doctor but we ended up talking about the same exact things that TMS books talk about. Yesterday when I talked to her somehow we got on the topic and a question I've asked myself before "If TMS is there as a defense mechanism to get me out of situtations I dont want to be in, why do I still have it when I dont get out of these situations?" For instance, I don't work part time, collect disability, avoid every social situation, etc. because of my eye pain. I could go down that path but I know it would just make me worse not better. So I wondered to myself, well Im not escaping these situations because fo the pain so what is this protecting me from? She said "its protecting you from your anxiety" i hadn't looked at it this way before.
even though im not getting out of the situations that i dont want to be in every time, it is protecting me from feeling anxiety about them because I dont feel anxiety I feel pain instead. I know this has been said so many times but to hear it from somebody, who isn't a TMS doctor, who isn't familiar with Sarno, and is local was very helpful to me. It's one thing to read that in a book but to talk to somebody in person about that is different.
It was very hard to find a doctor that agreed with me though. I had been studying this stuff for a long while and I had been to multiple psychotherapists and each one was like "did they find something when you went to the eye doctor? well then its not psychosomatic" which is BS. I guess this just proves that there are doctors out there that believe in the mindbody connection but dont necessarily know who Sarno is.
She also explained to me that this isn't so complicated to fix. I think people believe its more complicated because the results dont happen quickly. It can take a long time for this to go away but you have to stick to what you're doing and be consistent. Thats the other question I'd ask myself "How come I'm doing all the right things but I still feel like crap?" she said it takes time and rollercoastering (made that up) is normal.. where you go 2 steps forward, 1 step back, 1 step forward, 2 steps back, until the problem is fully resolved.
Definitely not a linear process and patience is the key I think. If you feel worse one day 2 months after you've been doing the right things everyday, it doesn't mean you're not doing everything you should. It just means this takes time and you have to be patient.
The stuff we talked about doing was very similar to what Monte talks about with Think Clean. If you have a thought, like a trigger, that comes up you have to redirect that thought to something positive and cancel it out. You could be doing this all day long at first but gradually your thoughts change. So for me its pretty simple what I'm doing: deep relaxation every day, committment to thinking psychological/thought redirection and patience.
This makes me think of what I believe people, like myself, keep reading TMS books or other mind body books thinking that next page is going to have the answers to the problem. Its a short term anxiety reliever. When you read that information again it calms you down but you're not doing the work if you keep rereading the same stuff over and over. Thats one habit Im trying to break out of. At this point I think I know what I need to know to overcome this and I have to get rid of that "crutch" to read for short term anxiety relief.
In reality I dont think it matters if you see 3 TMS doctors and they all tell you that its psychological. If you dont believe that yourself its not going to matter. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 06/08/2013 : 19:13:51
It was helpful to me to be told by a TMS doctor whose expertise was the spine that my neck pain was not structural, but was muscle tension from psychogenic issues. It didn't result in any miracles, far from it, but it gave me the confidence to move beyond the many wasteful and expensive modalities I had been pursuing. I am not sure if he had just been a family doctor, or had been a urologist or something, I would have had the same confidence though. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/08/2013 : 06:36:00
Alix, the answer to your question is very simple, TMS is about NOCEBOS and PLACEBOS, we believe the lies we want to believe. Donald Dubin didn't work for you, but he worked for me. He told me he didn't always agree the the TMS doc he works with who gave me my nocebo. The TMS doc you saw didn't resonate with you, so he left you with doubts. Docs are our modern day shamans, science is today's religion, TMS is about BELIEF.
The 50 or so people reading the forum on any given day don't scientifically reflect outcomes here--there's that word again, science or the religion of science, there are more then 2,000 people who have registered here over the years. It would be interesting for someone to do a follow-up study on them to see how many came here and left and see how they are doing now?
Which "scientific" studie does one believe? There's a lot of bad science out there! Sarno detractors, here and elsewhere say there's no science or clinical studies to back TMS theory up. The Good Doctor says there IS--I believe HIM! If you believe his books, his lifetime of clinical experience and the studies he cites, I BELIEVE he is right. I see a lot of rote, knee-jerk regurgitation here, of TMS misinformation. They are repeated from some long ago negative Amazon review of Dr. Sarno's books without any personal incites to back them up.
To believe in TMS you have to prove it to yourself, doing your own personal "science", discovering that it can really work for you. I prove it to myself almost daily by overcoming fears of TMS induced symptoms, that would send others to the ER. They're seeing and believing too many TV commercials selling quackery on Walgreen's shelves.
A doctor who believes in the power of psychosomatic medicine is a rarity. Alix, you believed your doctor, if you wanted to share his contact that could help others here. I would say he is a TMS doctor, since he appears to understand the major role the psyche plays in dis-ease. Maybe there's someone in your area who could be benefited by also seeing him.
Unfortunately, due to the highly litigious times we live in, doctors must practice defensive medicine. They must call for a a lot of tests to cover their behinds from mal-practice law-suits. Because medical imaging is so good today, a lot of what Dr. Sarno calls "gray hair of the spine", normal anomalies, are revealed and mistaken for real injuries and cited as evidence of structural causality, rather then TMS psychosomatic. These harmless anomalies are often cited as the need for invasive medical procedures, that can be more harmful then the original condition. These images are now being interpreted remotely by people who have no inkling about you, by radiologists in places like India, because it's cheaper. Then a doctor here reads the radiological report, and may recommend surgery based on a finding thousands of miles away, by a party who has never laid eyes on you, knowing nothing about how you function.
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/07/2013 : 15:00:55
quote:
Originally posted by balto
With all the time you've spent on this forum, with all those tms books you've read, with all those tms authors you've friended,... Why do you think the pain is still there TT?
Could well NOT be TMS, or could very well BE TMS or could be BOTH. It's only tennis, and I'm not gonna' have the trochanter of my femur and my acetabulum amputated, so I can be a step faster. I'm playing singles in a National Tournament, probably won't get a game, but won't put my opponent to sleep either. I do very well playing rec doubles, after about the third game, they don't hit the ball to me if they can help it. If you can serve they have to play you.
They call it a medical "PRACTICE", when the surgeons get enough practice, maybe I'll let them poke around in my hip joint with a scope. I've played too much tennis with docs to believe all their calls. I was a nationally ranked Senior Age Group player at one time and hope to get back there before I die.
Cheers,
tt/lsmft |
| alix |
Posted - 06/07/2013 : 14:39:43
I just don't understand this insistence on seeing a TMS doctor. It has been often detrimental to TMS patients.
TNS cannot be diagnosed directly so it is simply diagnosed by elimination. If the TMS doctor has some hesitations, if he/she diagnoses TMS a bit too quickly, or it is visibly out of his/her expertise, it is not helpful at best and can become a powerful nocebo at worst.
I have also witnessed on this forum people post things like "I saw a TMS doctor, I was pain free after the consultation: it is a miracle" but then 3 weeks later they are back posting about their TMS problems.
Much more helpful in my case was when my regular doctor that I really admire told me about Sarno and how it helped him. Same thing when Ace posts here about his experience.
As a side note, you are dealing well with your hip pain and you have a positive attitude. I command you for that but this is not reflective of TMS healing.
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| balto |
Posted - 06/07/2013 : 12:54:50
With all the time you've spent on this forum, with all those tms books you've read, with all those tms authors you've friended,... Why do you think the pain is still there TT?
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/07/2013 : 08:51:29
quote:
[i]Originally posted by dgreen97
Tom have you cured your pain even though they said this? This is why I dont think its necessary to get that diagnosis from a TMS doctor because theres always that chance they could throw you on the fence or in your case flat out say its not TMS.
For me personally it really wouldn't matter if I saw a TMS doctor to get validated because OCD can always create doubt.
Pain is still there, but no problem doing ANYTHING except running on land. I feel it's VERY IMPORTANT to get dx'ed by a TMS doc. If any competent allopathic doc tells me I'm healthy, I have no doubt in that DX--defensive medicine is pretty good these days--then I know it's TMS I don't worry about it and it immediately goes or fades away. I walk out happy and not looking for another doc to tell me there's something wrong--that would be hypochondria. |
| dgreen97 |
Posted - 06/07/2013 : 07:24:32
quote:
I saw two "Sarno trained" TMS docs and they both told me it's NOT TMS, get a hip-replacement. I'd love to trade dx's with you.
Tom have you cured your pain even though they said this? This is why I dont think its necessary to get that diagnosis from a TMS doctor because theres always that chance they could throw you on the fence or in your case flat out say its not TMS.
For me personally it really wouldn't matter if I saw a TMS doctor to get validated because OCD can always create doubt. |
| art |
Posted - 06/07/2013 : 04:48:37
Hi Fredrika,
I do some TMS coaching (no charge of course) and would be very interested in working with a Jungian. TMS treatment tends to be quite practical which of course is something you're not used to. I'd say that your healing dream was so effective because it removed your fear, which is very often the well-spring of psychosomatic pain...
Eventually your fear returned with the trauma you described, and along with it your symptoms.
TMS treatment should involve no strain. Trying and straining are counter-productive. A passive and if you can manage it serene"letting go," is most effective.
If you'd like to talk via email my address is plogthesmith@gmail.com
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/06/2013 : 18:07:06
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrika Rose
...Unfortunately, my TMS doc was not empathetic.
The doc did his job, dx'ing you with TMS, clearing you of anything structural, maybe he was having a bad day. Not much more he can do, docs today are too busy to give patients much time. Keep reading or contact a TMS savvy therapist, there's lists in my sig. A few sessions usually will do the trick.
Could you expand on how the TMS doc was "not empathetic" please? You're lucky, I saw two "Sarno trained" TMS docs and they both told me it's NOT TMS, get a hip-replacement. I'd love to trade dx's with you.
G'luck,
tt
==================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Dr. Sarno is now retired, if you call this number you will be referred to his associate Dr. Rashbaum.
"...there are so many things little and big that are tms, I wouldn't have time to write about all of them": Told to icelikeaninja by Dr. Sarno
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 06/06/2013 : 16:34:48
Thank you for the feedback fredrika, that is very helpful. It will help you if you keep practicing bc it is the truth. You have already seen this subtle truth, which is why you understand. Keep up the good work! |
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