| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| art |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 05:28:49
Well, so much for my retirement from the forum. JUst can't seem to stay away.
Just want to weigh in once again on the ongoing discussion as to true cause of TMS, and especially the confusion of newcomers on this issue.. I think it's important enough to merit its own thread.
Dave's made the point several times that it's his preference that we keep it simple for newcomers by sticking to Dr. Sarno orthodoxy. It's a valid concern, and up until a few years ago I was always careful to add qualifications to my sense that psychosomatic pain is caused for the most part by consciously felt stress. I'd usually note that this was just my opinion and the opinion of some others on the forum, and for newcomers in doubt it's probably better to just stick to what the books say..
But as time has passed I continue to see new forum members struggling to get to the root of their unconscious rage by journaling and other methods of intense introspection. I think for many this is counterproductive...because it actually adds to stress and anxiety, which as most of us understand is the exact opposite of what we should be doing.
I think it's important to remember that we're not discussing theology here. Dr. Sarno is not to be seen as some sort of medical Moses coming down from the mountain top with instructions for how to self treat TMS carved in stone tablets. Opinions among experts vary. Many professionals don't even call it TMS any longer, but see psychosomatic pain as a stress disorder which is to be treated as such.
I also think it's important to remind the newcomer that the two views of psychosomatic pain are not mutually exclusive. Dr. Sarno himself has said many times that it's often not necessary for the patient to do anything more than accept that his pain is not structural in nature and that he/she can't injure himself/herself by continuing to be physically active. This understanding by itself, when fully embraced, is very likely sufficient to produce a cure.
This latter point should in my opinion, be stressed by more experienced members when this issue comes up for newcomers. This honest difference of opinion need not in any way hold back newcomers if we remember to do that.
As always, interested in what others think...
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 03/03/2017 : 04:40:26
OMG, I just saw that Art wrote this 4 years ago. And here I was, thinking he was on the other end of the computer! Come back, Art, all is forgiven.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 03/03/2017 : 04:39:24
Hi Art, welcome back — I’m back too, and hi TT, and All,
Here I am, up at 3am feeling kind of anxious and crappy.
I think it’s important to remember that the purpose of these theories is functional. Without getting into a big epistemological rant about sense data and mental interpretation of swirling forces, none of these theories describe “reality” at all (as in the dark matter example); but they can negotiate with packets of our experience in ways that allow stuck experience to seem less stuck, and our lives then open up to new possibilities.
My experience with myself and my therapy clients is that any and all of the above models may apply, at some point. For example, the suppressed rage theory is not a theory, to me (and I have 35 years clinical experience). Very often when a person is able to recognize and FEEL their subconscious rage there is a dramatic lessening of the need for symptoms. But then current stresses can cause them again, and often in the same part of the body, or same loop of body parts.
(BTW I’m aware that it’s believed that you can’t “feel” and “heal” your unconscious rage, and you certainly can’t with talk therapy, but there are practices of breathwork, energy work and hypnotherapy that work very powerfully to access this stuff. As does being with a practitioner who is not afraid of a person releasing rage. It actually doesn’t have to be dramatic or cathartic, with the right practices. Just sayin’.).
There is a kind of spectrum of approaches that I feel drawn to with different people, and even at different phases of my own life. At one end is the compassionate stress and trauma level: “Honey, you’ve been under so much stress that it’s caused your toe to buzz. We need to find a way to alleviate this very real stress that is causing this very real toe buzz.” At the other end is something like “WTF, Dude, it’s all made up. It’s just a distraction from your inner reservoir of rage and you just need to forget about it and get on with your life.” And all the approaches in between these two, with varying degrees of gentleness towards the person’s pain, AND BELIEF IN THEIR PAIN. Perhaps they need that survival strategy?
Definitely there are levels of trauma that just get worse if their expression is invalidated. I was at a tough love cognitive-type seminar years ago in which the leader kept trying to process a woman who was in emotional pain about childhood sexual abuse. The woman needed to be heard. The leader seemed to need her to “admit” it wasn’t real now. The next morning the woman was taken off in an ambulance.
Taking the wrong approach with the wrong person can cause them some suffering. Erring on the side of kindness seems like a good plan — especially since almost every NDE says that’s what we will judge our lives on after death: how did you make other people feel? There doesn’t seem to be any stipulation about “how right were you?”
Darlings, great to be chatting. I feel kinda lonely.
Knowing that I don’t know.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| music321 |
Posted - 02/12/2017 : 16:12:38
Quote:
The ideas I expressed are not outliers, but increasingly mainstream. Most practitioners now recognize consciously felt stress as a direct causal agent, in addition to repressed emotions. In clinical practice moreover, the emphasis is frequently on consciously experienced stress, rumination, and worry.
I wonder, however, if there are unconscious underpinnings to consciously felt stress. On a daily basis, I feel stress, and am very conscious of it.
Others would feel more stress when presented with my life circumstances, and others would feel less. I believe this is due to psychological and physiological differences. With TMS, it seems, that many physiological hypersensitivities within the nervous system can be over-ridden through conscious effort. It also seems that the unconscious progenitors of conscious stress can be controlled consciously. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 11:17:57
quote:
Originally posted by art
... Most practitioners now recognize consciously felt stress as a direct causal agent, in addition to repressed emotions. In clinical practice moreover, the emphasis is frequently on consciously experienced stress, rumination, and worry.
And so does Dr. Sarno, hence the overflowing "reservoir of rage" analogy. He says TMS is caused by a combination of stessors, repressed and suppressed in the past, present and worry about the future. The combination varying from individual to individual like snowflakes. |
| art |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 11:05:19
The ideas I expressed are not outliers, but increasingly mainstream. Most practitioners now recognize consciously felt stress as a direct causal agent, in addition to repressed emotions. In clinical practice moreover, the emphasis is frequently on consciously experienced stress, rumination, and worry.
http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Terminology_for_TMS/PPD
Alternative Names for TMS
Automatic Overload Syndrome (AOS): Dr. Scott Brady developed the term AOS to describe chronic conditions, which he discusses in his book Pain Free for Life. Brady defines AOS as a group of chronic pains and other symptoms caused by harmful levels of stress, pressure, and repressed strong negative emotions that have built up in the subconscious mind. The symptoms of AOS include back pain, headaches, irritable bowel syndrome, insomnia, and other chronic conditions. Brady focuses on stress and pressure that builds up in the autonomic nervous system, which causes these conditions. [Brady, Scott. Pain Free for Life. New York: Hachette Book Group. 2006. pg. 8]
Mind Body Syndrome (MBS): Dr. Howard Schubiner calls the condition of having chronic symptoms caused by psychological factors as MBS. Schubiner says "MBS is caused by a complex set of neurological connections between the brain and the body, rather than a disease localized in one area of the body." MBS symptoms include chronic pan syndromes, such as tension headaches, back pain, fibromyalgia, and Myofascial Pain syndrome, as well as autonomic nervous system related disorders such as irritable bowel syndrome and Reflex sympathetic dstrophy. Other symptoms are also included in MBS like insomnia, Tinnitus, Anxiety, and Chronic fatigue syndrome. [Schubiner, Howard. Unlearn Your Pain. Pleasant Ridge: Mind Body Publishing. 2010. pg. 8-19]
Stress Illness: Dr. Dave Clarke has coined the phrase Stress Illness to diagnose conditions that are chronic and caused by psychological factors of stress and the repression of emotions. Clarke argues that there are five different kinds of stress that create physical symptoms such as childhood, current, traumatic, depression and anxiety disorders. Clarke argues that other names such as psychosomatic and somatoform disorder suggest that the patient's symptoms are either not real or are part of a psychological disorder instead of being cause by stress. Clarke writes "Sufferers are often unaware of the nature or degree of the stress that makes them ill. Symptoms can occur anywhere in the body and can be just as severe as symptoms caused by any other disease, but x-rays and blood tests cannot detect the cause." [Clarke, Dave. They Can%27t Find Anything Wrong. Boulder: First Sentient Publications. 2007.] |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 09:32:46
quote:
Originally posted by dgreen97
im not talking about you at all. i've just met some people over who are diehard sarno and think if you don't follow his principles to the letter you won't get better. monte is kind of like this where if you dont follow his principles the distraction strategy has you and you're going to be in pain no matter what you do. i just think there needs to be more gray area between sarno's principles and what other people are suggesting as well and no so concrete like what monte says.
no sure why you think i was directing that at you tom because i agree with what you've said in a lot of the posts i've seen you write. one thing that really stood out to me is when you said that TMS can amplify existing pain which i believe as well.
I didn't take any great offense, just couldn't understand who or what you were talking about, thanks for clarifying that. It's been a while since I've read a Sarno book, but the theory is quite simple: The pain is benign, just do it! As to how and who you wish to do it with, that's your business--different strokes for different folks, it's your time and money. If one practitioner's methods or book doesn't work, there are plenty out there to try on for size who may "resonate" with your personality type better. If Moses doesn't work for you, follow Mohammed, Jesus, Buddha or Bullwinkle. There is one principle that is paramount to TMS and that is it's benign, just do it!--You can't be thinking the world is half-round and half-flat at the same time, that will mess with your internal GPS--although someday that may come about, but then you won't be worried about your TMS symptom.
If you've found a "cure" that works, then write a book and inform others. If you're still suffering from TMS, then maybe it's because you need to follow the "principles" rather then being distracted into discussions of what's not to like about them. |
| art |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 08:41:00
quote:
Originally posted by dgreen97
in fact monte scared the hell out of me in the other direction. instead of being afraid originally when I began TMS treatment that i was going to do myself harm if i didn't continue the physical treatments doctors gave me, then i became afraid that if i did anything to my body physically that i was feeding the distraction strategy. i just dont think its so cut and dry like some people think.
Hey dg and tt:
No offense intended TT. I don’t mean to suggest that I don’t have great respect for Dr. Sarno and his pioneering work. I only mean that I don’t think it’s helpful to think of his approach...which has helped many, many people...too dogmatically.
dg, I couldn’t agree more with your take on things. There really shouldn’t be a need for dispute on this stuff. I think the different theories out there can co-exist nicely. |
| dgreen97 |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 07:57:18
in fact monte scared the hell out of me in the other direction. instead of being afraid originally when I began TMS treatment that i was going to do myself harm if i didn't continue the physical treatments doctors gave me, then i became afraid that if i did anything to my body physically that i was feeding the distraction strategy. i just dont think its so cut and dry like some people think. |
| dgreen97 |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 07:55:30
im not talking about you at all. i've just met some people over who are diehard sarno and think if you don't follow his principles to the letter you won't get better. monte is kind of like this where if you dont follow his principles the distraction strategy has you and you're going to be in pain no matter what you do. i just think there needs to be more gray area between sarno's principles and what other people are suggesting as well and no so concrete like what monte says.
no sure why you think i was directing that at you tom because i agree with what you've said in a lot of the posts i've seen you write. one thing that really stood out to me is when you said that TMS can amplify existing pain which i believe as well. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 05/13/2013 : 00:07:19
quote:
Originally posted by dgreen97
you also made a good point that a lot of people treat dr. sarno like moses coming down from the mountain. i have no issues with dr sarno at all and i think hes right there are some people however who seem to worship him and if you "defy" his principles about what causes TMS by suggesting another avenue of treatment or whatever then you are frowned upon.
I find a statement like that too general to be of any value. If you're talking about me then we can have a useful discussion about it, otherwise it's just gossip. If you're talking about me I don't "worship" him but do have a profound respect for him, his work and what he has had to endure being ostracized by the medical "profession". The Good Doctor himself says it doesn't matter what causes the distraction. What other "avenues of treatment" are you talking about, please be more specific. |
| dgreen97 |
Posted - 05/12/2013 : 19:28:46
art i couldn't agree with you more on this. i would consider myself a chronic worry and very much have health anxiety. the points you made really resonated with me because i believe the worry, obsessiveness, fear is at the root of this. thats why treatments for anxiety and TMS are virtually the same. after doing lots of reading about the subject of mindbody, stress and anxiety, the treatments are pretty much identical and the same topics are discussed. whether people want to look at it as unconscious rage or stress itself causing the pain symptoms, i believe its the stress itself manifesting in the body and exhibiting through pain.
you also made a good point that a lot of people treat dr. sarno like moses coming down from the mountain. i have no issues with dr sarno at all and i think hes right there are some people however who seem to worship him and if you "defy" his principles about what causes TMS by suggesting another avenue of treatment or whatever then you are frowned upon.
from many of the recovery stories i've read and watched i see the same things happening. people stop becoming afraid of their symptoms and their pain goes away. this happened to forest when he stopped fearing using the computer, steveo when he pushed through the pain in his back and sat through it no matter what, it seems the root of them all was the fear.
some people believe it's unconscious rage that's causing the pain, others believe its stress or fear, anxiety. all of these things turn on the fight or flight system in the body and produce stress hormones. i just wish some people would be more open to the thought that maybe just saying your pain is psychologically caused is not enough but you have to make real change in your life to progress through this. i know because i was an extremely negative person for a long time and its been really difficult to change that. in the past year i've made lots of changes in my behaviors and i've noticed how i had been acting for so long so i think my body began to make me pay for it 8 years ago. couple that with anxiety, obsessions, both TMS equivalents you might say, 10 years of repressed anger towards someone, and there is a breeding ground for mind body disorder. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 15:16:07
quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
...that most of us are hypochondriacs.
...In fact I would go so far as to say that almost all people who frequent health forums are basically hypochondriacs.
CB, you are probably right about most but not all, I consider this to be a "HEALTH" forum and the others you speak of to be "sickness" forums. I come here to keep myself healthy and because I'm interested in the TMS mindbody topic. I don't view myself as a hypochondriac at all. The last time I went to a doc was a few years ago, to get the stuck tip of an inferior brand cotton swab out of my ear, now I only buy Q-Tip brand. I don't get annual checkups and only go when I'm reeaally SICK. TMS Knowledge Penicillin has even helped me overcome attacks on my immune system shaking flues off in their initial phases. On the rare occasion I'm home with a cold, I kinda' look forward to it--as Deepak Chopra says, "Staying home with a cold, is the Western form of meditation."
Cheers,
tt/lsmft |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 10:18:10
I think you are right Art, that most of us are hypochondriacs. My personal opinion is that all TMS'ers are hypochondriacs, but not all hypochondriacs have TMS. In fact I would go so far as to say that almost all people who frequent health forums are basically hypochondriacs. The average normal person doesn't find this kind of information particularly interesting or pleasant. For example, I belong to a health form for osteoporosis. This forum, as has been said by many, is simply not at all representative of the normal population. The most common feature of these people is not so much that their osteoporosis is so severe, but that their anxiety and worry about their condition is very severe. They really belong on a mental health forum, but just try to tell them that. These people frequent these forums because their anxiety is so overwhelming that they are driven to it, although this activity usually make them even more anxious. Hypochondriacs also place a huge burden on health care systems because the ones who do not know they are hypochondriacs, and even some who do know, constantly run to doctors. They also constantly fall prey to the pharmaceutical, health supplement, and general snake oil industries in their never ending quest to relieve their anxiety.
I have recovered from TMS, but I have not recovered from hypochondria. I really hate being a hypochondriac because I feel that it is stealing my life. I would like to be directing my energy elsewhere. That is why I am trying so hard to get over this.
The big, unanswered question is what causes this and how can we relieve this condition. The conscious mind, even when it is completely aware of the fact that it has these tendencies, is quite powerless to stop being this way because scary and uncomfortable bodily phenomena are always distracting it, causing anxiety and other bad emotions. There seems to be mounting evidence that these people are bothered by states of sympathetic system hyper-arousal and overactive central nervous systems, making them hyper aware of autonomic bodily processes and sensations. I think it is quite possible that it is not pre-existing anxiety that causes hypochondria, but rather this hyper activity that causes states of anxiety. When you really think about it, anxiety is not a mental state at all, it is a label that our consciousness places upon a jumble of uncomfortable, often scary bodily sensations that we do not understand and that seem to want us to do something. If you ask someone to really drill down and tell you how they know they are anxious, they will always in the end, describe physical bodily sensations such as butterflies in the stomach, ache in the pit of the stomach, trembling extremities, fast heart beat, etc.
Yep, Art, you hit the nail right on the head. |
| art |
Posted - 05/04/2013 : 05:58:20
quote:
Originally posted by Dr James Alexander
i have no doubt that both unconscious forms of distress and stress can be responsible for TMS pain. Both within the one person (each can be making a contribution) and between people (one person may be suffering more from one source than the other). I really think the TMS world is big enough to incorporate both possibilities. I have enjoyed reading Robert Scaer's 'The Trauma Spectrum' in which he argues more in favour of the stress model i relation to trauma. And for other people, the source of their problems are clearly of a more unconscious conflict nature. One lesson from the bio-psycho-social model of medicine which we need reminding of is that the human organism-in context is so complex that no one model can hope to make sense of it. All models are merely approximations, and some approximations are inherently meaningful to some people, whereas others are meaningful to other people. There is no essential conflict in this- they all just make the discussion richer and more comprehensive.
James
All very sound stuff. I would only make the observation that if the forum can be thought of as a representative sampling of TMs sufferers, the stress idea seems to be more applicable to the majority. After 7 years or so of hanging around here, a kind of typical patient profile has emerged it seems to me...
Far and away, in my opinion, the most common characteristic of the forum members is a tendency to worry, especially around issues of health. I'd be willing to bet that over half of us have substantial hypochondriacal tendencies, including myself. I'd go even further and make an educated guess that for many to most of those, health anxiety and hypochondria are at the root of our psychosomatic pain.
After that, I'd say anger..that is conscious anger...is very common as well.
Edit: Just to add, of course it's possible that my premise is wrong about the forum being a representative sampling. One could theorize that those with health anxiety are more likely to be surfing the net looking up symptoms and so forth. Hence, perhaps that segment of TMS sufferers are just more likely to find the forum |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 05/03/2013 : 22:09:49
I agree with you, Dr. Alexander. I want to say something about this notion of "the unconscious". It is really not so mysterious when you consider that most of our bodily functions are controlled by processes operating under the level of conscious awareness. I am also beginning to think that far more of what we generally attribute to conscious causation is in fact really controlled and caused by unconscious processes. So perhaps a lot of psychological theories assume conscious causation when, in fact, an unconscious process preceded and caused the action. For example, in my own personal experience, I communicate regularly with my unconscious using a pendulum, via my body's electrical system. I have often noticed for years that when I am about to ask it a question, even before thinking of the question, I get an answer to the question that I was about to ask, but was as yet unaware consciously of the question I was about to ask. I often wondered how this could happen. Is all of this really caused and controlled by my unconscious and my consciousness just thinks it is the causative and controlling agent?
Just recently, I was really surprised, while reading Peter Levine's book, "In an Unspoken Voice". He reports a study done about 30 years ago by Ben Libet in which he asks subjects to consciously move their arms and hands in a certain way. He then systematically measures the timing of 3 things: 1.The subjects conscious decision to move the arm. 2. The readiness potential in the motor cortex of the brain using EEG electrodes on the scalp. 3. The start of the actual action using electrodes on the wrist. This way, he was able to determine in what order in time these 3 things happened. Instead of what you would expect, that the subject's conscious decision to move the arm happened first, what actually happened first was number 2, the preparatory action in the motor cortex. Number 1, the conscious decision happened next and then last the action happened. It was quite clear that the conscious decision to move the arm came far too late to be the cause of the action. For me, this sort of validated my increasing suspicion that there may actually be no action that takes place in the body that is actually caused by the conscious mind. Perhaps the conscious mind only comes after the fact, explaining to ourselves an action not evoked by consciousness, sort of as an overlay or storefront. As TT stated above, with regard to M-Theory of which I am also a big fan, reality is often completely counter-intuitive. It would not be the first time we were completely wrong, as when after years and years of scientific study, cosmologists just happened to discover through some mathematical calculations, that what we thought was in the Universe, that is what we could detect, in fact made up only about 5% of the material actually present in the Universe. The rest was composed of dark energy and dark matter, which we know must be there but we cannot detect.
One thing I am pretty sure of is that seriously not enough attention is being pain to unconscious drivers of TMS. |
| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 05/03/2013 : 20:06:28
i have no doubt that both unconscious forms of distress and stress can be responsible for TMS pain. Both within the one person (each can be making a contribution) and between people (one person may be suffering more from one source than the other). I really think the TMS world is big enough to incorporate both possibilities. I have enjoyed reading Robert Scaer's 'The Trauma Spectrum' in which he argues more in favour of the stress model i relation to trauma. And for other people, the source of their problems are clearly of a more unconscious conflict nature. One lesson from the bio-psycho-social model of medicine which we need reminding of is that the human organism-in context is so complex that no one model can hope to make sense of it. All models are merely approximations, and some approximations are inherently meaningful to some people, whereas others are meaningful to other people. There is no essential conflict in this- they all just make the discussion richer and more comprehensive.
James |
| art |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 21:29:53
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
In The Divided Mind there is an interesting case history reported of a patient of one of the early proponents of psychosomatic medicine. The patient was cured by a stress reduction program. Dr. Sarno concludes that the program must have convinced the patient that her pain was psychogenic. Others presumably would say that the stress was the source of the pain in the first place.
There is an interesting example of one of his own patients. She used to get severe pain when her husband returned late from hunting trips. Dr. Sarno concludes that her pain was caused by her unconscious rage at him for causing her fear. Others presumably would say that her pain was caused by her fear.
pspa,
In my college days as a psych major (a long, long, long time ago) we called alternative interpretations of how the mind works "constructions." So for example one construction would be Freudian in nature (or "psychodynamic" more generally), and on the opposite side of the spectrum there'd be "skinnerian" or "behavioral" approach.
Those are roughly comparable to the two main theories of TMS. Sarno talks like a Freudian whereby the unconscious mind is full of seething rage. Other's talk about more tangilble, more measurable processes like anxiety. The unseen, inner workings of the supposed unconscious mind are left out on the grounds that they can't be seen or measured.
I like the latter approach because it's more direct and to my way of thinking simpler. It also squares with my own experience. Of course what's left out of the second approach is precisely how stress is converted into physical symptoms, so perhaps it's not as simple as if first appears. Then again, Dr. Sarno doesn't know how unfelt rage converts to physical pain either. He talks about a slightly impeded blood flow, but I think he'd concede he's only theorizing. Perhaps that;s something that at some point could be measured.
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| Back2-It |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 21:25:10
What Balto just said somewhere is true; that is, once you realize that your pain is psychogenic, then you are half-way there. As Ace1 had pointed out in the Keys, sometimes the healing takes longer due to the intensity and length of the problem. Ace also explained in the Keys and his driving example that we unconsciously brace or splint an area, strain into it, causing more pain. Whether this is caused by the unconscious or caused by current stress (due to the unconscious?), it all comes back to fear and having the knowledge to overcome the fear of the pain.
There are the tortoises and the hares, and it is not always a straight path from book to cure.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 18:25:53
In The Divided Mind there is an interesting case history reported of a patient of one of the early proponents of psychosomatic medicine. The patient was cured by a stress reduction program. Dr. Sarno concludes that the program must have convinced the patient that her pain was psychogenic. Others presumably would say that the stress was the source of the pain in the first place.
There is an interesting example of one of his own patients. She used to get severe pain when her husband returned late from hunting trips. Dr. Sarno concludes that her pain was caused by her unconscious rage at him for causing her fear. Others presumably would say that her pain was caused by her fear. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 09:06:46
quote:
Originally posted by art
...Dr. Sarno himself has said many times that it's often not necessary for the patient to do anything more than accept that his pain is not structural in nature and that he/she can't injure himself/herself by continuing to be physically active. This understanding by itself, when fully embraced, is very likely sufficient to produce a cure.
HEAR, HEAR! Well said Back2-It and Art. The above is the simple truth one needs to take the leap of faith and believe to be "cured" of TMS/psychosomatic pain. |
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