| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| indiana |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 02:17:42
One month ago I did not know that there was something called TMS. Then I came to this forum, read two of Sarnos books and I think I can understand what it is about. I know that self help books can make you happy for 5 minutes but after that there is work to be done and that is usually where I get stuck....I think however the valuable information I have received through so many posts on this forum will be of more help to me than the books. I have noticed that Sarno mostly concentrates on back pain. There is very little about TMJ (and fibromalgia for that matter). That is why I am still in doubt.
I think I have TMS but I am not certain. For the last 20 years I have (among other symptoms due to anxiety and depression) had back pain (now gone for one year) irritable bowel syndrome, dizziness (comes and goes but never leaves me completely even in good periods) and TMJ. TMJ has gotten worse over the last years. I always thought dizziness was the worst but now it is TMJ. My jaw and all my face muscles are extremely tight. I never relax and at night I clench my teeth. I have also toothache and of course tight neck and shoulders/head muscles. TMJ comes in many forms and it gives hell to many people and many people also get the wrong treatment from their dentists (splints that don't help and worse things).
In this country it is as if TMJ is not acknowledged. My dentist is not saying that I have TMJ and there does not seem to be as many TMJ specialists or physiotherapists (who know about TMJ) as f.eks. in the USA (I know there are a lot of moneymakers and fakes also). I have been struggling with this syndrome for all these years and I feel completely alone. My GP did not even know about TMJ. If I went to her and told her that I had TMS she would give me that look....(what is it NOW that's wrong with her). I cannot imagine that there are any TMS doctors in this country. Have not even bothered to check.
I am reading a book on TMJ written by a very respected american dentist at the moment (Robert Uppgaard) on how to live with TMJ and doing exercises etc. There is also a chapter on fibromalgia and whiplash. They all seem to give similar symptoms. The exercises don't help at all and I believe that I am tensing my muscles all day long (have probably done for years) because of my thoughts and things from a tough childhood I have not come to terms with (this is a guess). The tense muscles in the face make me very miserable and I don't even feel like smiling any more as I am both tense on the in- and outside. I am in this vicious circle called TMJ/anxiety/depression and don't know which comes first.
My questions:
Should I drop the book written by the dentist and try to distract myself (which is very difficult because I use my face and mouth all the time).
Should I just assume it is TMS, ignore the symptoms and do what you advise to do?
Thanks for reading
M. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| plum |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 17:16:33
gmar7814, so true, giving the damned thing attention is the flashpoint. I have to observe a certain personal irony here; a few weeks ago, I returned from a *run* (foolish endeavour now abandoned), and decided an English breakfast was the order of the day. Duly lifted out frying pan and lo and behold my wrist 'gave way'. Hmm methinks. Unlikely such action can occasion bodily harm and decide that tms has overplayed it's hand. pun intended.
But here's the thing. Over time it's flung all manner of upper and lower back pain, shoulder woes, achilles tendon pain (currently having a jolly) and such at me and I care less so no cigar. TMJ is a freakily different matter. So I lap your words up and keep the faith. Aye. I do. |
| gmar7814 |
Posted - 05/15/2013 : 13:16:30
I developed TMJ several months after developing RSI. This is what made me suspicious about RSI because TMJ was a mysterious disease like RSI and I thought that it indicated that both may be "stress" related. This is what finally convinced me to give Sarno's approach a chance. Low and behold, my TMJ and RSI were both cured within a week. The TMJ does come back on occasion, but only briefly (like an hour or two), because I just don't worry about it or pay it any attention.
I am 100% certain that TMJ is a TMS equivalent. |
| indiana |
Posted - 05/12/2013 : 04:52:48
quote:
Originally posted by Uma
Wow it's so nice to hear from people who understand how hard this TMJ is. I've had so much body pain over the years, but the facial pain—jaw, eyes, ears, sinus, etc.—having your whole face hurt, it is so in your face, and it makes you not want to face anyone because there is never a real smile there, you just want to hide and cope with the pain. It is like being in a nonstop torture device. I guess if this is TMS it is a pretty effective distraction. No matter how well my life is going I cannot be happy if I'm feeling this. I cried when I read some of the posts on this thread, to hear from people who know how horrible this is. I believe it is TMS because I have been so tense for so long, and it's let go before in the past, but not for months and I feel like I am going crazy. Anyway, just a big huge thanks for this thread.
Hi Uma,
It is good to get an accurate description of what TMJ can do to you
and is exactly how I feel. Unfortunately I have been reading a lot on the TMJ forum. Don't do that. It is nothing like this forum because people only write about how horrible and hopeless they feel and that is how you feel after reading the threads. Lately I have picked myself up and decided to treat this tension everywhere but especially around my mouth and jaw as TMS. I have become better at distracting from it (saying to myself I am tensing up because it is psychological). I have noticed what an angry person I really am and it must have something to do with my tension. So I am working at that. I am not thinking of going to more dentists, doctors or even to get a massage. I used to be worried about my posture. Now I just sit as I please. I am doing a little yoga and my daughter has thought me some exercises which are especically good for loosening up in your face and upper body. I am walking 2 km every day (sometimes 3 km on bicycle as well). Of course it has helped that we have gotten rid of this horrible winter and I can do gardening in the fresh air. All in all my mood has become better because I have some hope now that eventually I might be able to relax which would help my face- and jaw muscles. It is very important to avoid stress and if I feel it coming on or if I get angry I ask myself why. After "analysing" what's wrong I try to become calm.
I can only say what has helped me but I guess everybody is different. All the best
Marlis |
| indiana |
Posted - 05/12/2013 : 04:34:39
quote:
Originally posted by GTfan
I have another question regarding TMJ. First, a little background:
I have never "officially" been diagnosed with TMJ. The pain started around the same time I was having chest pain, acid reflux, and esophagus spasms from anxiety. I thought it was an esophagus spasm, because it felt like it was in my throat. Eventually, I did a lot of research and decided that it had to be TMJ. Shortly after, the pain seemed to move around and eventually settled in my right jaw.
I had grinded my teeth down for years in my sleep and also poppped the right side of my jaw a lot, so this made sense. The pain
lessened when I started wearing my night guard (placebo effect?). And now I still struggle with it every day, but it mostly isn't terrible.
The problem is that I feel like I still "baby" my jaw unconsciously. I try not to chew too long or open my mouth too wide. Should I just really try to focus on ignoring TMJ completely and acting as if nothing is going on by using my jaw forcefully when eating and whatever else?
You’ll fall down, you stumble, you land square on your face. And every time that happens, you get back on your feet. You get up just as fast as you can, no matter how many times you need to do it
Hi GTfan
My advice would be to chew as normally as possible and also open your mouth as wide as you can. Trying to ignore TMJ is the best ting but also the most difficult to do. |
| Uma |
Posted - 05/12/2013 : 02:08:54
Wow it's so nice to hear from people who understand how hard this TMJ is. I've had so much body pain over the years, but the facial pain—jaw, eyes, ears, sinus, etc.—having your whole face hurt, it is so in your face, and it makes you not want to face anyone because there is never a real smile there, you just want to hide and cope with the pain. It is like being in a nonstop torture device. I guess if this is TMS it is a pretty effective distraction. No matter how well my life is going I cannot be happy if I'm feeling this. I cried when I read some of the posts on this thread, to hear from people who know how horrible this is. I believe it is TMS because I have been so tense for so long, and it's let go before in the past, but not for months and I feel like I am going crazy. Anyway, just a big huge thanks for this thread. |
| GTfan |
Posted - 05/09/2013 : 14:58:21
I have another question regarding TMJ. First, a little background:
I have never "officially" been diagnosed with TMJ. The pain started around the same time I was having chest pain, acid reflux, and esophagus spasms from anxiety. I thought it was an esophagus spasm, because it felt like it was in my throat. Eventually, I did a lot of research and decided that it had to be TMJ. Shortly after, the pain seemed to move around and eventually settled in my right jaw.
I had grinded my teeth down for years in my sleep and also poppped the right side of my jaw a lot, so this made sense. The pain lessened when I started wearing my night guard (placebo effect?). And now I still struggle with it every day, but it mostly isn't terrible.
The problem is that I feel like I still "baby" my jaw unconsciously. I try not to chew too long or open my mouth too wide. Should I just really try to focus on ignoring TMJ completely and acting as if nothing is going on by using my jaw forcefully when eating and whatever else?
You’ll fall down, you stumble, you land square on your face. And every time that happens, you get back on your feet. You get up just as fast as you can, no matter how many times you need to do it |
| indiana |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 08:23:59
quote:
Originally posted by balto
Hi Indiana, I had tmj and I did got rid of it using mind body approach.
My thought is Conventional medicine and dentist have no cure for tmj, why not just take a chance and treat it as if it is tms. Devote a couple months of your life and go 100% mind body and see if you can defeat it. TMJ is not a life and death disease, conventional approach can wait a couple months.
------------------------
No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience.
Hi Balto,
After having spent a lot of money on splints which did not work and
dealing with indifferent dentists I am off dentists as far as TMJ is concerned. The other alternative is treating it as TMS which I am going to do. My pain is not unbearable but very distracting and the symptoms make me anxious.
So I will treat it as if it were TMS |
| indiana |
Posted - 05/01/2013 : 08:17:35
quote:
Originally posted by GTfan
I just can't seem to get rid of this TMJ pain. For whatever reason, I can't translate what worked in getting rid of my groin pain to my jaw.
Most of the time it doesn't bother me much, but it does just enough to "distract" me. A couple of nights it got the worst that has been in over a year. (Probably because I got rid of my groin pain)
I imagine that I'm just going to have to keep telling myself that this is emotionally induced and not to think of it physically.
You’ll fall down, you stumble, you land square on your face. And every time that happens, you get back on your feet. You get up just as fast as you can, no matter how many times you need to do it
Yes don't I know about that pain. It is distracting and comes and goes. You just never know. Sometimes it is really difficult to be convinced that is only emotional. I know all pain is bad but pain in the head is the worst.
I guess we have to struggle on. |
| balto |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 16:13:43
Hi Indiana, I had tmj and I did got rid of it using mind body approach.
My thought is Conventional medicine and dentist have no cure for tmj, why not just take a chance and treat it as if it is tms. Devote a couple months of your life and go 100% mind body and see if you can defeat it. TMJ is not a life and death disease, conventional approach can wait a couple months.
------------------------
No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
| GTfan |
Posted - 04/30/2013 : 15:12:13
I just can't seem to get rid of this TMJ pain. For whatever reason, I can't translate what worked in getting rid of my groin pain to my jaw.
Most of the time it doesn't bother me much, but it does just enough to "distract" me. A couple of nights it got the worst that has been in over a year. (Probably because I got rid of my groin pain)
I imagine that I'm just going to have to keep telling myself that this is emotionally induced and not to think of it physically.
You’ll fall down, you stumble, you land square on your face. And every time that happens, you get back on your feet. You get up just as fast as you can, no matter how many times you need to do it |
| indiana |
Posted - 04/28/2013 : 02:34:56
Thanks Wavy Soul
The more response i get from TMJ sufferers the more confident I get that there is hope and I can get out of the vicious circle. I am only at the beginning of my TMS journey and I have not felt as good as I did last week in years. Just by ignoring my tooth pain, doing some yoga
and doing a lot of gardening after the long horrible winter here.
|
| indiana |
Posted - 04/28/2013 : 02:27:08
To bryan3000
True. The trouble is that many dentist treat TMJ as a dental problem only because they (understandably) don't want to get involved in the anxiety issue. Tight jaw muscles (due to anxiety) can give dental problems (bite, teeth don't fit together)and then of course you go to the dentist. It is very complex. I read again and again the people have gone from one treatment (physical therapy, chiropractic and many others) to the next without really getting better. So yes I am slowly getting convinced that it is TMS.
I consider myself lucky to be able to go to american/english sites and read english books to get the necessary information. I don't know how people cope with TMJ in this country if they cannot communicate in english. What did people do 50 years ago before the internet for that matter. TMJ/Anxiety/depression was certainly not something you could read about in the media. I think sufferers were considered "having something with their nerves" or "being at bit strange in the head."
Hopefully this stigma regarding mental issues/illness will end soon. We don't need it and have enough on our plate as it is.
I think |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 04/27/2013 : 21:46:25
I haven't read the whole thread but I feel I can truly confirm that TMJ is TMS. I recently had another dental pain round, again started by actual dentistry, like my last one a few years ago, which went away somewhat miraculously by being treated as TMS, even after several dentists prescribed various kinds of splints and redoing of dentistry, etc. etc. .
In the recent round of TMJ, I could feel it coming on, and the "LOOP" starting to swirl, as my brain realized that it now "had me." I had to drag my attention fingers out of the cookie dough of obsessing, looking around for cures, etc. My prior success with massive TMJ after work on 16 teeth, which I thought would kill me, but went away by refusing to believe it was real (see my posts somewhere in the history), gave me confidence to pooh pooh the new round that was starting to happen.
Part of the cure here is to gain confidence in refuting physical explanations, and in my experience I both get confidence from other people, and from my own building experience of pooh-poohing my many and varied TMS scares.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| bryan3000 |
Posted - 04/26/2013 : 16:38:23
Most major anxiety resource sites/books/practitioners recognize TMJ as a very common manifestation of anxiety/panic. (TMS) |
| Dave |
Posted - 04/26/2013 : 08:48:51
quote:
Originally posted by indiana
Should I drop the book written by the dentist...
Yes, it is absolutely essential if you want to treat it as TMS.
quote:
Should I just assume it is TMS, ignore the symptoms and do what you advise to do?
Yes, provided your doctors and dentists have ruled out any serious medical problem.
TMS is clever and will perpetuate the symptoms that have the most potential to grab your attention and make you believe they are due to physical problems. I'm sure Dr. Uppgaard has good intentions, but if you accept his arguments and treatment suggestions, then it is contradictory to TMS. You have to choose one path. |
| indiana |
Posted - 04/26/2013 : 00:11:50
Thanks apace41
I have read the posting about PPD. I have nearly all the symptoms but I do not worry anymore whether it is the one or the other. Anxiety or TMS.
It all started 20 years ago when I painted a ceiling. Looking up triggers the attacks. Also turning my head quickly when lying down or getting up too quickly when lying down. Maybe it is because of my constant stiff neck. I have my doubts whether I will ever get rid of it since I have had it for so long but I can live with it even if it prevents me from many things like f.eks. going to yoga classes.
I have had problems with my balance all my life. As a child I would get sea sick (still do) or car sick very easily. I will now try to ignore it if that is possible when you are sick in the stomach, dizzy and unstable on your feet..... |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 11:05:43
Fine alix, my point being that the vast majority don't need psychotherapy to get over their TMS--only a small minority. Those who are regulars here and can't get through their TMS by reading the books alone, are likely the ones who need the further assist of psychotherapy. And absolutely nothing wrong with that, some people have more embedded psychological baggage, due to life's vicissitudes that are outside their conscious to control. Probably the best time to see a therapist is when one is feeling "great" but who does that? Alix, I wouldn't get too worked up about anything you read here, it's just a message board with thoughts as random as meteorites flitting about space and flaming out on entering the earth's atmosphere. |
| alix |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 10:51:50
tennis tom, I appreciate your continued efforts to bring back threads to Sarno basics. That is very commendable.
But Don and I discussed Sarno theories for 5 minutes and he concluded that I understood it very well. We then moved on to childhood stuff.
It is the same for those 2 authors that are Sarno psychologists and worked with John Sarno directly. The entire book is about digging into childhood events and trauma.
|
| tennis tom |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 10:37:39
Alix, we've discussed this before, I've also seen Don Dubin and he was helpful to me, but unfortunately not for you and your friend. Don Told me I had a good grasp on TMS theory and didn't really need his help, but I chatted with him a few more times before he passed because he was travelling to NYU to meet with Dr. Sarno in person. I'm always interested in news about TMS from direct sources like Don Dubin had and also SteveO and Nicole Sachs.
The truths often are lost, confused or distorted at message boards like here. The best thing for anyone who wants to get "it" is to immerse themselves in books by authors who have accurate TMS knowledge. The bibliography here on the HOME page has many books with accurate TMS info. As with all message boards, they're good for getting new information but anyone can say anything. If one doesn't have some accurate TMS fundamentals under their mental belt, they will be whip-sawed by the erroneous info that "sounds" truthful but isn't--the subconscious will believe the lies it wants to believe to continue their psychosomatic TMS pain as a protective psychological defense mechanism from the even more painful emotional issues their subconscious has decided for them that they're not ready to face.
My point is that the beauty of Dr. Sarno's TMS theory, is it's simplicity and that the vast majority of people with TMS DON't need any further psychotherapy to get it. Unfortunately you did, some people have more baggage to sift through. Many people come here, get it, and are literally able to run off and don't need more then the TMS basics.
I wouldn't judge the effectiveness of Dr. Sarno's theory by those who are regulars here with ongoing TMS symptoms. But, nothing wrong with hanging around here either, beats sitting in the doc's office waiting for the usual RX brush-off. I'm here because I feel the topic is important, I'm an athlete and have always been fascinated with the dynamics of the mindbody interactions.
Cheers,
tt/lsmft |
| alix |
Posted - 04/25/2013 : 09:48:00
tennis tom, I disagree with your assessment of what the Sarno psychotherapy is.
I had psychotherapy with Don Dubin and it was all about uncovering past trauma.
Also please read the book "Pathways to Pain Relief" by Frances Sommer Anderson (Author), Eric Sherman (Author), John E. Sarno MD (Foreword). Anderson and Sherman are Sarno psychologists that worked directly with him. Again the book is all about finding those elusive past events. |
|
|
