| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| cnotes11 |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 06:20:54
I've tried to quit this forum numerous times, I appear unable to. Again its pure frustration that's brought me back. Nothing to lose I guess.
I browsed some of the old threads before posting this. Couldn't find anything quite addressing my question. If someone knows where this has already been discussed please point me in that direction.
Brief context: I'm 27. Had back pain 7-8 years. About 4 years ago this pain became generalized chronic pain in different areas (neck, leg, etc). This segued to intermittent pain and variety of symptoms, ranging from migraines, to nausea, to skin problems, to insomnia. This has had devastating effects on my life personally, emotionally, and financially. I have suffered from depression concurrently with all this. I have many times considered taking my own life. I have gone through exhaustive efforts to try to remedy the situation. Too many things to list really, and I probably can't even remember them all at this point anyway. I feel like I am going crazy about half the time. But keep trying to fight for myself and the hope the some day in the future I will have a life again.
Through all of this about the only thing I can point to that has made much of a difference for me is meditation. I've done some structured programs and some work on my own. I've been at it for over a year. But I keep running into a problem. Hoping some people on here have more experience than me, and can offer insight.
When I meditate.. sometimes notice a reduction in symptoms. i.e. muscles relax, pain dissipates, etc. When I discovered this it was the happiest moment of my last 5 years. I jumped to the conclusion that I'd found my way out. I thought if I just keep doing this symptoms will reduce and reduce down to nothing. That hasn't worked. In fact, it has almost started a kind of ping pong effect. I would meditate, generally feel better, only to have symptoms quickly return. I got frustrated after some time and stopped meditating. Started again, then stopped again, then started again.
I've always started back up again because its about all that I have. I don't know where else to turn. Don't have a lot of energy. Financially cant afford much treatment anymore. So meditation is very important to me. Which leads to my question.
How can I stop approaching meditation from the expectation of wanting it to reduce symptoms? I cannot seem to escape this. Its gotten to the point where it infers, I am meditating... but repetitively thinking is it working? Are the symptoms being reduced? Why isn't it working? I am doing the same as yesterday? Its not working, its going to take me 4 hours to get to sleep tonight.. Today was good meditation, yesterday was bad meditation...And on and on....Seems to be counter productive.
Read quite a bit about mindfulness and meditation. Everything I've read advises to try and drop expectations and distance yourself from value judgments. More about a state of being than whatever you are doing. Accepting what is, not trying to force things, etc. So this mental pattern I am in seems to fly in the face of everything meditation is aimed toward. But I can't seem to help it. I can't get away from my symptoms, they are in my face demanding attention. Anyone else see the conundrum? Anyone else have the same problem? Am I needlessly over analyzing? Am I even making sense!?! It would be nice if some of you would be willing to share your opinions or experiences.
Thank you for reading
Colin
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cnotes11 |
Posted - 04/22/2013 : 02:31:36
Okay |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 04/20/2013 : 16:39:43
First of all, Gigalos, that is a brilliant solution. I want to thank you for setting this up for us. Your example was both informative and entertaining.
Colin, I know what you mean about therapists and trying different approaches. I have tried a lot of things also and, while, I got some relief at first from a lot of them, and I am at least somewhat better and more aware, I have not found a lasting cure. But I keep trying because I believe that God/Universe/Higher Power, whatever you chose to call it, loves me and that my life is not meaningless although it often seems that way. It is this faith that keeps me going. It all boils down ultimately to the fact that a lot of us are ashamed of ourselves, don't like ourselves. Although this notion is completely irrational, deep down this is our basic problem. SteveO said it so perfectly and a lot of other really insightful people have said it too. In my own case, I unconsciously persist in the rumination of my own shame because I have this irrational idea, somewhere in the depths of my unconscious, that I am not a worthy human being and that somehow all the problems in my life are my own fault. If we can't love ourselves, we can't really love anyone else. This idea will cause us physical pain and the pain of abandonment and separation from the rest of humanity. This is the basis of the perfectionist/goodist personality. It is common for people who have been traumatized early in life to turn the rage against themselves. It is also common for sensitive, perfectionist types to direct their inner rage against themselves.
I am a sensitive type also. I think sensitives have a much harder time with TMS. I think SteveO also talks about the sensitive person in his book.
The reason I urge you not to rule out a depth psychology approach is because there are newer, better approaches that incorporate new knowledge and technology of the brain, body and mind/body connection. 2 books that might give you an idea if this could be of help to you are Dr. Alexander's book mentioned above and also a book called "In An Unspoken Voice, How The Body Releases trauma and Restores Goodness" by Dr. Peter Levine. You might also look at Coherence Therapy covered in Dr. Alexander's book. I would read Dr. Alexander's book first because it offers a smorgasbord of both professional and self-help options.
I also have a similar problem, being in a foreign country. I live in Panama. |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 04/20/2013 : 10:32:42
Structure of Pain Mind/Body Connection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3W3sdRbuK8
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hAiZUGz3Rk
*************************
“Living up to an image that you have of yourself or that
other people have of you is inauthentic living – another unconscious role the ego plays.” -- Ekhart Tolle |
| gigalos |
Posted - 04/20/2013 : 09:55:42
Tom, http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8450
cnotes, sorry again for all the commotion, it had its purpose I guess.
I have only been on the board for a couple of months, so I am not able yet to give any better advice. I can only hope that you will find the way up again with the help of others on this forum. In the past I had a period I wanted to kill myself out of desperation, it is difficult but you need to keep grasping at what might look to you as straws only, I have the feeling one of those straws will eventually turn out to be a way to improve your situation. Good luck to you. |
| cnotes11 |
Posted - 04/20/2013 : 07:39:59
Thank you all for separating the conflict and ideological argument(s) among forum members from your answers to my post. Also thank you for taking the time to answer, it sincerely means a lot to me.
@Ace yes your making sense, unfortunately what your describing is not easy.
@Shawnsmith I don't watch news either. Dropped the politics as well. Guaranteed ways to make yourself more tense, angry, fearful, etc. Talk politics or watch the news.
@catmac I will send him a message. He seems highly regarded around here.
@pspa yes I tried EFT, on my own and with 2 different practitioners. I didn't make a big impact for me. It was disappointing because I heard such great things about it prior. Also affirmations, did them for a year. Then just got sick of how touchy feely it felt, and seeing no tangible result to my efforts.
@worldtrv I have my own qualms with with Sarno, but generally think hes right enough. I don't want to debate it though either. Meditation center in my area? I don't know, the city I am from in the states certainly would have this. But I am currently in China. I came here to research TCM, and see if it could help me in any way. Maybe I can look into it when I go home. Although in the past I've also lived at a health center... whose main focus was mindfulness, meditation, and emotional processing. While there I did group meditation often, I found it distracting. But maybe I dismissed it too quick. I dont know.
Yes you are correct in saying that I pretty well understand the theory but fall down in practice. Like you say its simple, but also very hard. And I am already currently meditating 2x per day (for the last 2 months). One could easily answer my question by saying.. its okay just return to the breathe or its okay continue to practice. But I am unable in my mind, and through my daily experience, to stop desperately wanting relief. It feels like my life cannot continue this way, and hence I am unable to divorce these thoughts and desires from my practice. Whereby it feels like the meditation I am doing isn't as "effective" (I know there are logical problems with describing it this way)as it could be. Hence my question, which I fear doesn't really have an answer.
@chickenbone Its probably safe to say I have a more difficult case too. I think I had a relatively healthy childhood, but've always been a highly sensitive person. So maybe the little traumas I experienced where enough to create this ****storm I am currently in. I guess speculating in this vain is pointless because you will never know where the content of your subconscious comes from or why it is how it is. By "qualified person" you mean TMS therapist? I've come close to trying this in the past. Never have, would you mind breaking down for me why you believe this helps "difficult" cases? Specifics would help, because many things I've read make me feel as simply talking to a therapist is scratching about on the surface.
"Try to take this suffering as both a warning and an opportunity to know yourself for the first time in your life." -- I certainly have tried. The past 2 years my sole focus in life was doing whatever it took to get over this. I beat my head against the wall until I came to realize I couldn't force it. I tried to do less, and get on with life. Couldn't ignore the symptoms. I can't get on with life. I've read many times similar statements. They all just sound hollow to me. Being in pain/depressed trumps anything resembling a silver lining every single time. Where, myopic though it may be, I look around at the wreckage of my life and think this is pointless. Theres no lesson here. I guess I was just born to suffer.
I will note those books and take a look. Access might be an issue as I am in China. And to be honest my mind balks at the thought of starting another doctor/self help book. But what choice do I have right? I can kill myself or keep trying. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 04/20/2013 : 07:38:10
quote:
Originally posted by gigalos
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
quote:
Originally posted by gigalos
Dedicate a thread to him or his negativity in general and just post the shortcut in future threads if you need to make a point. See it as pointing to his picture hanging behind the bar with a short statement beneath it "don't let this guy pull you down".
That's an excellent idea! I'm a internet Luddite, you're an IT professional I believe, I nominate you to do it.
Thanks,
tt/lsmft
Thanks Tom, althought I am not an IT pro, consider it done! "Take it outside"
If you have anything to add, please do it there.
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8450
Thanks for following through so swiftly Gigalos! Just for demonstration purposes, let's say I say some so and so is full of ****, piss and ****, how would the honorable chap direct me to continue the discussion at the "Take it Outside Thread"?
Thanks,
tt/lsmft |
| gigalos |
Posted - 04/20/2013 : 07:16:20
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
quote:
Originally posted by gigalos
Dedicate a thread to him or his negativity in general and just post the shortcut in future threads if you need to make a point. See it as pointing to his picture hanging behind the bar with a short statement beneath it "don't let this guy pull you down".
That's an excellent idea! I'm a internet Luddite, you're an IT professional I believe, I nominate you to do it.
Thanks,
tt/lsmft
Thanks Tom, althought I am not an IT pro, consider it done! "Take it outside"
If you have anything to add, please do it there.
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8450 |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 04/20/2013 : 05:58:33
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
Not caring about one,s fellow human beings doesnt sound like a recipe for health to me.
How is feeding oneself with a daily diet of lies, sensationalisms and distortions a demonstration of caring about one's fellow human beings? How is viewing news which is consciously designed to disturb and keep viewers in a constant state of agitation and fear going to help you get better?
*************************
“Living up to an image that you have of yourself or that
other people have of you is inauthentic living – another unconscious role the ego plays.” -- Ekhart Tolle |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 20:52:27
Colin have you tried eft or faster eft some claim they help |
| alix |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 20:40:38
I understand. I do follow the news but I am not as informed 24/7 as I used to be. I read the news in the morning and try to leave it at that. I am not posting on political/news forums anymore for example which was a useless addiction for me. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 20:30:14
Alix i was referring to shawns post about not knowing anything about the world. |
| alix |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 20:26:55
pspa, your thoughts come back in a millisecond when/if needed. But I can for example go buy groceries and not have a single thought. It feels great. If you can lower that incessant mind chatter just by a few %, it makes a huge difference. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 20:09:57
Not caring about one,s fellow human beings doesnt sound like a recipe for health to me. |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 19:57:01
I like to refer to it as lack of reacting and letting go as opposed to doing meditation. I feel a lot of times when someone feels like they have to do meditation they are trying too hard. The real truth is you want to basically do nothing. You want to stop your bad habits as opposed to actually doing something. I don't even call it meditation bc I am not really focusing what I am doing in the present. I just have to NOT PROJECT MYSELF INTO THE FUTURE. You see the healing comes from stopping the bad habits. There are many healthy people who are not meditating all day. The key point is they don't have these intense strain producing habits that break their bodies down. I can think of the future and be ok as long as I don't strain about it. I hope this makes sense. |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 19:39:07
C-notes, I'll address just your questions, not the debate about Sarno that followed, except to say, I read the articles Spirit posted and I actually agree with some of it, not all. I too have wondered why Sarno hasn't mentioned the newer theories of pain, eg, from Lorimer Moseley of Australia, which make a lot of sense. The 2nd posted article in the Skeptic mag, I doubt the author has done more than skimmed Sarno because he misused the term, "symptom imperative" several times.
Okay c-notes, do you have a meditation center of some kind in your area? I mention this because I belong to one and I find meditating with a group very valuable and a lot easier than trying to go it alone, especially in the beginning.
You mention that you are already aware of what you have read in books about not trying to force certain feelings or reactions from meditation, but just to observe whatever comes up. Correct, but it sounds like you are not really doing that because you are judging and trying to make go away the bad feelings that sometimes come up or whether you have had a "good" or a "bad" meditation. Yes, it is very difficult adopt a neutral stance when you badly want a particular outcome! It takes lots of practice to have it be okay whatever happens and just adopt a tone of curiousity. "Touch and go" is a phrase you can remember for how to deal with difficult emotions.
Finally, I know from personal experience that like anything else you want to become expert at, it takes practice. Mat time. I would experiment with meditating every single day, at least once a day for a month with absolutely no expectations, if possible. Don't allow yourself to make a judgment on its effectiveness until after 30 days.
It might help to be aware that meditation is confoundingly extremely difficult and easy at the same time. It seems easy to simply sit and breathe, observing what comes up. Try it! It is rare to go more than a minute or two (usually only several seconds) without a smorgasbord of thoughts and emotions to arise, most half-consciously, and this is completely natural! The point is not to get hung up on them, but to return to the breath.
If you don't have a meditation group in your city, check Meetup.com for one or start your own. Being with a group has other values too. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 18:51:29
quote:
Originally posted by gigalos
Dedicate a thread to him or his negativity in general and just post the shortcut in future threads if you need to make a point. See it as pointing to his picture hanging behind the bar with a short statement beneath it "don't let this guy pull you down".
That's an excellent idea! I'm a internet Luddite, you're an IT professional I believe, I nominate you to do it.
Thanks,
tt/lsmft |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 18:36:59
I never watch or read the news anymore -- absolutely nothing, and I mean absolute in the most absolute sense. I don't even own a TV or a cell phone and only visit a few websites. If some major event happens someone has to tell me about it or I will overlook it. I found out about the Boston Marathon tragedy the day after and I had to ask the person who told me what the details were as I had no idea. I have zero idea of what is taking place in the world. I choose to not poison my mind with the news as it only adds to my pain and stress. Why would anyone in their right mind want to do that to themselves? CNN, Fox News, New York Times, etc., all lies and distortions of reality whose goal is to keep viewers / readers in a state of high tension. Stay away from that.
As for being in a meditative state 24/7, regardless of what you are otherwise doing, I just cannot possibly imagine how that could be possible, but then again I may be proven wrong.
*************************
“Living up to an image that you have of yourself or that
other people have of you is inauthentic living – another unconscious role the ego plays.” -- Ekhart Tolle |
| alix |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 17:21:46
Is it what you are doing Balto? Are you in the now most of the time?
I am trying to be in the now as much as possible and that helps a lot. It eradicated the fear of the pain for me. Much more than 2 hours of meditation... followed by turning on the TV and watching CNN. |
| balto |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 17:10:20
cnotes, there are many books on the subject of meditation out there. Lots of them are free too. Just google them in pdf file types. Lots of them.
a couple hours a day is not enough. Meditation is a life long goal, you have to live it 24 hours a day every day. The books just teach you the technique but you have to live it all the time, you have to be IN THE NOW. The goal of meditation is to give you a skill to direct your mind, your thinking back to the NOW, to take back control of your thought.
If you brush your teeth, your mind is fill with thought about how to brush, brush the upper, the lower teeth, brush inside, brush outside... all about your teeth. Sound simple but can you do it? You would find that your mind is every where. Oh my back hurt. Oh where is my laptop, I have to meet with my boss today, did I turn off the stove.... You see, if you can keep your mind totally focus on the task at hand, focus on your study when you study. Focus on your food, enjoy it's taste when you're having dinner. Focus on the movie when you're watching movie.... just focus on the exactly thing that you doing, nothing else. Can you do it? Keep practice, keep doing it. The goal is to have total control of your thought. Don't let it wander around aimlessly, that is when it create troublesome thoughts or scary thought.
Practice a a couple hours but keep the concept in mind and doing it every second of the day. One day it will become a skill that would save your life.
Hope this help.
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No, I don't know everything. I'm just here to share my experience. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 04/19/2013 : 16:38:32
quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
The reason people like TT and pspa123, as well as Dr. James Alexander push back against Rikr is out of concern for new people on this forum. We know that Rikr is terrified to confront his own unconscious daemons, so he wants everyone else to be terrified to confront their's, to the detriment of all of us as a society.
Thank you, that is exactly it! |
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