| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sylvia |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 06:10:32
I fear the collapse, so therefore I have been trying and hoping to get well without it. Hoping to incrementally move forward, pacing, a little at a time so that I don't bring on a collapse. For me a collapse is month upon month of being bedridden. You know where this has gotten me? NOWHERE. NONE THE BETTER.
I see that this fear/terror is hampering me. TMS has got me in a stranglehold because of the fear of physicality.
And Dr. Sarno said The treatment program rests on two pillars.
1 The acquisition of knowledge, of insight into the nature of the disorder.
2 The ability to ACT on that knowledge thereby change the brains behavior.
#2 is the problem for me. As long as I dicker around I won’t have to get bedbound being much worse. And then again, I wont be able to take my life back and fight my way out of this habitual response of chronic fatigue unless I challenge and not pull back.
Time to get MAD instead of self-pitying (especially if the collapse comes) let it come, I'll keep going anyways.
Others have done it and I can too.
Is this the only way to put Sarno’s second guidline into action?
To do battle like SteveO did in his book, which he was virtually bedbound by his back pain. So it is what I can relate to as far as the fatigue I endure. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 04/03/2013 : 11:22:38
Thanks, Sylvia. I will check out Abraham Low and thanks for the links.
|
| Sylvia |
Posted - 04/03/2013 : 06:39:57
Boys are silly and have silly fights.
They fight over Anxiety purists vs Sarno think psychological, feel the feelings.
Know what? It's ALL GOOD. No side necessary to take and fight.
Silly silly boys. |
| eric watson |
Posted - 04/03/2013 : 06:03:19
all these guys are my heros
I know I might not say it much
but I suffered for over 20 years
with anxiety and extreme panic attacks
if you want knowledge these guys above
truly are the best |
| Sylvia |
Posted - 04/03/2013 : 03:22:45
[quote]Originally posted by bryan3000
In my readings here, the three people who have not only healed to the fullest extent, but have also been the best teachers of their methods are...
Hillbilly - Balto - Ace
Now, there are many others who were here before my time, or just don't post as much any more. So, no slight on them... these are just three I'm picking
to illustrate a point.
If you look deeply at what all three of these people primarily talk about, it's not digging deeply into repressed emotions or trying to chase some kind of elusive monster in our heads. What they all talk about primarily is:
1. Losing fear.
2. Taking action.
Ah but you left off two important people
Steve Ozanich of the Great Pain Deception
and
Nicole Saches of Journal Speak
These are Sarno purists, not anxiety purists.
And Losing Fear
And Taking Action
applies just the same.
Nicole doesn't post much and she doesn't need to, her book and video are plenty.
SteveO has posted in the past (guess who is going to make a post the Wisdom of Steve Ozanich today : ) but his book is plenty. And he does post plenty in Tms wiki.
|
| Sylvia |
Posted - 04/03/2013 : 03:13:38
chickenbone,
Do you know Abraham Low's book Mental Health Through Will Training? In my opinion all things Abraham Low is gonna help you.
http://www.lowselfhelpsystems.org/
They have phone meeting for those not near in person meetings.
Download the sampling of tools and terms here and order the book
http://www.lowselfhelpsystems.org/system/recovery-international-tools.asp
The most relevant thing I can say is
CONTROL YOUR MUSCLES meaning find a comfortable position and do not move, control you muscles, because you can control your muscles.
As for Claire Weekes she would have no qualms knocking you out pharmaceutically. There is no shame in that. It would be like a reboot, just like shock treatments. Can't remember where I read his with Claire Weekes but I know that I did.
I once had terrible insomnia. I was put on a drug that worked for me when sleep drugs did not. It was an antidepressant called Remeron, and I slept good every night, and then I put on a ton of weight, and then had to go off the drug, and for me it was easy. And I could then sleep on my own without the drug. Reboot.
If I were you chickenbone, I'd read all things Abraham Low. I'd take it all to heart, and make a study of it.
|
| alix |
Posted - 04/03/2013 : 00:38:16
For me the radical way to stop the fear was simply to stop thinking. As soon as I was worried my symptoms would come back or as a TMS equivalent, stepping out of that anxiety generating stream of thoughts did it every time.
Tolle has a short clip that explains it very well and is a pleasure to watch:
http://youtu.be/dTFDfR47dl4
In fact, I crave the state of being in the now. As soon as I drive somewhere or have to do something boring, I just stop thinking. |
| bryan3000 |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 22:17:01
In my readings here, the three people who have not only healed to the fullest extent, but have also been the best teachers of their methods are...
Hillbilly - Balto - Ace
Now, there are many others who were here before my time, or just don't post as much any more. So, no slight on them... these are just three I'm picking
to illustrate a point.
If you look deeply at what all three of these people primarily talk about, it's not digging deeply into repressed emotions or trying to chase some kind of elusive monster in our heads. What they all talk about primarily is:
1. Losing fear.
2. Taking action.
Now given, each has their own approach... and all offer great advice. But the core of what they used to heal and what they are attempting to teach the rest of us revolves around losing fear of the symptoms. It's no coincidence that two of these three posters simply refer to TMS as anxiety, which is also my firm belief. (That there really is little or no difference.)
I've made the statement before, but I've yet to read a single poster here who I wouldn't call an anxiety personality. I've been immersed in the study of anxiety/panic for several years now as part of my own attempts to heal from nervous breakdown and can without hesitation say that the primary cause of all of my aches, pains and panic attacks has been anxiety, i.e. worry... i.e. fear. (And I'll put my symptom list up against anyone here. I've literally had so many manifestations of pain and symptoms it's just silly.)
Fear is the single common component that we ALL share here. Back pain or panic attacks. Same thing. One person's genetic make-up and upbringing leads it to come out as one... or the other. (Or both for us lucky types!)
Sarno or Weekes, pick your healer... they're saying the same thing at the end of the day. While Sarno speaks at length about repressed emotions... is RX is still exactly the same as Weekes. Face, float, accept, resume normal life... lose fear of the symptoms.
I'm not in a position to teach. I've still got my own work to do. But, I've progressed far enough to know that TMS/anxiety are both kept alive by FEAR.
|
| chickenbone |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 19:50:25
Thanks, Art. I appreciate your insights. I am going to really try to not let the fear and upset overtake me when I can't fall asleep. I think that if I can just see that it is not so bad, I can get over it.
|
| art |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 18:15:01
quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
Speaking of fear, my worst fear is of having a mental breakdown brought on by lack of sleep. Since, I got rid of my pain, I am having a terrible time sleeping and anxiety. Often without some type of med, I won't sleep all night. I think this fear stems from 2 incidences. One when I was a child and the babysitter was abusing me each time I wet my pants or the bed (I was about 2 and a half). So I was so frightened that I used to force myself to stay awake so I would not have an accident. This was my way of trying to stay safe. The other incident happened after my first husband died of cancer 25 years ago. The whole time he was sick, I just lived to take care of his needs. It was like I did not even exist. I was so exhausted after he died and strung out that I did not sleep for almost 3 weeks, only maybe an hour here and there. Finally, I ended up in the hospital, I went voluntarily because I had completely lost my ability to concentrate at work, so this way I could go on short term sick leave. Anyway, this is how I got on antidepressants and sleeping pills for awhile. I have taken them on and off ever since. When I become frightened that something like this could happen again, I start taking them again for sleep. I am so afraid of ending up in the hospital and given drugs. That is why I am so fearful of not sleeping. 25 years ago, if I could have slept, I wo
uld not have had to go in the hospital and be treated by Psychiatrists.
Chickenbone,
My sympathies. I completely identify with anxiety syndromes that feed on themselves. These are generally fear of fear situations...usually the primary worry is that the fear will be damaging to your health, that are very difficult to break out of...
IN my experience, you can't think your way out of these. The only cure is to stop the anxiety snowball from rolling down the hill by refusing to think. Every time you feel afraid, stop thinking and work on focusing on your breath and relaxing all your muscles. You can't feel fear if your body is relaxed. Sounds simplistic, but its' true...
You can beat this chickenbone. Don't despair.. The human brain, fortunately has great plasticity. JUst as fear can be learned, it can also be unlearned... |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 15:28:17
Hi Sylvia, I thought of "chicken****", but realized I might be thrown off the forum. Ha Ha.
pspa123, You are right, I have just gotten myself into a tizzy with the fear and catastrophic thoughts. I need to find a way to stop that. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 11:40:18
quote:
Originally posted by chickenbone
Thanks, pspa123, your response make me feel better. I think you are probably right. If I am worried about a breakdown, it probably will not happen. So sorry to hear about how hard this is on your wife and what this must be doing to her. And there are those who tell you not to be negative!
Maybe if I just go with it to the wall. Say ok, bring it on, let me see how bad this can really get and how bad can it be. Then when I just feel awful, but nothing really bad happens, I will be in a position to not care. This is what got be over the pain and symptoms.
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
The wisest line in all of poetry, in my opinion, is from T.S. Eliot's Ash Wednesday -- "Teach us to care and not to care." Sometimes, one has to learn not to care. Maybe in your case it will be helpful. And I don't know your situation, but my sense is that your fear of insomnia may indeed be perpetuating it. |
| Sylvia |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 11:16:55
To EVERYONE thank you for your really great responses, this is why I got a friend to coach me. This is me trying something different.
I really need a hand up. Is that really so wrong?
Hey your name may be chickenbone, but I could rename myself chickenshiit!
The worst that can happen.. is I DONT do this, I keep inching along to nowhere.
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| chickenbone |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 10:48:41
Thanks, pspa123, your response make me feel better. I think you are probably right. If I am worried about a breakdown, it probably will not happen. So sorry to hear about how hard this is on your wife and what this must be doing to her. And there are those who tell you not to be negative!
Maybe if I just go with it to the wall. Say ok, bring it on, let me see how bad this can really get and how bad can it be. Then when I just feel awful, but nothing really bad happens, I will be in a position to not care. This is what got be over the pain and symptoms.
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
|
| Mom2two |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 10:35:40
I know that many people say to not fight the TMS symptom...but on many occasions, it has helped me. I have gotten, mad...quite ticked off actually and gone on mini-rampages...while alone....just talking out loud to myself, and complaining and venting about my back pain...which lead me to other insights. There is something about writing, or spreading out loud truthfully that is freeing. I got so mad at myself for getting back into the routine of going to see a chiropractor, which was not doing anything for me...and I just said...F it! I am done with her! I haven't been back since :). I have gotten angry at my pain and yelled at it....and it has gone away. It is not something I planned, but just happened like an overwhelming firestorm of emotion. I always had breakthroughs then. Perhaps because at that moment, the anger was stronger than the fear.
What is the worst that can happen? You have many thoughts on that I am sure. Just remember...nothing is permanent, and considering all you have been through...you can get through this too. |
| Dave |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 10:09:04
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvia
Time to get MAD instead of self-pitying (especially if the collapse comes) let it come, I'll keep going anyways.
The fact that you still believe a "collapse" may come means you have not really committed 100% to the diagnosis.
I know that you believe you have, but you still live in a state of fear, and that fear itself provides the distraction. Essentially you are letting TMS win this battle.
It is not as if you can abolish the fear overnight, but you need to try your best to act as if you do not have that fear. When you find yourself worrying about the "collapse" that may come, instead try to convince yourself that it will not come because you will not let it. If the symptoms escalate you will simply accept it as a benign signal to address your emotional health.
So, I believe you are on the right track when you say "time to get MAD instead of self-pitying." You will not get anywhere if you continue to bask in negative thoughts and allow the symptoms to feed your fears. Getting MAD at the symptoms is not a bad technique. At the same time force yourself to think about what is going on in your life that may be leading you to repress negative feelings. Try to discover what those feelings might be. And "tell your brain" you are going to think about those feelings despite its attempts to distract you from them.
You need to find a way to recondition your thoughts and behavior in reaction to the symptoms. What you have been doing is not working if you still fear a "collapse" and pity yourself. Try something different. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 09:46:49
CB if this has been going on for some time, you almost certainly are not going to have a breakdown, I don't think there is any reason to believe it is cumulative. It sounds more like you have just hit a constant state of fatigue/exhaustion, which awful though it is is probably stable. My wife has something similar -- she is so completely burned out from taking care of our disabled son, her sick father, etc. that she just cannot relax, and also despite the alarm clock lives in fear of not waking up in time. Vicious circle.
I hope you find some relief somehow, but to the extent a secondary fear of mental breakdown is contributing to it, that seems unfounded despite your experience many years ago (easy to say, I know). I have been through periods of insomnia or lack of sleep myself (my disabled son did not sleep for years) and it just is indescribably horrible.
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| chickenbone |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 09:34:28
Hi Pspa123, yes I have tried all the usual stuff and more. I have tried melatonin several times and it seems to have no effect. I have had some luck with EFT, but it just reduces my anxiety but does not help me sleep. Occasionally mindfullness meditation works, but it seems like after a few night my unconscious decides to ruin that effort by causing me to have asthma symptoms and a plugged up nose so that the breathing exercises don't work. these symptoms I don't worry about, are just part of the TMS, and don't last, but they do ruin my efforts in the moment.
I think a lot of the problem is that I have relied upon some sort of med for so long (at least as a placebo) for sleep that my brain is looking for it. I also just need to get over the sleep anxiety and fear.
Often what happens is that I get in bed and am exhausted. I use mindfulness mediation and/or EFT to relax and get ready for sleep. Just as I am drifting off, something from deep inside my brain startles me and wakes me up. It is not a thought, but like a feeling of panic, like something really bad will happen if I fall asleep. Then I have profuse sweating. It is like the start of a panic attack, but just enough to awaken me. Now I can't get back to sleep and I feel like my limbic system (which is probably where this comes from) is on high alert. I try the same relaxation exercises again and can get somewhat relaxed, but still cannot fall asleep. Then about 5am, I fall asleep from sheer exhaustion. I usually cannot sleep past 7am and wake up with some panic but manage to get my act together. Often I do not feel well during the day. No matter how tired I am, the same things happen the next night. I do have some nights when I am so tired that I do just fall asleep on my own. Like what Sylvia said about having such fear of ending up bedridden, I have the same fear of having a mental breakdown and ending up in a situation where I will be plastered with drugs, knowing I will need to go through the agony of getting myself off them. I am terrified of any type of addiction. |
| gailnyc |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 09:03:07
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
I know some say just not caring whether you sleep or not is the answer but that is easier said than done when one is exhausted.
Yes, but it's what you must cultivate if you wish to truly sleep well and be well.
Let the moment in. If you feel terrible in the moment, you must let that moment in anyway. Fighting it only makes things worse. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 08:51:54
CB I assume you have tried the usual stuff like having a cool room, very dark, avoiding stimulation late at night, etc.? Have you tried low dose melatonin, it works well for me even though some would claim it's a placebo? I know some say just not caring whether you sleep or not is the answer but that is easier said than done when one is exhausted. |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 08:43:27
Speaking of fear, my worst fear is of having a mental breakdown brought on by lack of sleep. Since, I got rid of my pain, I am having a terrible time sleeping and anxiety. Often without some type of med, I won't sleep all night. I think this fear stems from 2 incidences. One when I was a child and the babysitter was abusing me each time I wet my pants or the bed (I was about 2 and a half). So I was so frightened that I used to force myself to stay awake so I would not have an accident. This was my way of trying to stay safe. The other incident happened after my first husband died of cancer 25 years ago. The whole time he was sick, I just lived to take care of his needs. It was like I did not even exist. I was so exhausted after he died and strung out that I did not sleep for almost 3 weeks, only maybe an hour here and there. Finally, I ended up in the hospital, I went voluntarily because I had completely lost my ability to concentrate at work, so this way I could go on short term sick leave. Anyway, this is how I got on antidepressants and sleeping pills for awhile. I have taken them on and off ever since. When I become frightened that something like this could happen again, I start taking them again for sleep. I am so afraid of ending up in the hospital and given drugs. That is why I am so fearful of not sleeping. 25 years ago, if I could have slept, I would not have had to go in the hospital and be treated by Psychiatrists. |
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