| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/30/2013 : 15:38:46
I have been reading James' book, and was really struck by his take on negativity in his chapter "Getting Better." I will quote a couple of lines, and hopefully it won't be too out of context. This approach certainly seems at odds with some of the approaches others advocate if I am understanding it correctly, but perhaps James can comment.
"The other option to denial and repression is to allow for the reality of negative feelings, experiences, thoughts and perceptions. As stated in Chapter 6, studies in neuroscience confirm that allowing space for negativity is associated with decreased neural traffic between the pre-frontal cortex and the nucleus accumbens, and with less chronic pain...
The suggestion is that we would be well served by consciously acknowledging the negative aspects of our reality (not generating them), rather than attempting to force a cultivated positivity. Actitivies which deliberately cultivate positivity, such as writing down your positive traits, regularly expressing gratitude and complimenting others, are likely to improve your mood via strengthening the neural connections between your pre-frontal cortex and nucleus accumbens. And these neural changes are also more likely to make you vulnerable to chronic pain...
The very act of allowing the negative, of no longer attempting to force positivity in the face of bad circumstances or a traumatic past, is likely to create the brain changes which Baliki and his colleagues have demonstrated are related to a decreased risk of chronic pain." |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| gailnyc |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 09:00:56
quote:
Originally posted by Dr James Alexander
i think people are largely perceiving me correctly. My suggestion is that (like the ACT people are saying, and Gabor Mate), we need to allow space for negativity- not that we need to cultivate and indulge in it. To step on negativity quickly will only drive it 'underground', but not make it go away.
James
This is a lot like Claire Weekes's suggestion to "accept" feelings of depression rather than to try to stamp them out by becoming manic with activity. |
| Peregrinus |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 20:26:10
PSPA:
Thanks for cutting to the chase!
After reading many posts here as well as reading the words of some Mind-Body gurus I suspect that negative thoughts and suppression of unpleasant memories arise because of psychological conflicts which involve, for the most part, a challenge to one’s identity. Tolle more or less says this explicitly. Ozanich seems to agree. Challenges to our identity, an identity which may be adopted and false, are difficult to accept and one’s reaction will be negative and if sufficiently severe, suppressed. Coming to an understanding of who we think we are can release us from this negativity and its consequences. Negativity and suppression are both important but not the root of the problem.
I suspect that suppression can lead to secondary effects such as fear, anger, and anxiety which in turn lead to TMS. I don’t know how this kind of TMS can be handled without getting to the source of these secondary effects.
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| pspa123 |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 20:24:58
James I am only one anecdote but there were times in my life when I was a fountain of negative emotion but I was pretty good at experiencing it and expressing it, much better than I am now, and those were also times when I had virtually no physical pain to speak of. Was it just that I was younger? I doubt it, I wasn't THAT young. |
| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 20:02:53
tmsjptc- that is the sense i would make of your grandma's current behaviour. The conscious mind is losing its grip, and stuff thats been at a less than conscious level (eg. meanness) now has a chance to emerge. I dare say there are neurological correlates for all this, but ive never looked into it.
pspa123- as you've been reading my book, you'll know my answer to that querie. Yes, i think we have pain because we have suppressed/repressed our negative emotions- and i think cultures like our's are particularly good at doing this, and thats why we see more chronic pain in them than in more emotionally expressive cultures (who also live with high levels of stress, eg. at the mercy of floods, famines, civil wars, bandits, no economic certainty, etc). But, in terms of looking for a synthesis, what i can offer is the following- the human organism in its social/political/physical context is much more complex than any one model can appreciate or depict. As such, it is quite likely that all approaches will be somewhat true/untrue for populations in general, and for any individual in particular. It comes back to being 'horses for courses', so i would never suggest that any one approach must be the answer for all people. The challenge is for any one individual to work out for themselves, from the available approaches, what makes intuitive sense for them, and to go with that. What is the right balance of approaches for any person? The mix is likely to be different for different people. I dont see there as being a problem with this. I had a client once who didnt get better with my approach, but did recover from chronic pain via standard CBT in a pain management program- surprised the hell out of me, but it was a very pleasant surprise, and i was very happy for him. Does the CBT he used need to be synthesised with my approach? It may make it less confusing for people seeking help, but it may also render approaches less effective if they lose what makes them different from each other.
And it just occurred to me- the TMS approach is in fact a synthesis already. When people first come across it in books, it is a purely cognitive approach- just wrestling with ideas, and working out how they may apply to yourself. For many people, this is sufficient- they get over their pain as a result as it triggers changes within them. But, for others, it is not sufficient, and they may then need to consider therapy- at which point, what type of therapy is likely to be helpful? I have tried to answer this question on many occasions here; and still, again, it comes down to being horses for courses. What works for one may not work for another. So, i think it is valid to have a range of ideas presented in a forum like this, so people can make an informed decision about the way to progress.
James |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 18:05:32
I want to repeat my comment above in case anyone wants to comment on it directly, because I think it is really at the heart of many of the debates/discussions here.
To me this is the essential question. Do we have pain because of our negative emotions, or do we have pain because we have suppressed/ repressed our negative emotions. Although i am someone who likes to find common ground or synthesis where possible I think different people just have divergent views.
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| tmsjptc |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 17:42:29
I haven't dealt with anyone directly myself that has had dementia, so maybe I'm guessing as to a correlation that isn't even there, but I heard something odd which is related to "negativity".
My mom was just telling me how my 93 yr old grandmother is doing. She is getting "dementia" (as the care-giver in the home explained it). My mom said that she is just mean now. She said the care-giver explained that she sees this all of the time. People who have always been nice become mean and vice versa. Interesting though is that my grandma isn't having pain (which she had for much of her life).
I couldn't help but think this had something to do with her conscious and rationale mind losing its grip and her unconscious feelings and emotions being able to come to the surface more easily.
If I'm way out in left field, just say so. But, I thought this to be an odd coincidence and wanted to mention it.
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| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 16:59:11
i think people are largely perceiving me correctly. My suggestion is that (like the ACT people are saying, and Gabor Mate), we need to allow space for negativity- not that we need to cultivate and indulge in it. To step on negativity quickly will only drive it 'underground', but not make it go away. Australia is also a culture where being positive and optimistic is almost a national obligation. There are many benefits to this- we tend to get things done, rather than just sit around and feel miserable; and we tend to be emotionally resilient. It is good for our mood to be positive. However, neuroscience research has revealed that the patterns of brain arousal which go along with deliberately engineering a positive mood (increased neural activity between the prefrontal cortex and the neucleus accumbens) is the exact same neural pattern which goes along with an increased risk of chronic pain. (yes, brain imaging studies are far from perfect, but i think they are a little more scientific and reliable than phrenology- not free of problems, but still informative). From this, i conclude that working working working at maintaining a positive mood, while good for your mood, is likely to be increasing the risk of chronic pain. I suspect that in reality, like most things, it is a matter of balance. Being in a very low mood for a long time, without trying to do anything to lift yourself out of it, may very well increase the risk of chronic pain as well (cant see how it would help). But maintaining a cultivated positivity (as a personality trait), from both a depth-psychology and a neuroscience point of view appears to be associated with more vulnerability to chronic pain.
I would never suggest that people need to therefore cultivate negativity- only that many people may benefit from being more real about the existing negatives in their lives. Acknowledge them, create space for them (feel the sadness or pain), try to do something about them- whatever is needed; but firstly, see the negatives for what they are and be real about them. In my country, this is almost tantamount to heresy or treason. Europeans and Brits seem to have always allowed more space for it- and they dont experience as much chronic pain as Aussies or Americans. Is that just a fluke?
This is discussed more in my recent article for The Neuropsychotherapist (go to www.drjamesalexander-psychologist.com -->About the Book --> Addendum --> emotional style and chronic pain)
James |
| Peregrinus |
Posted - 03/31/2013 : 10:56:52
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
"The other option to denial and repression is to allow for the reality of negative feelings, experiences, thoughts and perceptions. As stated in Chapter 6, studies in neuroscience confirm that allowing space for negativity is associated with decreased neural traffic between the pre-frontal cortex and the nucleus accumbens, and with less chronic pain...
Brain scans are the new phrenology. This quote sounds like something RIK or ALLSPRIT or whatever his name is would say. |
| bryan3000 |
Posted - 03/31/2013 : 09:43:18
Yeah, I hate jargon. Lol!
There are some simple videos and audio links. I plan to make a thread soon. To me, it seems very basic and straight forward. But like most of this, simple does not mean easy. Lol! |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/31/2013 : 09:35:40
Bryan thanks i have done some reading about ACT and James has a nice summary in his book but when I read the more detailed version I seemed to get lost in the jargon. As i now recall a lot of hyphenated terms like something written by Kant. |
| bryan3000 |
Posted - 03/31/2013 : 01:31:21
Pspa,
The ACT stuff I mentioned is largely based on this. It involves sitting with negative energies (pain/suffering) and listening to them to allow them passage and to desensitize the fear of them. The theory there is that experiencing the full range of emotion kills the fear/suppression cycle.
I have to say it's helped me some. |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 03/30/2013 : 23:58:00
Alix, I have some guilt also about people I left behind in the US. My husband and I constantly watch and read news about the US. My husband is the worst one for that. I can stay away from it, but he can't. It doesn't bother him, but it does bother me.
As far as Tolle, I think most people should only think of it as a nice ideal for human beings to achieve eventually - enlightenment, but probably not for 99.9% of humans in the here and now. Maybe in the year 5,000 AD. Maybe never. People need more modest goals to avoid total frustration. However, I think people should read him to get all they can from it. Like Dr. Alexander says, you will never achieve enlightenment by simply reading Tolle. The same thing must happen in your brain that happened in his. It is not spread from person to person so easily. |
| alix |
Posted - 03/30/2013 : 22:16:30
chickenbone, great post. It is tough to emigrate. I also felt guilty for leaving my family and my country. Until a year ago, I was still following the news and politics from back "home". That was really not helping and adding to the strain. Part of this TMS journey has allowed me to accept and move on. Nobody forced me to move. It is what it is.
pspa, I am so sorry. I am sure that ego-less Eckhart would not know what to tell you and would loose his cool if he were to be confronted to a situation like yours. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/30/2013 : 20:49:46
CB I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying. In my own case (severely disabled son) it has caused me more problems than it has solved to keep trying to put a positive spin on it, or to deny my negative emotions, or to tell myself there is no such thing as the past or the future (sure, Eckhart), etc. On the other hand, I think you are right there is day to day stuff where negativity can become just a bad habit that should be attended to. |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 03/30/2013 : 20:42:13
You see chickenbone. You have to first see the negativity and the truth, but in that reality change your approach to this situation and resolve the conflict within yourself. It is not enough just to see it and feed into it more. |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 03/30/2013 : 20:33:35
OK, this is a great topic.
I read Dr. Alexander's book also and I thought the section on how to handle negativity was fabulous and much more rational, realistic and scientific than the way most psychology books treat the subject.
My feeling is that if you are just feeding a bad mood with all sort of negative thoughts, then you probably need to stop that. Affirmations are good here.
On the other hand, if you have a genuinely bad situation on your hands, it is probably best to acknowledge it and try to make the best of it. Making space for negativity does not mean you have to feel really bad. I think repressing negativity is worst of all.
I went through a period of time when I first moved to Panama when I was seeing a spiritual healer and I was diligently keeping away all negativity. A lot of others I knew had been bitten by the same bug. That only lasted about a year and a half with me because something pretty bad happened and brought me down from my loft. I realized later that, if I had been willing to see the negative in my life developing and acknowledged it, I perhaps could have prevented the bad thing that happened because I would have seen it coming a mile away. And this is what I have observed with overly positive people. The higher they go, the harder they fall. They get themselves believing that nothing bad could possible happen to them and then WHAM. Let's face it, bad things happen to us all, both individually and collectively. It is how we handle negativity that matters.
Alix, you are so right about North Americans. It is almost demanded that people be completely positive. Nobody wants to hear anything but the positive when asking someone how they are. You are not supposed to be honest, but positive. If you can't tell someone how great you feel, then you are expected to keep your mouth shut. I think this is why North Americans have so much repressed rage. |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 03/30/2013 : 20:26:58
Pspa, I think the problem is you think you will get instantaneous results with this method and that simply is not true. Some of the stuff is so conditioned that it just takes time and learning to see the strain I talk about and then preventing it from happening when you encounter these situations again. So these reactions you can say are unconscious so you can't stop them. Once your aware you can have a say. This is the best way I can describe it and it takes time. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/30/2013 : 17:19:39
Maybe it's semantics, maybe not, but there have certainly been times when I was in a negative mood, in a lot of pain, or both, and I have tried using positive thoughts or affirmations or more neutrally just tried to control or detach from the negative thoughts, and the act of doing so itself felt like a great "strain" and felt very (to use James' word) cultivated. |
| alix |
Posted - 03/30/2013 : 17:03:35
It is exactly it Ace. To stop straining to be so upbeat and make some space or stop repressing the negativity when that arises.
In my country of origin when somebody asks "how are you?", it is okay to say "I make it go". That would be pretty weird here...
I was a mod on a symptoms forum and people (that clearly had TMS written all over) kept thanking and apologizing to each other constantly. So fake and so forced. Extremely revealing of TMS also. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/30/2013 : 16:38:19
To me this is the essential question. Do we have pain because of our negative emotions, or do we have pain because we have suppressed/ repressed our negative emotions. Although i am someone who likes to find common ground or synthesis where possible I think different people just have divergent views. |
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