| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 03/19/2013 : 19:22:53
Rik raised an important question on the TMS Wiki which i think is worth putting up here as well (along with my reply).
Once you have identified the repressed emotion what have you found is the best way to work with it to get it to stop expressing as TMS?
Rik (for the sake of others who may not have read other posts)- the most effective (in fact, the only effective) way known to modern neuroscience for losing the emotional sting which goes with either repressed or unconscious traumatic memories, or repressed negative aspects of our current experience, is captured under the term 'reconsolidation'. This is achieved by a process which changes how the brain stores away (consolidates) our experiences into the memory system. Upsetting experiences are easily consolidated and stored as they contain useful information for survival purposes- the emotional distress (with cognitive and physiological aspects) which they contain can then 'repeat' on a person forever, unless s/he undergoes a re-consolidation experience- this is what happens for a PTSD sufferer. During the reconsolidation process, the emotion experienced at the time of the process becomes 'built into' the autobiographical memory, such that the new laying down of the memory also contains the new emotional (more positive) context in which it was reconsolidated. Reconsolidation therapies will deliberately help the person to have a different, more positive experience during the process- this is not achieved by just telling people to be more positive, or to just let go of negative emotions or memories (see below).
The reconsolidation experience can result in many different ways, but there are some specific characteristics of the experience that neuroscience research demonstrates must be in place for the process to work. Firstly, the person must be in touch with the distressing experience, and must re-experience it in all its emotional/cognitive/physiological fullness. (This is achieved in EMDR via the set-up procedure which occurs prior to the bi-lateral stimulation. In coherence therapy, this is done via inviting the client to imaginally re-experience the upsetting event). Some people will criticise this as rehashing past negativity, but it is an essential step in the reconsolidation process (which, if successful, will result in no emotional distress in relation to a bad incident). Some people will cope with being in touch with the distressing event on their own just fine; but other people will be re-traumatised by doing this, and therefore will need the assistance of a therapist experienced in working with psychological trauma. I think it was Eric who posted that he is able to do 'inner-child work' on his own. What he reports sounds very much like successful self-applied reconsolidation- the result is that he no longer feels upset about the memory (Eric- can you elaborate on this?). It is also known that reconsolidation can occur spontaneously at times as well, with no prior expectation or knowledge that this is what is happening (I have an experience of this which i could share if anyone wants to know about it?). I am sure there are many people who, from a certain spontaneous experience, went from being highly distressed about something only to have the distress melt away like snow balls on a hot plate (that was my experience in relation to a depressive episode).
The second requirement of successful reconsolidation is that there needs to be an experience of dis-confirming emotional knowledge. This needs to be more than just a cognitive knowledge, and explains why approaches like CBT often don't work above placebo rates. The change needs to occur in the emotional brain (ie. limbic system and mid-brain areas), and not in the neo-cortex (thinking brain). Some people will be able to provide for themselves an emotional experience which disconfirms the emotional knowledge associated with the upsetting event, eg. " I am worthless and unlovable". Eric described going to his upset 'little boy' and giving him some of the nurturance he needs (all in his imagination, which the brain does not distinguish from reality) . This is an example of a different emotional experience (which effects the emotional brain- whereas the neo-cortex is indifferent to it), and which violates the emotional 'knowledge' obtained in the distressing event via a juxtaposition of expereinces- one is emotionally upsetting ("I am unworthy and unlovable"), while the other is emotionally uplifting (eg. seeing the young you being supported, loved, etc). Both of these experiences need to be felt, ie. a cognitive awareness of them is not sufficient to create reconsolidation.
When these two conflicting emotional knowings can be held together (and actually experienced, rather than just thought about), then reconsolidation can occur. The brain/mind needs to resolve the conflict between these two knowing by letting one go. This can then result in the person remaining aware that the bad experience happened, but no longer feeling the distressed emotion which has typically gone along with it. It is a succession of these bad experiences (and their emotional/cognitive/physiological components) which result in problems like poor self worth, extreme pessimism, fear of people and the world in general, chronic pain (and the associated anxiety, panic, anger, rage, depression etc that you would expect to go along with these). It is likely that any one distressed or pained person will need to have more than one reconsolidation experience to overcome their syndrome- but, bit by bit, this is entirely possible and regularly happens in effective therapy.
Where spontaneous reconsolidation does not occur, and where the person is not able to initiate their own reconsolidation experience (either because their trauma is too great, or they dont know how to), then certain types of psychotherapy are able to achieve this outcome. These are not therapies which remain working on only a cognitive level, such as CBT. Nor does it include the other excellent approaches such as mindfulness, Acceptance & Commitment Therapy, regular meditation, or other calming soothing techniques- as great at these are in their own right, all they can ever achieve is a counteracting of the distress, never a complete resolution (I discuss this further in the final chapter of 'The Hidden Psychology of Pain', and give these approaches the thumbs up for all sorts of reasons, but not because they will resolve chronic pain as they generally will not, unless they accidentally trigger a spontaneous reconsolidation experience).
The types of psychotherapies which are capable of producing reconsolidation experiences are referred to as 'transformative', as opposed to counteractive therapies. The list includes EMDR, Gestalt therapy, Emotion Focused Therapy, brief psychoanalytic therapies, Hakomi, Interpersonal Neurobiology, Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Therapy, NLP (not an exhaustive list- I'm sure there are many others that i do not know of) . And Coherence Therapy is designed specifically to replicate the reconsoldiation process as demonstrated in the neuroscience labs with animal and human subjects.
The fact that Sarno's psychologist colleagues had success in resolving chronic pain in patients indicates that the therapy they use also creates reconsolidation. There appears to be many paths to this type of emotional/psychological transformation via reconsolidation (and some approaches just wont do it). The much touted book-cure which most therapists have seen with TMS books is also an experience of reconsolidation, although this appears to occur via cognitive information. Where most people in our culture have been emersed in the the dominant culture of bio-mechanics (aka the mechanistic bias), which explains all chronic pain in relation to structural pathology, we have built up a solid 'understanding' of what generates chronic pain. This is our 'pain schema', and includes theories of causation as well as expectations about its outcome. When people come across TMS information for the first time, it can be such disconfirming information (vis-a-vis the mechanistic bias information) that a spontaneous reconsolidation can occur. This will be aided by the person's ability to apply the TMS model to themselves, and see what unconscious forms of distress could be relevant to their chronic pain. This will never happen to the person who is not seriously considering the model, as their emotional brain is not engaged in the information which they are processing- to them, it is just data, and dodgy data at that. And when it comes to making changes in the emotional brain, data will not do the job. Information which holds a degree of emotional importance to the person has a chance of effecting this change.
For more information about reconsolidation listen to interviews with Bruce Ecker on Shrink Rap Radio (a link from my home page: www.drjamesalexander-psychologist.com)
James |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| alix |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 15:51:41
One beneficial side effect of repeating affirmations is that when you do it, you are in the NOW. You quiet your mind chatter. There is no future and no past. Just the affirmations. That has the same effect as a mantra in meditation. |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 12:03:00
Yes chickenbone your right I am referring to people like yourself and also the ones that take longer. Dr James mentions the reconditioning does not get rid of pain, but I disagree on many levels because It has happened to me and countless others in my experience. I think we may be talking about the same process but we have different terms for it. Chickenbone I just think you need to use the affirmations longer and the keys longer to help overcome your sleep problem. If you had this problem since age 2, you will need usually a longer time to change this. As your tension set point comes down, then your symptoms will continue to reverse of the order they first appeared. My first tms symptom was the need for glasses and therefore I assume this will be the last for me to go. My eyesight has gotten a lot better, but I still have some ways to go. |
| chickenbone |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 11:46:59
Ace, I may be one of the people you are talking about. After doing the Keys for as little as 2 weeks, my symptoms were abating. Most importantly, the fear of the symptoms was much less. After about 6 weeks, most of my symptoms were completely gone. New symptoms would appear temporarily, but because the fear of symptoms was gone, I would just laugh at them and they would disappear fast. IT is really amazing how it worked. And my recovery from pain has lasted for 4 months so far and I can almost say that I know the pain won't come back as long as I allow (make space for)the feelings and emotions that were responsible for the pain. Of course, I still have the sleep problems that I have had all my life, at least back as far as 2 years old. Long before I had TMS. I think my mood problems are caused by my sleep problems. When I sleep ok, the world is good, when I sleep badly, the world is dark and dangerous. This is where I think I may benefit from EMDR. |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 06:46:36
Dear Dr. James thank you for your response. I have to say that the reconditioning I mention in my keys, does resolve the pain. Now the details of how this works I think is somehow related to a bringing down the set point of a revved up mind, in terms of neural circuits however I cannot comment. I just a patient do what I told her and in 1.5 months, most acute symptoms were gone. For others reading, remember that everyone based on their mental suggestability has different time frames and thats ok. Thanks again.
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| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 04:37:32
Birdie- you got it (according to my understanding). Conditioning involves creating new neural pathways which then compete with the existing problematic ones. The old ones may be triggered again by certain experiences. Reconsolidation involves activating the old neural pathway, then eradicating the emotional component of it-so it no longer emotionally hurts. Clearly, transformative therapies are only one way of having reconsolidation experiences. Normal life can throw them up; some self help strategies can do it as well (as Eric details); and even some counteractive therapies can chance upon reconsolidation experiences.
Ace1- if you want more detail, i'd suggest you read some of the neuroscience behind it- try Ecker et al's book- Unlocking the Emotional Brain (2012). Be warned though general readers- it aint a self help book and is really written primarily for psychologists and therapists etc. I am currently preparing an article which discusses reconsolidation for The Neuropsychotherapist- will let you know when its available on their website.
James |
| eric watson |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 22:17:16
remember guys im not talking about Dr Alexander's system as the flip is his system its just 1 element of many systems
if you want the DRs systems they will tell you as much as possible
I've never thought you could get it all in a book or 1 set of teachings till I got sarnos book. but for a lot that's not enough anymore than you can put
the ideas of all the different personality types there but there are parallels and when they cross
and work I work em. were not to limit ourselves in our learning's and never limit yourself on great tms teachers
as long as there base is sarno there really heading in the right direction
we have to let these guys blossom right
we've heard so much about how to do this and that
now we start to tell you and you want us to make it simpler
cant always be that simple but sarnos healing back pain is that simple and as the other tms systems are simple
learn add subtract but keep sarnos 12 reminders and key elements
do tensive thinking therapy and use your affirmations
if you want to learn the sumodalities work its in nlp - emdr - and fastereft and many other systems- you guys want more well heres more right
but we got to say ok where do I start
remember all the tms teachers will show you where to start
just don't try to get them debating whos right when really they both are |
| eric watson |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 21:07:14
Very good Ace1
although a lot of times even the stubborn minds can change if they don't try to refuse the process at the time.
See if they don't refuse they can be flipped.
but, if there like I was and have done tried a million things it could work but it would be better for those to do tms therapy with the tensive thinking therapy and then go for this flip ya know.
Were all the same there, tms therapy, not taking from but adding to the best system in the world.
Remember its always best to know sarno from front to back and the anger management therapy as in tensive reduction and affirmations calming the nerves then move to these more extensive therapies
As alix said he did it in reverse- he didn't get Sarno then he studies the other therapies and came back to the forum and then understood sarno.
We have to open our eyes to see what we don't see in all these systems.
I thought Sarno was simple till I got here and seen that many didn't just get it but the reason I went to it so fast was I had done extensive study in all the other styles.
See if you like, venture to these sub modalities if you like.
and not to say these both styles aren't conditioning anymore than frames or reframes are the same in generals there ace, yes.
the flip can be done on people in an instant
it can be done over a period of time
if you flip a now problem such as tms
then you have to do more flips also sometimes
but sometimes an instant change will be triggered because of facing and discharging the most definite negative emotion
If you ask me what’s the most definite negative emotion, id say what is it that bothers you most about your life?
but if you do the tensive thinking and affirmation therapy with the TMS therapy along with reconsolidation therapy then a system in that therapy would be a flip
See it really helps distinguish the bad memories from facing
our problems and people wouldn't have such fear
of looking back at their fears.
Clare Weekes has a facing style that works for many but what if her facing is too much for a man that has seen the thoughts of a war veteran.
Everyone here should know TMS therapy and your tensive thinking
and calming therapy with the reconsolidation if they
want to face the past - if it really bothers them and some as you know ace are frightened by spiders as much as a PTSD person is with the thoughts they have to carry.
its just 1 style - the flip been around for 40 yrs. now or more
Your therapy - AceI, it’s a frontrunner in the expansion of the
TMS world of knowledge therapy - I’m trying to keep it simple
when someone says this is brain overload
I can’t go into the exact how - there's as many sub modalities as frames reframes and conditioning like personality's
Folks need make it simple don't over rush and be calm.
Do 1 system at a time and build their minds
to this powerhouse of knowledge we have been blessed to receive.
1 system at a time, 1 step at a time and learn with the heart
the heart not the mind will show you the way
I think you see my point right
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| Ace1 |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 15:54:41
Eric I think I understand what your trying to say. You can change your thought on an issue that bothered you or traumatized you and in some cases that instantanous change of thought is all that is needed for it not to cause further problems, correct? I still call it reconditioning, but as I stated before I think this happens in some people bc they don't need the repetition bc their minds are more suggestible. So the person's mind has a new reaction to that thought even though it took very little work . So although technically it may be called something else, in my mind for all practice purposes the process is the same. If the person is able to "flip" as you have said from the first time around, good for them, they don't need the repetition. On the other hand, more stubborn minds will need the repetition. If my understanding above is not what you mean, please explain more. Thanks. |
| eric watson |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 14:49:57
quote:
Originally posted by Birdie78
I like to compare the two different approaches (reconditioning <--> reconsoilidation) with the picture of a pathway. Reconditioning in my understanding means there's a pathway I don't want to use any longer so I build up a new pathway by driving along as often as possible. That needs lot of repetition. In the result the new pathway is used but the old pathway still does exist and can theoretically - when a trigger is big enough - be reactivated.
Reconsolidation means that the old pathway is taken down and instead of it a new pathway is build up. So the old pathway doesn't exist any longer.
Please correct me if I understood something wrong.
Kind regards from Germany sends Birdie
you did good Birdie
remember both paths are very good for there needs
they both work and that matters |
| Birdie78 |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 14:15:33
I like to compare the two different approaches (reconditioning <--> reconsoilidation) with the picture of a pathway. Reconditioning in my understanding means there's a pathway I don't want to use any longer so I build up a new pathway by driving along as often as possible. That needs lot of repetition. In the result the new pathway is used but the old pathway still does exist and can theoretically - when a trigger is big enough - be reactivated.
Reconsolidation means that the old pathway is taken down and instead of it a new pathway is build up. So the old pathway doesn't exist any longer.
Please correct me if I understood something wrong.
Kind regards from Germany sends Birdie |
| eric watson |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 13:14:49
you got it alix
completely correct |
| alix |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 13:05:41
Thanks Eric, I completely agree. It is all complementary. I did recorded affirmations and FasterEFT and really benefited from both. As long as you put your heart into it and don't approach those methods with cynicism and skepticism "just to try", you will benefit. I truly felt the reconsolidation happening.
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| eric watson |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 12:46:26
as I said kalo
I cant explain it to ya
id have to show you or direct you
I think Dr. Alexander explained it well as anyone could
see Dr. alexander has walked the rd. to healing from tms too
trust him guys- he's not here to confuse- he just knows some big words that wouldn't hurt to look into
he as much as ace and myself are expanding the way to help
in the tms world |
| kalo |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 12:31:59
quote:
reconciliation is when you quickly eradicate a negative emotion that has been bothering you for years and it can lead to pain reduction-
Hi Eric,
Thanks for explaining reconcilation..Please, forgive me, but, how do you it?
Ugh, I am probably the only one not understanding...
Kalo |
| eric watson |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 12:00:48
Let me help DR. Alexander and Ace1, both my friends, to clear an issue
reconciliation is when you quickly eradicate a negative emotion that has been bothering you for years and it can lead to pain reduction-
I have talked about reconsolidation many times in my post here I just called it reframing-(Reframing is a general term ok so youd have to ask which post and what type of reframe) but mostly facing -releasing and a calming of the nerves thru meditations and affirmations is great but but sometimes the releasing will be impossible without the submodalites
that's what I call reconsolidation - reframing which is a form of nlp swish.
The names don't matter but in a way they do- see Dr. Alexander calls it reconsolidation because that's what the DR. that worked with the PTSD patients called it and when we have different Drs. with different knowledge their systems are named accordingly- Does it work is what matters and yes a flip or reframe or swish or reconsolidation do work with wonderful results and proven in the field. I use it all the time to help people, yesterday was my first time that I couldn't get a flip to occur and it was only because sometimes if not all the time we build walls that can only be overcome by trust, then reconditioning- then reconsolidation if needed.
Dr. alexander says talk to a therapist because you cant just tell a person to do a flip or reconsolidation- it has to be showed. Ace if you don't want to study these steps cause I know your a busy person then id love to show you a simple flip so you can know how fast and simple it can be- it works and is different than reconditioning
and we all know we are different but this style Dr. james talks of has again been proven extensively to get rid of distressing emotions
now reconditioning is where we would say like aces affirmations for 30 days with all out heart and soul then reap the benefits and also losing the tensive thinking as ace describes so great is reconditioning
the reframing as I have called it will be instant within an hour a life long issue can be discharged or it can mean the reframe of learning aces style so as in general reframes they are in that group the same- a reframe is when you get a better outcome right
the reconditioning takes 30 to 90 days.
sometimes a simple swish can help tons but look at all the negative things we have from the past- its like dominos though - when we knock 1 down the others begin to fall
and as we already know we don't have to know that 1 big repression as long as were hitting at the negative emotions then that's appropriate enough
Dr. Ace. and Dr.alexander compliment each other
They both are here to help- Thank god for these power houses of knowledge for with out them how would we know what the medical world is doing as in whose there for us- Ace1s keys have been a powerful antidote for the cure, but remember that we don't understand doesn't make it less effective
ask away guys im here to help
I want to clear the air for two guys that
are just to good for us even to compare
always learn how to clear your tensive thinking first
but remember others have to learn both styles- I did
see DR alexander is helping in all areas as ace is its just two schools that compliment each other- I know
Note- reconsolidation and nlp are different cause of the Drs that teach two systems with some aspects the same and others different ok |
| RageSootheRatio |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 11:53:32
Thanks, Ace ... I guess, as I grapple with my own understanding of this, is that reconditioning (like using affirmations) works for "learned strained habits" as in your personal example of "being in a rush" whereas reconsolidation is more for "losing the emotional sting which goes with either repressed or unconscious traumatic memories, or repressed negative aspects of our current experience."
I guess when you say "Obviously the technque he decribes is very similar to what i did" I was confused by that, because I thought the *TECHNIQUE* you used was more based on affirmations, whereas the *TECHNIQUES* that Dr James has been talking about have more to do with *depth therapy approaches" such as EMDR etc. And those seem very different to me. Perhaps when all is said and done, the REWIRING of the brain will look the same, in the (healed) end, but the actual techniques for getting there ARE quite different?
In practical terms, the "technique of getting there* is of great importance to those of us still in the process of "fixing our own problems." I do note that Dr Sarno talked about the "3 parts of the TMS/Stress beaker" ... PERSONALITY factors, (like rushing, perfectionism), PAST factors (like past traumas) and CURRENT life stressors ... And perhaps each of these are best addressed by different approaches/techniques, depending on the individual ?
thanks again for helping to clarify things! - RSR |
| kalo |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 11:21:00
quote:
TT QUOTE: Kalo, thanks for the reply, Chickenbone's most recent post is the same thing I would say to you.
And that is...Don't believe everything you read 
Kalo |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 11:01:13
Rsr. My need to be in a rush was a learned strained habit. I was not aware of it anymore, so you could call it unconscious if you would like. I had to recondition myself to this. Obviously the technque he decribes is very similar to what i did ( you have to remember that there is always a conscious part of your treatment otherwise you would never be able to treat yourself). Therefore, for the purpose of healing, I don't see a difference between recondition vs reconsolidation, except that the latter is more technical and may confuse some on this board. Maybe there is something I'm missing which is why I am asking dr Alexander to clarify the terms. This is not for my own learning purpose in anyway, but to make it clear to others. For Dr Alexander and I, we have no need to be on this board except to help others since we have already fixed own own problems for the most part. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 10:32:15
Kalo, thanks for the reply, Chickenbone's most recent post is the same thing I would say to you. |
| kalo |
Posted - 03/21/2013 : 09:46:02
quote:
Kalo- i hear your pain and confusion. The problem with a lot of therapies is that you can pour it out and pour it out, and nothing comes of this (other than having spend a lot of time and money- as you detail).
Dr. Alexander, thank you for the response. The only thing confusing is if Therapy is a waste of money, then why does Dr. Sarno refer 20 percent of his patients to seek therapist to get better. In listening to The Divide Mind, he gives examples of clients who had to dig in their childhood to figure out why they had pain. This is where it all gets confusing to me.
quote:
Kalo, this statement is confusing me, are you sure this is what you meant to say? Dr. Sarno says ANXIETY is a TMS equivalent.
Hi TT,
Well, what I meant is anxiety is a learned behavior is for me I have been thinking "FEARFUL" all my life. I learned it as a way to cope.
I suffer Hypochondria and that is a form of anxiety. It is a learned behavior. I know SteveO talks about getting rid of his back symptons only for it to be replaced with Anxiety.
I belive that is TMS, but, for most people who have suffered with fearful thinking all their lives, it then becomes learned. You learn to thinking fearfully. I hope that made sense
Kalo |
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